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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Dec 22, 2004, 03:44 AMTN Cop,
The manufacturer of the CVSA did not just admit that the device "is not capable of flat out 100% 'lie detection.'" The "National Institute of Truth Verification" acknowledged that CVSA is not capable of lie detection. It can't tell whether or not someone has spoken the truth. It's a quack device.
The fact that the original poster's son "failed" his CVSA "test" is indicative of nothing. This is not because an MZOC was administered instead of a ZOC. It is because the underlying procedure has no scientific basis and is without validity.
As a law enforcement officer (as I presume you are), you need to understand that while the CVSA may be useful for scaring admissions/confessions from gullible persons who don't understand that the "test" is a sham, the results that your computer spits out are absolutely meaningless, and it would be foolish to rely on them in any way.
The manufacturer of the CVSA did not just admit that the device "is not capable of flat out 100% 'lie detection.'" The "National Institute of Truth Verification" acknowledged that CVSA is not capable of lie detection. It can't tell whether or not someone has spoken the truth. It's a quack device.
The fact that the original poster's son "failed" his CVSA "test" is indicative of nothing. This is not because an MZOC was administered instead of a ZOC. It is because the underlying procedure has no scientific basis and is without validity.
As a law enforcement officer (as I presume you are), you need to understand that while the CVSA may be useful for scaring admissions/confessions from gullible persons who don't understand that the "test" is a sham, the results that your computer spits out are absolutely meaningless, and it would be foolish to rely on them in any way.
Posted by TN_Cop
- Dec 21, 2004, 08:32 PMI think we all know it's not capable of flat out 100% "Lie Detection", but it is a useful tool that helps when interviewing and interrogating individuals. It does show elevated stress patterns and an adept interviewer can use the tool and gain valuable knowledge in the case.
You are absolutely 100% correct that the results of the CVSA test are not admissible in a court of law, but the confessions or admissions during the pre and post test interview are. Its just another tool for the investigator to use while working a case. As you yourself acknowledged the NITV stated it wasn't admissible in a court of law and I don't think anyone who uses or promotes the machine will tell you its 100%.
TN Cop
You are absolutely 100% correct that the results of the CVSA test are not admissible in a court of law, but the confessions or admissions during the pre and post test interview are. Its just another tool for the investigator to use while working a case. As you yourself acknowledged the NITV stated it wasn't admissible in a court of law and I don't think anyone who uses or promotes the machine will tell you its 100%.
TN Cop
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Dec 21, 2004, 03:56 AMTN Cop,
It really makes no difference what variety of CVSA examination was administered (ZOC or MZOC). The bottom line is that, as admitted by the "National Institute of Truth Verification" in court, CVSA is not capable of lie detection.
It really makes no difference what variety of CVSA examination was administered (ZOC or MZOC). The bottom line is that, as admitted by the "National Institute of Truth Verification" in court, CVSA is not capable of lie detection.
Posted by TN_Cop
- Dec 21, 2004, 01:04 AMHoly shit I just realized this post was over a year old. Im new to the group and looked at the date and thought it was December of this year.
My fault
My fault
Posted by TN_Cop
- Dec 20, 2004, 10:25 PMShocked-
The question they asked your son was phrased wrong. Obviously they gave your son a MZOC format CVSA test. Of course your son is going to give a deceptive responce if they ask "Do you know who did it?" If there is only a limited number of people who had access to the safe I am sure he had an "idea" of who did it and in turn would read deceptive if he gave an answer of "no". Dont let this come between you and your son.
They should have given your son an ZOC format test that asks only two relavent questions, "were you present when any of the money from the safe was stolen" and "did you steal any of the money from the safe". This would have been the better option for the CVSA examiner and would have given you a better direction in finding out who stole the money.
As for my personal opinion Ike needs to go, im putting my money on him just from reading your post.
Thanks,
TN Cop
The question they asked your son was phrased wrong. Obviously they gave your son a MZOC format CVSA test. Of course your son is going to give a deceptive responce if they ask "Do you know who did it?" If there is only a limited number of people who had access to the safe I am sure he had an "idea" of who did it and in turn would read deceptive if he gave an answer of "no". Dont let this come between you and your son.
