- Welcome to AntiPolygraph.org Message Board.
A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by Bill_Brown
- Jul 09, 2012, 08:08 PMAnd I might add to Sergeant1107's post, the stress he is talking about would not be to any question on the polygraph examination, it would be observed throughout the entire exam and should not affect any particular question on the examination. It is simply the norm for that individual. There would be no mental conflict to any particular question, only overall "stress".
Posted by Sergeant1107
- Jul 01, 2012, 10:03 PMAn officer I met at an instructor development class is a tactical officer in a large city. He does lots of search warrants on drug houses - what is often called "tumultuous entry." In other words, he is in the stack outside the door when they yell "Police! Search warrant!" and smash the door open with a battering ram. He has probably had more guns pointed at his face than I have seen in my lifetime. His coworkers all describe him as being utterly cool and composed during every raid, even when taking fire or having someone rush him with a knife or a baseball bat.
In this class, we all had to develop a lesson plan and teach ten minutes of it in front of everyone else. I thought this guy was going to have a heart attack. He was beet-red in the face, was nearly hyperventilating, and he could barely remember the title of his presentation. He was literally terrified of getting up in front of a group and speaking. And the group he was teaching was all other cops he knew at least to some degree.
If someone going through the arduous and tedious police application process is wrongly accused of some crime that will derail their chances of ever becoming a cop, it is entirely normal if they show stress. Sometimes a great deal of stress. The fact that they do is entirely unrelated to how they will or will not function under stress on the job.
In this class, we all had to develop a lesson plan and teach ten minutes of it in front of everyone else. I thought this guy was going to have a heart attack. He was beet-red in the face, was nearly hyperventilating, and he could barely remember the title of his presentation. He was literally terrified of getting up in front of a group and speaking. And the group he was teaching was all other cops he knew at least to some degree.
If someone going through the arduous and tedious police application process is wrongly accused of some crime that will derail their chances of ever becoming a cop, it is entirely normal if they show stress. Sometimes a great deal of stress. The fact that they do is entirely unrelated to how they will or will not function under stress on the job.
Posted by Bill_Brown
- Jun 30, 2012, 01:47 PMBill Brown,
Let me ask you two questions because you're obviously the person with the most experience here:
1) When a person's mental state changes from calm to stressed, are there physiological indications of such changes?
2) If physiological changes occur, is the polygraph able to record those changes?
Let me restate what you have said:
1) When a persons brain perceives a threat are there physiological indications of such changes?
Yes, relative blood pressure changes, GSR changes and changes in respiration are generally observed.
2) Is polygraph able to record these changes?
Yes
I have restated your supposition using terms better understood in the polygraph arena and discarded your words regarding "Calm and Stressed". Current studies have shown that a conflict in mental processes may cause the neurotransmitters in the brain to activate and cause physiological changes to occur. The recording instrument, a polygraph, records these changes and the examiner then studies the changes and renders an opinion. All physiological changes are not recorded by the instrument pupillary dilation being one of several.
I believe you should study polygraph more so your statements reflect the proper wording to make your point. Attacks on other persons posting in reply to your statements does not bolster your argument. (and does not reflect well on your ability to demonstrate sound reasoning). I do hope this was not offensive to you.
You may wish to look at Stefano and Quikfixe's posting history to get a clear picture of their background and knowledge. Both have an abundance of knowledge in this area. I suspect equal to or surpassing my own knowledge base.
Posted by stefano
- Jun 29, 2012, 04:30 PMQuotethe only person who knows the truth is the person taking the exam.Duck,
You hit the nail on the head.
Posted by lame duck
- Jun 29, 2012, 02:33 PMi dont know about the composure argument. i think staying calm helps but thats good advice for anything you do.
the real question is how can you prove a false positive? the only person who knows the truth is the person taking the exam. theres no way to quantify that its truly a false positive, true positive, false negative or true negative. if you could quantify it then the method you used to do so would replace the polygraph.
the real question is how can you prove a false positive? the only person who knows the truth is the person taking the exam. theres no way to quantify that its truly a false positive, true positive, false negative or true negative. if you could quantify it then the method you used to do so would replace the polygraph.
Posted by Sergeant1107
- Jun 29, 2012, 06:50 AMQuote from: Gore Sassoon on Jun 26, 2012, 02:23 PMLet me preface by saying that if you get a false positive then that sucks. But a good question is why shouldn't you be rejected for a government position if you produce a false positive?This seems to assume that false positives consist of a false accusation of deception by the polygraph operator, followed by a loss of composure by the examinee.
Polygraphs are good at gauging composure, which is a critical component in working with security and intelligence. If you're rattled by thoughts of drugs, terrorism or confrontation (e.g. false accusations) then government work probably isn't for you.
That is not how my false positives went. Do you have any data to show what percentage of false positives occur that way?
And, BTW, this seems more like rationalization than anything else. The polygraph is not touted as a way to measure someone's composure under stressful conditions - it is purported to be a scientifically valid method of detecting deception. If it is unable to do that accurately, as in the case of a false positive, the polygraph and its operator have utterly failed in their mission. To try and claim that they have succeeded in some tangential fashion by showing that the examinee loses composure under stress is disingenuous at best.
