- Welcome to AntiPolygraph.org Message Board.
A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by suethem
- Jul 08, 2003, 01:58 AMpolygraph/ CVSA / Facial recognition... its all the same. Same con men, different products.
Posted by orolan
- Jul 07, 2003, 09:43 PMQuoteOnce enough people realize that the product is defective and dangerous it will be recalled.And when it is it will be replaced by this, from our friends to the North.
QuoteThe ultimate goal upon which the justice system rests -- the search for truth -- has seen any number of sciences and pseudo-sciences come into existence. Some gradually fade away into disrepute, like hair analysis. Others -- DNA is probably the best example -- revolutionize everything from murder investigations to paternity suits.And the purveyor of this new "science"
Micro-expression analysis may be part of the next wave. Pioneered by University of California professor Paul Ekman about 30 years ago, the mapping and study of facial movements was until recently treated more as a theory than a science with tangible applications.
QuoteA television director by trade, Mr. Gough saw micro-expression analysis as a process that would allow him to marry his technical know-how with an abiding interest in law enforcement.And then we have the next-to-the-last paragraph of the article
QuoteOnly one truth-finding technique is specifically prohibited during job interviews in many jurisdictions, of which Ontario is one: polygraph testing.The whole article is quite interesting. Read it here:
http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20030707/PFMAKI07/TPScience/
Posted by guest from canada
- Jul 07, 2003, 09:25 PMLike you said Suethem, it is nothing more than a business. Dollars and cents. I would be willing to bet the farm that the only polygraph people supporting CVSA are from companies with monies and interests already divuldged into the CVSA technology. Polygraph people against the CVSA of course would have no eggs in the CVSA basket and are just trying to save their livelyhood. It would seem to me that the CVSA technology is much cheaper to aquire than the polygraph technology as you don't have to purchase a BP cuff, chest tubes or sweat sensors. I see a real fight in the distance.
The only problem with your line of thinking is when you look at the uphill battle we as antipoly crusaders have had trying to educate the public into seeing the lie behind the poly. The poly has been around since the 30's and it doesn't appear to be going anywhere within the LE community for the very reasons you posted. However, if we take the same timeline and apply it to the voice witch doctory that has surfaced, our grandchildren might see the fruits of our labor!
The only problem with your line of thinking is when you look at the uphill battle we as antipoly crusaders have had trying to educate the public into seeing the lie behind the poly. The poly has been around since the 30's and it doesn't appear to be going anywhere within the LE community for the very reasons you posted. However, if we take the same timeline and apply it to the voice witch doctory that has surfaced, our grandchildren might see the fruits of our labor!
Posted by suethem
- Jul 07, 2003, 08:19 PMGuest from Canada,
There are polygraph people that support CVSA and there are polygraph people who do not support CVSA.
Some polygraph companies actually battle each other, saying that the others products, software and hardware are sub- standard.
If you look at the National Institute of Truth Verification Website you can read some CVSA testimonials.
Whats interesting is that in most of the cases that were 'solved' by the machine, the suspect confessed.
Just like with the polygraph, there are many people who confess to crimes because they believe that the CVSA test is valid.
But what happens to those who have nothing to confess, but are labled as liars? They are just the price of American justice.
In the Stephanie Crow murder case (Escondido CA), the victim's brother was subjected to a CVSA and confessed after hours of games by a police 'expert'. The police hammered him and ignored reports of a prowler in the area. In the end the prowler was caught and found to have the blood of the dead girl on his shirt. The victim's brother is out of jail and the drifter/prowler is now being charged.
This is a prime example of how blind faith in any 'polygraph' is dangerous. The police only followed up on the drifter after they were shamed into action by the community and bad press.
In regards to scientific support- the polygraph has none.
The National Academy of Sciences shot down the polygraph as invalid and went as far as to say that it is a threat to national security.
LE/Intell still use is because there are still people that confess. They are addicted to the confessions and ignore the evidence that honest people are wrongly accused and the guilty people can pass using countermeasures.
The polygraph/CVSA is just a business, like any other. Once enough people realize that the product is defective and dangerous it will be recalled.
There are polygraph people that support CVSA and there are polygraph people who do not support CVSA.
