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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by Mr. Truth
- Apr 19, 2011, 12:56 PMFor anyone thinks that "simply" telling the truth and everything will be okay as far as polygraphs are concerned, you are ignorant. But don't worry, this situation is correctable via education.
All you need for proof is an inconclusive (or DI) result when you damn well know you told the truth. How can you be NDI on "have you had sex with anyone other than your wife in the last X days" and then be scored DI on "have you had sex with anyone under the age of 18 in the last X days?" Only if your wife is under the age of 18, but mine was like what, 38? Go figure.
You have to be able to tell the difference between control questions and relevant questions.
You need to "up" your response to control questions. How you do that is technique. The easiest is to induce an adrenalin rush - a mental countermeasure, if you will - rather than a physical one. It's easy, totally at your control. That feeling you get when you feel like you are falling or tripping, sometimes while you are on the verge of falling asleep? Same thing. Think, "I'm on fire" and your baseline response will be much higher. Relax otherwise and tell the truth on the relevant questions. It works.
I didn't lie about what I did. I took about 30 polygraphs over 7 years. It should have been one for history/disclosure and 13 or so for the every 6 months maintenance BS. Getting "consequenced" or "incentivized" to tell the truth (when I already was) and having to pay for the extra exams, extra failed polygraph modules, and the community service hours - you think people are not going to be wondering WTF and go look for answers or reasons why this "test" is so fucked up?
I stood up and took my licks for what I did. I did not sign up to be flailed for lying, especially as I was not lying.
All you need for proof is an inconclusive (or DI) result when you damn well know you told the truth. How can you be NDI on "have you had sex with anyone other than your wife in the last X days" and then be scored DI on "have you had sex with anyone under the age of 18 in the last X days?" Only if your wife is under the age of 18, but mine was like what, 38? Go figure.
You have to be able to tell the difference between control questions and relevant questions.
You need to "up" your response to control questions. How you do that is technique. The easiest is to induce an adrenalin rush - a mental countermeasure, if you will - rather than a physical one. It's easy, totally at your control. That feeling you get when you feel like you are falling or tripping, sometimes while you are on the verge of falling asleep? Same thing. Think, "I'm on fire" and your baseline response will be much higher. Relax otherwise and tell the truth on the relevant questions. It works.
I didn't lie about what I did. I took about 30 polygraphs over 7 years. It should have been one for history/disclosure and 13 or so for the every 6 months maintenance BS. Getting "consequenced" or "incentivized" to tell the truth (when I already was) and having to pay for the extra exams, extra failed polygraph modules, and the community service hours - you think people are not going to be wondering WTF and go look for answers or reasons why this "test" is so fucked up?
I stood up and took my licks for what I did. I did not sign up to be flailed for lying, especially as I was not lying.
Posted by antipolygraphrso
- Apr 16, 2011, 06:57 PMQuote from: mypolygraphexperie on Dec 08, 2010, 06:25 AM
They teach in SOTP that sex offenders usually offend during times of high stress, and I wondered how many sex offenders give up helplessly after failing these tests and go "WTF, they think I am reoffending anyway, I may as well!" Its easier to loose hope and rebel against the SOTP system, a system which did benefit me to some degree, because they put so much into the tests.
They do. Either that or they kill themselves (which maybe is part of the 'program' anyway). In my 'tenure' we had 2 guys blow their brains out and another one die from a heart attack.
Posted by Chuckles
- Mar 16, 2011, 10:50 PMMan, I can so identify with the people in this thread. I too am a sex offender who was sorry for my crime and tried to follow all the rules. I thought that being honest was the best defense for a polygraph test, boy was I wrong. After failing two polygraph test and getting into trouble with my therapy group and probation officer I was getting desperate. I've been good - it makes no sense that to send someone like me to prison.
So I learned the countermeasures described in "The lie behind the lie detector," and I passed my polygraph with flying colors. He told my therapist that I took great ownership of my problems and was working to get better.
I too was worried that augmenting my response to the control questions would be discovered and get me into even more trouble. That probably added to the stress every time I tried to augment my response, thereby making the squiggly lines on the readout squiggle even more. The stress/worry is a good thing.
Anyone who thinks that the truth is enough to pass a polygraph is ignorant. I have never lied during a polygraph test, but it was only after I started doing countermeasures and breathing control that I passed one.
So I learned the countermeasures described in "The lie behind the lie detector," and I passed my polygraph with flying colors. He told my therapist that I took great ownership of my problems and was working to get better.
I too was worried that augmenting my response to the control questions would be discovered and get me into even more trouble. That probably added to the stress every time I tried to augment my response, thereby making the squiggly lines on the readout squiggle even more. The stress/worry is a good thing.
Anyone who thinks that the truth is enough to pass a polygraph is ignorant. I have never lied during a polygraph test, but it was only after I started doing countermeasures and breathing control that I passed one.