Posted by stefano
- Jun 28, 2012, 10:11 AMGee, I have finally been put in my place by a real expert. I feel so humble now.
"toodles" ?
get my head of my "bum" ?
This is one for the books!
"toodles" ?
get my head of my "bum" ?
This is one for the books!
Posted by Gore Sassoon
- Jun 28, 2012, 09:48 AMStefano,
That's what I thought.
Let me leave you with some final words to chew on. Your only experience with the polygraph is the one time you failed it. You're incapable of articulating your thoughts (if you even have any), you're incapable of critical thinking and you're a failure. It's no wonder the government rejected you.
Toodles,
GS
That's what I thought.
Let me leave you with some final words to chew on. Your only experience with the polygraph is the one time you failed it. You're incapable of articulating your thoughts (if you even have any), you're incapable of critical thinking and you're a failure. It's no wonder the government rejected you.
Toodles,
GS
Posted by stefano
- Jun 27, 2012, 08:46 PMI'm sorry Gore, but it's like trying to explain general relativity to an amoeba. I'm done, good luck to you.
Posted by Gore Sassoon
- Jun 27, 2012, 06:15 PMStefano,
Pull your pseudo-intellectual head out of your bum and enlighten me. Why is it that you can never write anything substantial? You seem to have a knack for writing sentences that are broad and contribute nothing.
Now, if you'll be so kind as to tell me why the APA and Ames were incorrect, using that big noggin of yours that you pretend is so full yet has failed to produce ANY data, sites with data or even anecdotes.
Of course, you can always just stop writing back. It would certainly be your best argument so far because then I'd at least know that you have some level of reading comprehension.
Pull your pseudo-intellectual head out of your bum and enlighten me. Why is it that you can never write anything substantial? You seem to have a knack for writing sentences that are broad and contribute nothing.
Now, if you'll be so kind as to tell me why the APA and Ames were incorrect, using that big noggin of yours that you pretend is so full yet has failed to produce ANY data, sites with data or even anecdotes.
Of course, you can always just stop writing back. It would certainly be your best argument so far because then I'd at least know that you have some level of reading comprehension.
Posted by stefano
- Jun 27, 2012, 05:16 PMGore, you need to read up on how the sympathetic and parasympathetic components of the autonomous central nervous system interact. Until you get at least a layman's understanding, it would be futile to further discuss this subject with you.
*Quickfix, that's a much better side of you. That Eddy Haskell stuff is misleading. thanks.
*Quickfix, that's a much better side of you. That Eddy Haskell stuff is misleading. thanks.
Posted by Gore Sassoon
- Jun 27, 2012, 03:53 PMSorry for the duplicate.
Posted by Gore Sassoon
- Jun 27, 2012, 03:51 PMSo it's the word "composure" that's throwing you guys off. I'll let the team at the Arkansas Polygraph Association summarise a particular case for us:
"In the case, US v. Scheffer, it was ruled by the Supreme Court that polygraph evidence dint [sic] not have to be admitted in military court as evidence as the military were trained enough in keep[ing] their composure and could cheat polygraphs with their calm demeanor."
The link is: arkansaspolygraphassociation(dot)com/officers
As a funny side note, the accused was trying to use the polygraph results in his favour.
Aimes, a successful polygraph foiler, posited: "...go into the test rested and relaxed.... try to maintain your calm."
While "composure" is a state of mind representing calm. The result of a calm body can be measured. Pulse, blood pressure and breathing all occur within a normal range. When your body is stressed, your pulse increases, blood pressure increases and breathing rate increases. And if your body is stressed, your mind is stressed.
Now, each person's baseline is slightly different. If you are composed, meaning you are RELAXED and CALM, your body will not indicate an increase in the aforementioned items.
All of this information can be found in the book on this site.
Stefano/quickfix,
Arkansas Polygraph Association's page:
"Polygraph machines are made using a combination of medical devices that monitor any change occurring in the body."
California Forensics:
"The polygraph instrument is basically a combination of medical devices that are used to monitor changes occurring within the examinee's body."
Bill Brown,
Let me ask you two questions because you're obviously the person with the most experience here:
1) When a person's mental state changes from calm to stressed, are there physiological indications of such changes?
2) If physiological changes occur, is the polygraph able to record those changes?
"In the case, US v. Scheffer, it was ruled by the Supreme Court that polygraph evidence dint [sic] not have to be admitted in military court as evidence as the military were trained enough in keep[ing] their composure and could cheat polygraphs with their calm demeanor."
The link is: arkansaspolygraphassociation(dot)com/officers
As a funny side note, the accused was trying to use the polygraph results in his favour.
Aimes, a successful polygraph foiler, posited: "...go into the test rested and relaxed.... try to maintain your calm."
While "composure" is a state of mind representing calm. The result of a calm body can be measured. Pulse, blood pressure and breathing all occur within a normal range. When your body is stressed, your pulse increases, blood pressure increases and breathing rate increases. And if your body is stressed, your mind is stressed.
Now, each person's baseline is slightly different. If you are composed, meaning you are RELAXED and CALM, your body will not indicate an increase in the aforementioned items.