They should have given your son an ZOC format test that asks only two relavent questions, "were you present when any of the money from the safe was stolen" and "did you steal any of the money from the safe". This would have been the better option for the CVSA examiner and would have given you a better direction in finding out who stole the money.
As for my personal opinion Ike needs to go, im putting my money on him just from reading your post.
Thanks,
TN Cop
Posted by Kona
- Dec 30, 2003, 11:23 PMQuote from: warble on Dec 30, 2003, 08:41 PM
It's easy to crack the combination of older safes. For the time it (the money) was around any neighbor could have entered the home and stolen the cash. There are several tricks I can think of as a former locksmith that can be used to open a gun safe.
Warble,
I may be going out on a limb here, but I don't think that old Ike (22yrs old) and son of shocked (18 yrs old) were locksmiths in a former life.
What Ms Shocked has told us is that her son is a drug user, and that Ike had drug paraphernalia in his room, along with the fact that he had money wrappers in his coat pocket from the safe. She also stated that there was no forced entry into the house, or the safe. Furthermore, she said that they were the only two people allowed in the house. Now I may not be Dick Tracy, but I'd say that there's a pretty good chance that Ike or the son (or both) had something to do with the disappearance of the money. Someone smarter than me told me a long time ago, if it looks like shit and smells like shit, it's more than likely.......shit.
Of course I could be way off base here, and the neighbor with the high powered telescope could have spotted the combo, or possibly the safe cracking gang of neighborhood kids were the perpetrators of this heinous crime.
Cheers,
Kona
Posted by warble
- Dec 30, 2003, 08:41 PMQuote from: Kona on Dec 05, 2003, 05:40 AMLike George said, the CVSA is complete hocus pocus bullshit. Other than being used as an intimidation device to extract a confession, it is about as useful as a bottle of Jack Daniels at a Mormon convention.
I have a few questions........
1.) Who had the combination/key to your ex's "large steel safe?" Anyone besides your ex? Like maybe your......son?
2.) For Ike: How did the wrappers end up in your coat pocket?
3.) Why on earth would a person keep almost $10K cash in his house? Enquiring minds and all..........
Let's see Mom........your son uses pot and exstacy, and good old Ike has drug paraphanalia in his room, and money wrappers in his jacket pocket. It's just not looking real good for the home team here. Someone is lying, and you don't need a polygraph or a CVSA to figure that out.
Good luck in solving the mad money caper.
Cheers,
Kona
It's easy to crack the combination of older safes. For the time it (the money) was around any neighbor could have entered the home and stolen the cash. There are several tricks I can think of as a former locksmith that can be used to open a gun safe.
This police trick of accusing the family is standard operating procedure. It's what they do so they can close a case and get more money or a promotion to the department. They rarely ever do any real work except when there is an easy arrest.
My question is do you have any neighbors that know about safe? How many people knew of the location of the safe? Did the neighborhood kids know of the safe? Was the combination dial spun several times after the guns were removed? If not I can open it in 1 second...guaranteed... Can the neighbors see the combination from a window as the dial is being spun? It is a simple matter to use a high-powered telescope to get a combination.
Posted by warble
- Dec 30, 2003, 08:30 PMQuote from: shocked on Dec 04, 2003, 09:39 AM
<snip>
And now : Ike passed the test. The other boy passed
except for 1 question - "Do you know who did it?"
My son failed the test.
I'm shocked. He has never lied to us to my knowledge.
I always told him:I can handle anything you tell me,
but I cannot handle a lie.
He's no saint.He has experimented with pot and even
exstacy. He answered when I asked and I told him how I felt and pointed out all of the dangers. I have talked to
him for years about drugs and sex. Thank God he hates the taste of alcohol. And he adamently denies going
near the safe and any knowlege re:missing $.
I WANT TO BELIEVE MY SON, BUT I ALSO WANT TO GET HIM HELP IF NEEDED. Is his failure of the test absolute proof that he is lying??
