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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by jen19
- Nov 21, 2002, 04:10 PMThank you Fair Chance!
Posted by Fair Chance
- Nov 21, 2002, 03:11 PMQuote from: jen19 on Nov 21, 2002, 02:14 PM
This just happened to me! I went for a polygraph with the FBI. At the time they told me my results were unsuccessful and I just got a letter in the mail saying that I am no longer being considered for employment. For the same reasons as you, I would like to appeal. Since you are going through this now, I was hoping you could tell me the appeal procedures, who to contact, etc. I would like to start the appeal process as soon as possible.
Jen
Dear jen19,
1. Address your letter to the department head (most probably Chief of Application Divsion) which appears on your notification letter. Do not send any correspondance to the regional office or Director at this time (the FBI, like the military and other agencies gets their feathers ruffled if you jump the chain of command and will only refer your letter back to this division anyway). Start low and work your way up from this point according to their response.
2. Only use certified return receipt mail for proof of delivery date and division.
3. I know you are frustrated and somewhat angry at being "not acceptable" so allow yourself enough time to "cool down" to keep any bitterness and personal attacks from detracting from your argument.
4. Describe any discrepancies that occured which would convince a reasonable person that the test was not administered in good faith or not according to proper test proceedures.
5. Document all serious accusations and your denials to these accusation with any pertinent facts to back them up.
6. Be factual and do not come to any conclusions.
7. This letter will become part of your permanent file so write it with care and have some one you trust (or many) to proof read it and give you what they get out of it.
Here is the tough part, allow at least eight weeks from time of delivery for a response. Follow up with letters every four weeks as necessary until you get a response (same person and address of the first letter with copies of previous letters enclosed).
Hope this helps.
Posted by jen19
- Nov 21, 2002, 02:14 PMThis just happened to me! I went for a polygraph with the FBI. At the time they told me my results were unsuccessful and I just got a letter in the mail saying that I am no longer being considered for employment. For the same reasons as you, I would like to appeal. Since you are going through this now, I was hoping you could tell me the appeal procedures, who to contact, etc. I would like to start the appeal process as soon as possible.
Jen
Jen
Posted by Fair Chance
- Nov 21, 2002, 11:39 AMQuote from: Marty on Nov 21, 2002, 02:58 AM
Keep in mind that "skilled resources" that are lost to false positives in LE almost always find gainful employment in other sectors. The country still benefits. Maybe they are better off. Personally, I'd rather make a smaller (or maybe bigger) honest living than a dishonest one or submit to voo-doo to attain a position.
-Marty
Dear Marty,
Hindsight being 20-20, I definitely would have reservations about applying for any job requiring a polygraph pre-screening test again. I have nothing to hide but I now know that its validity makes it nothing more then a crapshoot if you pass or not. I think that my integrity and honor should not be gambled on a crapshoot.
If I am offered another polygraph on my appeal, I will be looking forward to the whole experience like I would be looking forward to a root canal. I do not need any job enough to humiliate myself knowing what I now know about the polygraph testing. I have decided that my current Federal employer is a gem compared to the FBI. My recognition of this will help me focus better on what I do now. I will not wonder if the grass is greener on the other side because I have found that it is an illusion and the grass taste awful.
I do not want to embaress the FBI, they have enough problems to deal with right now, but if an examiner ever tries to treat me the way that I have been treated, I will insist on speaking to the Special Agent Duty Officer before I leave about it.
I have decided that I do not want employment from them but I do want my integrety restored to the point it was before I applied. I have made some successful contact concerning my appeal and I hope to allow the FBI to save face as well as restoring my own integrity.
Some would argure that I should draw as much "blood" from the FBI as possible as punishment for what they put me through. I witness the government being imperfect in small ways almost everyday. I will instead keep trying to constructively engage fellow workers whenever possible about my personal experience and let them draw their own conclusions about its validity. I have interactions with a huge amount of law enforcement personnel and this impact will be significant by my standards.
Regards
Posted by Seeker
- Nov 21, 2002, 03:14 AMMarty:
Yes, of course I, like yourself would much rather prefer to make an honest (and most often more financially positive) living than that which is possible within LE. That still fails to answer for the very real loss to our National Security because of this poly nonsense. Yes, there are some who are employed, but there are many more needed. This voodoo has caused many desperately needed applicants to either be hessitant to apply or to be disreguarded alltogether due to some Inconclusive or DI result. The bottom line is that poly screening is absurd and invalid. To base the process soley upon the results of some charlatan is utterly irresponsible!
I personally know many of the ME community who volunteer their time and efforts for the good of the National Security of the USA, but they refuse to participate in this three ring circus to do so. When I hear the LE agencies, especially at the Federal Level complain about lack of linguists, lack of people who can penetrate the ME communities, I have to wonder why this is. I know for certain that it is not that the ME peoples are not willing or interested in assisting their beloved new home, the USA, but moreso because of the asinine bureacracy that they must endure to do so.