Some polygraph companies actually battle each other, saying that the others products, software and hardware are sub- standard.
If you look at the National Institute of Truth Verification Website you can read some CVSA testimonials.
Whats interesting is that in most of the cases that were 'solved' by the machine, the suspect confessed.
Just like with the polygraph, there are many people who confess to crimes because they believe that the CVSA test is valid.
But what happens to those who have nothing to confess, but are labled as liars? They are just the price of American justice.
In the Stephanie Crow murder case (Escondido CA), the victim's brother was subjected to a CVSA and confessed after hours of games by a police 'expert'. The police hammered him and ignored reports of a prowler in the area. In the end the prowler was caught and found to have the blood of the dead girl on his shirt. The victim's brother is out of jail and the drifter/prowler is now being charged.
This is a prime example of how blind faith in any 'polygraph' is dangerous. The police only followed up on the drifter after they were shamed into action by the community and bad press.
In regards to scientific support- the polygraph has none.
The National Academy of Sciences shot down the polygraph as invalid and went as far as to say that it is a threat to national security.
LE/Intell still use is because there are still people that confess. They are addicted to the confessions and ignore the evidence that honest people are wrongly accused and the guilty people can pass using countermeasures.
The polygraph/CVSA is just a business, like any other. Once enough people realize that the product is defective and dangerous it will be recalled.
Posted by guest from canada
- Jul 07, 2003, 07:03 PMI have to laugh! I just checked out the polygraphplace web page. What a joke! One interesting thing I found was a statement there that regards the voice analysis technology as not having scientific support.
"Instruments that claim to record voice stress are not polygraphs and have not been shown to have scientific support."
Hee, hee. The anti poly people here have nothing to worry about. Just sit back and watch the voice technology and the pro-poly sides start tearing each other apart as they both vie for dollars and a foothold in the tea leaf reading/astrology/truth detection market.
Since when did the poly GAIN scientific support???
"Instruments that claim to record voice stress are not polygraphs and have not been shown to have scientific support."
Hee, hee. The anti poly people here have nothing to worry about. Just sit back and watch the voice technology and the pro-poly sides start tearing each other apart as they both vie for dollars and a foothold in the tea leaf reading/astrology/truth detection market.
Since when did the poly GAIN scientific support???
Posted by orolan
- Jul 06, 2003, 11:27 PMI keep getting this picture in my mind of Rosen trying to examine the comedian Stephen Wright. Those of you who have seen him know what I'm talking about. For those of you who haven't, he tells all of his jokes in a very "deadpan" monotone, with no facial expressions whatsoever.
Twoblock, I'll see if my daughter still has her paper on her computer.
Twoblock, I'll see if my daughter still has her paper on her computer.
Posted by Twoblock
- Jul 06, 2003, 11:04 PMFred F
Our so called "experts" in the FBI, CIA. etc. can't even accurately identify the voices on tapes attributed to Been Layen and Hishiney so how in hell does Rosen think he can tell if people are telling a lie from tapes. Sounds like another Wonder Woman lasso to me. Tapes capture so much background distortions.
Monotone means without change of pitch or key. one tone. People who talk this way would probably drive Rosen and his people crazy. Can you imagine what a single pitch sound wave staring them in the face would do to their egos? Would they acuse the subject of using countermeasures? Probably so.
Our so called "experts" in the FBI, CIA. etc. can't even accurately identify the voices on tapes attributed to Been Layen and Hishiney so how in hell does Rosen think he can tell if people are telling a lie from tapes. Sounds like another Wonder Woman lasso to me. Tapes capture so much background distortions.
Monotone means without change of pitch or key. one tone. People who talk this way would probably drive Rosen and his people crazy. Can you imagine what a single pitch sound wave staring them in the face would do to their egos? Would they acuse the subject of using countermeasures? Probably so.
Posted by Fred F.
- Jul 06, 2003, 10:05 PMQuote from: Twoblock on Jul 06, 2003, 12:40 PMI would guess the avg. person speaks in the 6 to 8 whole note range. Some people speak in monotone. Singing range much different. For instance - Johnny Cash has maybe 1 1/2 octave singing voice and Opera singers like Marilyn Horn and Maria Calas had maybe 3 1/2 octaves. (Some singers sing in monotone).