I would appreciate any comments,insight or wisdom!!
THANK YOU!!!
[ont=Verdana][/font]
I've had a similar experience with a lie detector when I was young. In that case, I failed the test, was lied to by the tester, the police lied to me prior to the test, the tester told more lies and made threats, they lied to me when I asked about how to answer the questions, and they had my parents spying on me during the test through a one-way mirror. Yet they even lied to me about that fact when I asked about the mirror.
Oddly, I failed a similar question. They asked me if I knew who had stolen my parent's car while I was borrowing it during a date. Well the answer was yes I believed that I knew who had stolen the car, but I had no proof. So, I answered no even though I was certain of who had stolen the car.
The result was that the Seattle Police Department permanently and severely damaged by relationship with my parents. Had I have known that the police were setting me up for failure I would have insisted on having an Attorney present and refused to answer the questions.
Don't let these liars that administer these tests get away with damaging your family as they intentionally did with me. The tests simply do not work. And trust me when I say that they will tell any lie to get you to believe that they do work. Why I'll bet they had you sign all kinds of release of liability and surrender of rights forms.....
Posted by Kona
- Dec 05, 2003, 05:40 AMLike George said, the CVSA is complete hocus pocus bullshit. Other than being used as an intimidation device to extract a confession, it is about as useful as a bottle of Jack Daniels at a Mormon convention.
I have a few questions........
1.) Who had the combination/key to your ex's "large steel safe?" Anyone besides your ex? Like maybe your......son?
2.) For Ike: How did the wrappers end up in your coat pocket?
3.) Why on earth would a person keep almost $10K cash in his house? Enquiring minds and all..........
Let's see Mom........your son uses pot and exstacy, and good old Ike has drug paraphanalia in his room, and money wrappers in his jacket pocket. It's just not looking real good for the home team here. Someone is lying, and you don't need a polygraph or a CVSA to figure that out.
Good luck in solving the mad money caper.
Cheers,
Kona
I have a few questions........
1.) Who had the combination/key to your ex's "large steel safe?" Anyone besides your ex? Like maybe your......son?
2.) For Ike: How did the wrappers end up in your coat pocket?
3.) Why on earth would a person keep almost $10K cash in his house? Enquiring minds and all..........
Let's see Mom........your son uses pot and exstacy, and good old Ike has drug paraphanalia in his room, and money wrappers in his jacket pocket. It's just not looking real good for the home team here. Someone is lying, and you don't need a polygraph or a CVSA to figure that out.
Good luck in solving the mad money caper.
Cheers,
Kona
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Dec 04, 2003, 10:29 AMNo, your son's failing a CVSA "test" is not proof of any kind (let alone absolute proof) that he is lying. CVSA has no scientific basis whatsoever. Your son's failing and Ike's passing is evidence of nothing. If anything, your police department's placing any faith in this junk science is evidence of their own foolishness.
For a good overview of the scientific status of CVSA and other applications of voice stress analysis, see the 2nd edition of David T. Lykken's book, A Tremor in the Blood: Uses and Abuses of the Lie Detector. You might find it in your local public library, or in a nearby college library. In addition, see the messages in the CVSA and Other Voice Stress Applications forum.
For a good overview of the scientific status of CVSA and other applications of voice stress analysis, see the 2nd edition of David T. Lykken's book, A Tremor in the Blood: Uses and Abuses of the Lie Detector. You might find it in your local public library, or in a nearby college library. In addition, see the messages in the CVSA and Other Voice Stress Applications forum.
Posted by shocked
- Dec 04, 2003, 09:39 AMDespite my shattered state of mind, I will attempt to describe this event with some logic:
After returning from a 2 day deer hunt sunday, my ex
proceeded to place his rifle back in his large steel safe.
he then realized his "emergency/mad $" was missing.
For the last 5 yrs. he has made almost a "ritual" of checking his wallet each night and removing the $1 bills
and coins.It amounted to $8,363 (90%of this in $1bills)and several hundred dollars of rolled quarters.