When the poly is junked, as I am sure it will be, I am willing to wager that those much needed individuals will step up to the plate and offer all that they have.
Yes, of course I, like yourself would much rather prefer to make an honest (and most often more financially positive) living than that which is possible within LE. That still fails to answer for the very real loss to our National Security because of this poly nonsense. Yes, there are some who are employed, but there are many more needed. This voodoo has caused many desperately needed applicants to either be hessitant to apply or to be disreguarded alltogether due to some Inconclusive or DI result. The bottom line is that poly screening is absurd and invalid. To base the process soley upon the results of some charlatan is utterly irresponsible!
I personally know many of the ME community who volunteer their time and efforts for the good of the National Security of the USA, but they refuse to participate in this three ring circus to do so. When I hear the LE agencies, especially at the Federal Level complain about lack of linguists, lack of people who can penetrate the ME communities, I have to wonder why this is. I know for certain that it is not that the ME peoples are not willing or interested in assisting their beloved new home, the USA, but moreso because of the asinine bureacracy that they must endure to do so.
When the poly is junked, as I am sure it will be, I am willing to wager that those much needed individuals will step up to the plate and offer all that they have.
Posted by Marty
- Nov 21, 2002, 02:58 AMQuote from: Seeker on Nov 20, 2002, 06:22 AM
There is just no valid excuse for the loss of skilled resources to our national security enforcement! I am utterly amazed at how the pro-polygrah community fails to reasonably address this concern.
Keep in mind that "skilled resources" that are lost to false positives in LE almost always find gainful employment in other sectors. The country still benefits. Maybe they are better off. Personally, I'd rather make a smaller (or maybe bigger) honest living than a dishonest one or submit to voo-doo to attain a position.
-Marty
Posted by Seeker
- Nov 20, 2002, 06:22 AMFair Chance:
I totally agree with you. It is so troubling that there are those employed in the LE community who are nothing but fancy liars.
I think that for too long this fact has been ignored. There is just no valid excuse for the loss of skilled resources to our national security enforcement! I am utterly amazed at how the pro-polygrah community fails to reasonably address this concern.
I hate to burst their bubbles, but the utility of the polygraph is coming to a serious end. The fautiness of the polygraph is being made public more and more since the NAS released its report. As more citizens and lawmakers become aware of this joke, I do believe we will see that scintilla amount of utility go right along to the junk pile with the validity issues.
I totally agree with you. It is so troubling that there are those employed in the LE community who are nothing but fancy liars.
I think that for too long this fact has been ignored. There is just no valid excuse for the loss of skilled resources to our national security enforcement! I am utterly amazed at how the pro-polygrah community fails to reasonably address this concern.
I hate to burst their bubbles, but the utility of the polygraph is coming to a serious end. The fautiness of the polygraph is being made public more and more since the NAS released its report. As more citizens and lawmakers become aware of this joke, I do believe we will see that scintilla amount of utility go right along to the junk pile with the validity issues.
Posted by Fair Chance
- Nov 20, 2002, 12:30 AMQuote from: lietoallandtoallagoodnite on Nov 19, 2002, 09:36 PM
dont sweat the CVSA, just do like D. Williams said on sting the polygraph. thats what i did and i took the CVSA the 1st time and passed. nothing to hide here, lol YEA RIGHT
To who ever might be applying for a law enforcement job:
Whether or not you expect to take the polygraph, CVSA, or other exam, please never try to hide relevant application facts. Many of these facts will not be disqualifying if they are presented with proper clarification. The agencies in question are protecting YOUR career by insuring that YOUR past does not come back to bite you in the _ss! The last thing you need is someone who has information which would look damaging to your career in their pocket with the perfect opportunity to blackmail or compromise your ability to do your job in the future. If some newspaper reporter digs something up on your past, it better be in your jacket if it appears inappropriate. No agency or supervisor wants to be in the funny pages because you decided that some past incident was "an exception" without their knowledge.
I do not believe that using CVSA or polygraph is an accurate means to tell if an applicant is lying or acceptable for a position and it would bother me that some applicants are lying about their past and being given the benefit of a doubt by passing their polygraph (or CVSA) test. For the same reason I told the absolute truth and was not found "within acceptable parameters," there is someone out there that did pass and might be lying. Aside from any money or political arguments, this is troubling and needs to be repaired as soon as possible.
Posted by lietoallandtoallagoodnite
- Nov 19, 2002, 09:36 PMdont sweat the CVSA, just do like D. Williams said on sting the polygraph. thats what i did and i took the CVSA the 1st time and passed . nothing to hide here, lol YEA RIGHT 
. nothing to hide here, lol YEA RIGHT Posted by Fair Chance
- Oct 25, 2002, 11:54 AMDustin,
Did they do any type of background check before your CVS experience?