Twoblock,
I wonder how Mr. Rosen can claim to have such success with TAPED voices. Can a tape capture the true essence of ones voice? I am a bit skeptical of LEA Detections claim that they can get accurate "readings" from tapes. With the advent of CD's MP3's and digital recording which provide far more accurate recording than tape, Rosens claims seem a little far fetched.
In regards to monotones, are there measureable pitch variations?
Orolan,
I would concur with you on your daughters friend. Maybe you can contact LEA and ask them if
Spasmodic Dysphonia, the Adductor variant will affect the "readings"
Fred F.
Posted by Twoblock
- Jul 06, 2003, 02:08 PMOrlan
I know nothing about Spasmodic Dysphonia. However, in my years of performing, I have known a couple of would be performers like your daughter's friend. Both were good when singing in their living rooms but, put them on stage, in front of an audience (stage fright stress) and every note was extremely sharp. One was able to overcome her stage fright and went on to become a good singer. The other never could overcome her affliction and chose another profession. Back then, I don't think doctors had a name for it.
My opinion is: Yes, these people would be set for failure in voice analysis tests. Stress, fear, anger etc. usually makes people's voices get a little higher. These factors will affect the outcome of the polygraph or any other "truth finding" machines.
I would like to read your daughter's paper.
I know nothing about Spasmodic Dysphonia. However, in my years of performing, I have known a couple of would be performers like your daughter's friend. Both were good when singing in their living rooms but, put them on stage, in front of an audience (stage fright stress) and every note was extremely sharp. One was able to overcome her stage fright and went on to become a good singer. The other never could overcome her affliction and chose another profession. Back then, I don't think doctors had a name for it.
My opinion is: Yes, these people would be set for failure in voice analysis tests. Stress, fear, anger etc. usually makes people's voices get a little higher. These factors will affect the outcome of the polygraph or any other "truth finding" machines.
I would like to read your daughter's paper.
Posted by Twoblock
- Jul 06, 2003, 12:40 PMFred F.
I would guess the avg. person speaks in the 6 to 8 whole note range. Some people speak in monotone. Singing range much different. For instance - Johnny Cash has maybe 1 1/2 octave singing voice and Opera singers like Marilyn Horn and Maria Calas had maybe 3 1/2 octaves. (Some singers sing in monotone).
Marty
Wind instruments are easily tuned. Years ago I used to play trombone and some days, probably when tired, I would play flat. For that particular concert I would have to tune "up" slightly. The tuning mechanism is at the back of the isntrument.
BTW, for people not musically inclined, the A in front of the 440 means the key of A.
Bottom line. I would say voice analysis has, maybe, the validity of CQT polygraph. It MIGHT be able to gain a confession simply out of fear of the instrument.
I would guess the avg. person speaks in the 6 to 8 whole note range. Some people speak in monotone. Singing range much different. For instance - Johnny Cash has maybe 1 1/2 octave singing voice and Opera singers like Marilyn Horn and Maria Calas had maybe 3 1/2 octaves. (Some singers sing in monotone).
Marty
Wind instruments are easily tuned. Years ago I used to play trombone and some days, probably when tired, I would play flat. For that particular concert I would have to tune "up" slightly. The tuning mechanism is at the back of the isntrument.
BTW, for people not musically inclined, the A in front of the 440 means the key of A.
Bottom line. I would say voice analysis has, maybe, the validity of CQT polygraph. It MIGHT be able to gain a confession simply out of fear of the instrument.
Posted by orolan
- Jul 06, 2003, 12:11 PMTwoblock,
My daughter has a classmate in her Applied Voice class who has Spasmodic Dysphonia, the Adductor variant. Her voice is all over the scale, varying in pitch, loudness, hoarseness, etc. And the more "stressed out" she gets, the worse it gets. This girl went to 8 different doctors over a 10-year period before her condition was properly diagnosed. My daughter ended up writing a paper about the girl for her Psych class, which is how I found out about it.
What do you know about this, and doesn't it seem that a person with this affliction is guaranteed to fail any type of voice-stress analysis?