There were no signs of any forced entry to the safe or house. Our 18yo son, a longtime friend(22yo male) named Ike who has lived with them over a yr and another 18yo friend of my son were the only people given permission to be there.The "guest" and my son have been friends since grade school and he has slept over and visited their home hundreds of times. Ike is considered "family". My ex took him "under his wing" when Ike's father died many yrs ago. He has always been a "role model" and compaion for my son. And he has even worked for my ex . the last year.
Expecting to find nothing, my ex and I searched EVERY
inch of the house for the $ or any indication/clue of what had happened. To our complete shock and dismay, we found one of the "wrappers" in the inside pocket of Ike's coat. The $1 bills were wrapped in bundles with the amt of each written on the wrapper.
This wrapper had $260 written on it. BUT the Worst was
the short straws and apparent drug parapanilia found hidden in Ike's room. We were both devastated and deeply concerned about an obvios drug problem.
Still in disbelief, we called the police to report the theft.
They took fingerprints and had each one of the boys take the cvsa. (Each one had already denied any knowledge of the theft and quickly agreed to the test
with no hesitation
And now : Ike passed the test. The other boy passed
except for 1 question - "Do you know who did it?"
My son failed the test.
I'm shocked. He has never lied to us to my knowledge.
I always told him:I can handle anything you tell me,
but I cannot handle a lie.
He's no saint.He has experimented with pot and even
exstacy. He answered when I asked and I told him how I felt and pointed out all of the dangers. I have talked to
him for years about drugs and sex. Thank God he hates the taste of alcohol. And he adamently denies going
near the safe and any knowlege re:missing $.
I WANT TO BELIEVE MY SON, BUT I ALSO WANT TO GET HIM HELP IF NEEDED. Is his failure of the test absolute proof that he is lying??
I would appreciate any comments,insight or wisdom!!
THANK YOU!!!
[ont=Verdana][/font]
After returning from a 2 day deer hunt sunday, my ex
proceeded to place his rifle back in his large steel safe.
he then realized his "emergency/mad $" was missing.
For the last 5 yrs. he has made almost a "ritual" of checking his wallet each night and removing the $1 bills
and coins.It amounted to $8,363 (90%of this in $1bills)and several hundred dollars of rolled quarters.
There were no signs of any forced entry to the safe or house. Our 18yo son, a longtime friend(22yo male) named Ike who has lived with them over a yr and another 18yo friend of my son were the only people given permission to be there.The "guest" and my son have been friends since grade school and he has slept over and visited their home hundreds of times. Ike is considered "family". My ex took him "under his wing" when Ike's father died many yrs ago. He has always been a "role model" and compaion for my son. And he has even worked for my ex . the last year.
Expecting to find nothing, my ex and I searched EVERY
inch of the house for the $ or any indication/clue of what had happened. To our complete shock and dismay, we found one of the "wrappers" in the inside pocket of Ike's coat. The $1 bills were wrapped in bundles with the amt of each written on the wrapper.
This wrapper had $260 written on it. BUT the Worst was
the short straws and apparent drug parapanilia found hidden in Ike's room. We were both devastated and deeply concerned about an obvios drug problem.
Still in disbelief, we called the police to report the theft.
They took fingerprints and had each one of the boys take the cvsa. (Each one had already denied any knowledge of the theft and quickly agreed to the test
with no hesitation
And now : Ike passed the test. The other boy passed
except for 1 question - "Do you know who did it?"
My son failed the test.
I'm shocked. He has never lied to us to my knowledge.
I always told him:I can handle anything you tell me,
but I cannot handle a lie.
He's no saint.He has experimented with pot and even
exstacy. He answered when I asked and I told him how I felt and pointed out all of the dangers. I have talked to
him for years about drugs and sex. Thank God he hates the taste of alcohol. And he adamently denies going
near the safe and any knowlege re:missing $.
I WANT TO BELIEVE MY SON, BUT I ALSO WANT TO GET HIM HELP IF NEEDED. Is his failure of the test absolute proof that he is lying?
?I would appreciate any comments,insight or wisdom!!
THANK YOU!!!
[ont=Verdana][/font]