Did they ask you about a specific incident (or incidents)?
Did you feel as if they knew something about you during your questions or did it feel like a fishing expedition?
Was this for pre-employment?
I am interested because most of the agencies state that the polygraph is part of a "total" security package but most background investigations are not started until after the polygraph exam.
Did they do any type of background check before your CVS experience?
Did they ask you about a specific incident (or incidents)?
Did you feel as if they knew something about you during your questions or did it feel like a fishing expedition?
Was this for pre-employment?
I am interested because most of the agencies state that the polygraph is part of a "total" security package but most background investigations are not started until after the polygraph exam.
Posted by Dustin
- Oct 25, 2002, 03:02 AMeisenmann,
Its so funny, your story is almost identical to my experience; only exception, my examiner was right on top of things, and only had to repeat on two questions. But, after he finished he walked out of the room to print out the chart, then came back and discuss it with me. Basically he told me that two questions I reacted to were in teh area of thefts from work. (Fortunatly after reading The Lie Behind I knew that I had to stick to my original explanation and didn't offer any additional information). But after I finished the test, there really wasn't much of an interview aside from him probing me about the two I reacted to. And, like you, I was told he'd just write his report and submit it to the HR department and they'd make the decision. Hopefully I did ok, I guess I'll hear sometime in the upcoming week. But, if they DQ me I do plan to fight and appeal this, because I think that I gave no reason to show any deception, but who knows what the examiner will write in his report.
Its so funny, your story is almost identical to my experience; only exception, my examiner was right on top of things, and only had to repeat on two questions. But, after he finished he walked out of the room to print out the chart, then came back and discuss it with me. Basically he told me that two questions I reacted to were in teh area of thefts from work. (Fortunatly after reading The Lie Behind I knew that I had to stick to my original explanation and didn't offer any additional information). But after I finished the test, there really wasn't much of an interview aside from him probing me about the two I reacted to. And, like you, I was told he'd just write his report and submit it to the HR department and they'd make the decision. Hopefully I did ok, I guess I'll hear sometime in the upcoming week. But, if they DQ me I do plan to fight and appeal this, because I think that I gave no reason to show any deception, but who knows what the examiner will write in his report.
Posted by eisenmann372002
- Sep 24, 2002, 05:44 PMAh, I completely forgot about this thread. Glad I checked up on my history! Ihavenoprivacy, if you're still here......yep, I passed the CVSA (hence my more recent posts, starting about three days ago), but apparently the fact that I went through *successful* substance abuse rehabilitation 12 years ago was a problem for them. Everyone has their own stories, I suppose...
Posted by FormerOfficer
- Jul 16, 2002, 05:42 PMQuote from: I-have-no-privacy on Jul 15, 2002, 06:33 PM
eisenmann372002,
Thank you for responding. I personally am about a month away from my CVSA test, the very first one ever, and that explains my interest and anxiety in getting more information. About sending them e-mails I would see that as being a very safe method as well. Who knows, maybe they have a CVSA machine hooked up to the telephone, and decide you lied when checking on your statusI'm checking the board on a daily basis, itching to find out more and more. Thanks again for the respond, and I look forward to hear more from you.
hey bud, don't sweat it. It is a breeze. Just remain calm and keep your mind on "its a small world after all" and answer calmly.....
You'll pass. If the tester tries to say you're a liar, look him straight in the eyes and tell him you're telling the complete truth.
NEVER admit anything, deny everything.
Posted by FormerOfficer
- Jul 16, 2002, 05:39 PMQuote from: Polycop on Jun 17, 2002, 06:35 PM
And judging by your own statements regarding your lack of honesty, I suspect you will be more than happy to accept my bribe and not give me a ticket...
Polycop...
Umm, No thanks - perhaps that is the way you do business, but I don't go that way. Not all is black and white.
The sooner you learn that, the sooner you'll suceed in life, and stop being a loser.....
BTW - I was recently hired by a local agency, and they were very happy to have me.
Posted by I-have-no-privacy
- Jul 15, 2002, 06:33 PMeisenmann372002,
Thank you for responding. I personally am about a month away from my CVSA test, the very first one ever, and that explains my interest and anxiety in getting more information. About sending them e-mails I would see that as being a very safe method as well. Who knows, maybe they have a CVSA machine hooked up to the telephone, and decide you lied when checking on your status I'm checking the board on a daily basis, itching to find out more and more. Thanks again for the respond, and I look forward to hear more from you.
Thank you for responding. I personally am about a month away from my CVSA test, the very first one ever, and that explains my interest and anxiety in getting more information. About sending them e-mails I would see that as being a very safe method as well. Who knows, maybe they have a CVSA machine hooked up to the telephone, and decide you lied when checking on your status
I'm checking the board on a daily basis, itching to find out more and more. Thanks again for the respond, and I look forward to hear more from you.