My daughter has a classmate in her Applied Voice class who has Spasmodic Dysphonia, the Adductor variant. Her voice is all over the scale, varying in pitch, loudness, hoarseness, etc. And the more "stressed out" she gets, the worse it gets. This girl went to 8 different doctors over a 10-year period before her condition was properly diagnosed. My daughter ended up writing a paper about the girl for her Psych class, which is how I found out about it.
What do you know about this, and doesn't it seem that a person with this affliction is guaranteed to fail any type of voice-stress analysis?
Posted by Fred F.
- Jul 05, 2003, 11:33 PMTwoBlock/Marty
It seems that this "technology has more "holes" in it then Mr. Rosen wants you to know.
Another thing that puzzles me since you say voice is affected by atmospheric and other conditions, How can he claim to have success analyzing recorded voices? If Chet Atkins has 2500 chord variations, then it would be safe to assume that he has more voice pitch variations?
TwoBlock, Do you have an educated guess to the number of pitch variations in the average person?
Fred F.
It seems that this "technology has more "holes" in it then Mr. Rosen wants you to know.
Another thing that puzzles me since you say voice is affected by atmospheric and other conditions, How can he claim to have success analyzing recorded voices? If Chet Atkins has 2500 chord variations, then it would be safe to assume that he has more voice pitch variations?
TwoBlock, Do you have an educated guess to the number of pitch variations in the average person?
Fred F.
Posted by Marty
- Jul 05, 2003, 10:02 PMTwoblock,
Very interesting! I had never considered the impact of altitude on pitch. I assume common practice would be to adjust string instruments (which wouldn't be changed by altitude) to match the pitch shift of wind instruments since it would be presumably harder (or impossible) to tune them for the shift in the speed of sound.
-Marty
Very interesting! I had never considered the impact of altitude on pitch. I assume common practice would be to adjust string instruments (which wouldn't be changed by altitude) to match the pitch shift of wind instruments since it would be presumably harder (or impossible) to tune them for the shift in the speed of sound.
-Marty
Posted by Twoblock
- Jul 04, 2003, 06:03 PMFred F
A440 means that the wave length contains 440 beats a second at sea level. In the mountains of Colorado it would be something like 442. An A440 tuning fork at sea level would be off at 6000 ft. because of the different atmospheric pressure. Thefore my voice C would be off. Is Rosen going to keep his subjects at sea level while testing?
As to the 18,000 voice patterns, I would think there would be many more. Chet Atkins, my guitar idol and who I patterned my guitar playing after, knew over 2500 different chord variations. Each has many voice variations.
I just don't buy voice analysis of any kind.
A440 means that the wave length contains 440 beats a second at sea level. In the mountains of Colorado it would be something like 442. An A440 tuning fork at sea level would be off at 6000 ft. because of the different atmospheric pressure. Thefore my voice C would be off. Is Rosen going to keep his subjects at sea level while testing?
As to the 18,000 voice patterns, I would think there would be many more. Chet Atkins, my guitar idol and who I patterned my guitar playing after, knew over 2500 different chord variations. Each has many voice variations.
I just don't buy voice analysis of any kind.
Posted by Fred F.
- Jul 04, 2003, 12:30 AMQuote from: Twoblock on Jul 01, 2003, 01:49 AMFred F
I wonder if Harry Rosen would care to list his mining and oil exploits. This sounds like it is another one of his promotion schemes. After all it sounds like he used someone else's product and supposedly "improved" it. This scenareo sounds familiar. I am, also, familiar with mining and oil promotions.
Anyone with a trained voice, such as a singer, could knock the hell out of any voice analysis instrument. As well as being a miner, I am also a singer. I can hit an A4/40 C on demand without a pitch pipe.
I wonder if LEA Detection would put up a 10 to 5 deal like the polygrapher in Texas?
TwoBlock,
Rosen says
QuoteWe're trying not to oversell it -- but it works," says the World War II veteran
He did manage to get the LA County Sheriff's Dept. to use this "technology" and have "results" of weeding out "innocent" people. What happened to investigations done the old fashioned way? Too many criiminals getting away?
I also would like to see how his mining and oil exploits went as well. He obviously didn't do too well.
Can you explain the voice pitch A4/40 C? Rosen claims to have 18,000 voice "patterns"but you would think that there are far more than that.
Fred F.