All of this information can be found in the book on this site.
Stefano/quickfix,
Arkansas Polygraph Association's page:
"Polygraph machines are made using a combination of medical devices that monitor any change occurring in the body."
California Forensics:
"The polygraph instrument is basically a combination of medical devices that are used to monitor changes occurring within the examinee's body."
Bill Brown,
Let me ask you two questions because you're obviously the person with the most experience here:
1) When a person's mental state changes from calm to stressed, are there physiological indications of such changes?
2) If physiological changes occur, is the polygraph able to record those changes?
Posted by Gore Sassoon
- Jun 27, 2012, 03:51 PMSo it's the word "composure" that's throwing you guys off. I'll let the team at the Arkansas Polygraph Association summarise a particular case for us:
"In the case, US v. Scheffer, it was ruled by the Supreme Court that polygraph evidence dint [sic] not have to be admitted in military court as evidence as the military were trained enough in keep[ing] their composure and could cheat polygraphs with their calm demeanor."
The link is: arkansaspolygraphassociation(dot)com/officers
As a funny side note, the accused was trying to use the polygraph results in his favour.
Aimes, a successful polygraph foiler, posited: "...go into the test rested and relaxed.... try to maintain your calm."
While "composure" is a state of mind representing calm. The result of a calm body can be measured. Pulse, blood pressure and breathing all occur within a normal range. When your body is stressed, your pulse increases, blood pressure increases and breathing rate increases. And if your body is stressed, your mind is stressed.
Now, each person's baseline is slightly different. If you are composed, meaning you are RELAXED and CALM, your body will not indicate an increase in the aforementioned items.
All of this information can be found in the book on this site.
Stefano/quickfix,
Arkansas Polygraph Association's page:
"Polygraph machines are made using a combination of medical devices that monitor any change occurring in the body."
California Forensics:
"The polygraph instrument is basically a combination of medical devices that are used to monitor changes occurring within the examinee's body."
Bill Brown,
Let me ask you two questions because you're obviously the person with the most experience here:
1) When a person's mental state changes from calm to stressed, are there physiological indications of such changes?
2) If physiological changes occur, is the polygraph able to record those changes?
"In the case, US v. Scheffer, it was ruled by the Supreme Court that polygraph evidence dint [sic] not have to be admitted in military court as evidence as the military were trained enough in keep[ing] their composure and could cheat polygraphs with their calm demeanor."
The link is: arkansaspolygraphassociation(dot)com/officers
As a funny side note, the accused was trying to use the polygraph results in his favour.
Aimes, a successful polygraph foiler, posited: "...go into the test rested and relaxed.... try to maintain your calm."
While "composure" is a state of mind representing calm. The result of a calm body can be measured. Pulse, blood pressure and breathing all occur within a normal range. When your body is stressed, your pulse increases, blood pressure increases and breathing rate increases. And if your body is stressed, your mind is stressed.
Now, each person's baseline is slightly different. If you are composed, meaning you are RELAXED and CALM, your body will not indicate an increase in the aforementioned items.
All of this information can be found in the book on this site.
Stefano/quickfix,
Arkansas Polygraph Association's page:
"Polygraph machines are made using a combination of medical devices that monitor any change occurring in the body."
California Forensics:
"The polygraph instrument is basically a combination of medical devices that are used to monitor changes occurring within the examinee's body."
Bill Brown,
Let me ask you two questions because you're obviously the person with the most experience here:
1) When a person's mental state changes from calm to stressed, are there physiological indications of such changes?
2) If physiological changes occur, is the polygraph able to record those changes?
Posted by quickfix
- Jun 27, 2012, 03:19 PMSorry, I have to side with Stefano on this (I can't believe I'm saying that!); obviously a polygraph instrument cannot measure composure; it's not a quanitfiable condition, although some aspects of it are (i.e. blood pressure); polygraph components are not identical to medical devices used in hospitals; first of all, a cardio cuff on a polygraph instrument does not record blood pressure; it monitors and records relative blood volume; that's not the same thing; you can calculate pulse rate, but you can't determine someone's blood pressure "reading", i.e.130 over 70, etc. Furthermore, I have never seen polygraph pneumo tubes used in any hospital, clinic, or emergency room I have ever been in.
As a former clearance adjudicator, I can also say with authority that "composure" is not an emotional state that may be used to deny or revoke someone's clearance. Behavior as a result of loss of composure certainly is; I'm sure you are familiar with the term "going postal"; coming back with an uzi and whacking your co-workers is loss of composure but is behavioral; raising one's voice in anger may also be construed as loss of composure, but no one has ever lost their clearance for that.
Stefano's point is on target here; unless you have data to support your statement, it is opinion only.
As a former clearance adjudicator, I can also say with authority that "composure" is not an emotional state that may be used to deny or revoke someone's clearance. Behavior as a result of loss of composure certainly is; I'm sure you are familiar with the term "going postal"; coming back with an uzi and whacking your co-workers is loss of composure but is behavioral; raising one's voice in anger may also be construed as loss of composure, but no one has ever lost their clearance for that.
Stefano's point is on target here; unless you have data to support your statement, it is opinion only.