Posted by hackerx
- Dec 31, 2010, 02:52 PMWell, what can I say? I am in a SOTP treatment program also. What gets me is I took a polygraph test; was completely honest during the test, and I failed it. I then, trying to prove myself innocent, spent another $300; went to another polygrapher on my own; explained the situation, took a test again, and failed it again. I had though I would be able to bring the test back to my probation officer and prove my innocence, but no. Instead, when I met with my probation officer the next time, she brings up "I hear you went to take another polygraph test" -- Apparently, the polygrapher that I paid as a regular private citizen called my probation officer and notified them. So I got sent to prison. And now I am on parole. I have only 9 months left. But I have to take a polygraph sometime. I don't know when yet. But I am scared because just hooking me up to the machine makes me feel guilty. I have nothing to hide, but I don't know why I can't pass. And I am afraid that if I try countermeasures to save myself that I will be found out and make the situation even worse. All I need is a polygrapher telling my paraole officer "yeah, he used countermeasures; he must be hiding something" then getting revoked, sent back to prison losing all my street time; and for what? The machine does not work. It does not work. It does not work. Angry. Frustrated. Scared.
Posted by pailryder
- Dec 08, 2010, 08:31 AMmypolygraphexperience
There is nothing in your post that I would challenge. Save one minor point, your account seems right to me. SOTP is a relatively new and, I have been told, lucrative area for polygraphers. I have trained in the techniques but choose not to conduct them. Nine polygraphs is, in my humble estimation, about 7 or 8 too many, anyone could learn effective cm's with that many chances to practice. Did you pay for all nine tests yourself?
I'm not sure that false positives are the excuse or reason why offenders decide to reoffend, but perhaps you are correct and it is a factor.
Other than that, your advice to not give up, do your best in group, and be honest with yourself is well stated and should be heeded by anyone who finds themselves in a similiar situation.
Good luck on your recovery.
There is nothing in your post that I would challenge. Save one minor point, your account seems right to me. SOTP is a relatively new and, I have been told, lucrative area for polygraphers. I have trained in the techniques but choose not to conduct them. Nine polygraphs is, in my humble estimation, about 7 or 8 too many, anyone could learn effective cm's with that many chances to practice. Did you pay for all nine tests yourself?
I'm not sure that false positives are the excuse or reason why offenders decide to reoffend, but perhaps you are correct and it is a factor.
Other than that, your advice to not give up, do your best in group, and be honest with yourself is well stated and should be heeded by anyone who finds themselves in a similiar situation.
Good luck on your recovery.
Posted by mypolygraphexperience
- Dec 08, 2010, 06:25 AMI had to take 9 polygraphs throughout my participation in a Texas based SOTP program. I was always honest and upfront about my charges to the court and to my SOTP and went into the polygraphs with the idea that I am being honest I will pass. Guess what, I did pass my polygraphs by simply telling the truth, well at least the first two (including instant offense and sexual history).
After that I failed the third fourth and fifth, two of them being re-offense tests and one being specific issue. I was very frustrated and upset because my probation stipulations changed due to the polygraph results. I was treated different in my SOTP constantly being challenged and dealt with as a liar, it really hurt since I had pride in myself that I had always told the truth and was dealing with my charge responsibly. I felt helpless so I started researching. Of course at least half of my SOTP group had a stipulation in their probation saying they can not use a computer and internet, and I was one of the ones with that stipulation. (Knowledge is power right? Why not ban one of the best resources even through my offense had nothing to do with computers or internet). I had given up, my faith in the polygraph was gone and I felt I was going to fail regardless, so I broke that rule intentionally and found this website. It was the first time I intentionally broke any of my probation rules, and and it was because of the polygraph giving me false positives that I intentionally violated a rule. Now isn't that ironic?
After reading "The Lie Behind Polygraphs"everything made sense. I could see why I failed the tests I did based on the questions I was asked and my responses to the Relevant Control Question. The RCQ didn't phase me at all in the tests when I started failing them like they did in the first couple of test that I passed, so my natural nervousness and response to the relevant questions were higher. I knew of all the punishment I would get if I failed another test, and I knew what they were testing for. Perhaps examiners will counter with the excuse that the examiner wasn't good, but I failed the tests with two different examiners, all licensed by the APA and approved by SOTP. It turned worse each test "Oh crap here comes the big questions, I've been honest, but I've failed this before, its gonna happen again this sucks don't panic' I'd tell myself. These thoughts didn't happen on the Relevant Control Question and I didn't get nervous on those, thus my baseline was too low. Of course, I didn't know how all that worked until I read up on it. I thought, as many other people think, if you are honest you will pass. And I thought the 'baseline' were the non relevant control questions.
The Polygraph Institute had not started using countermeasure devices (at least not with the examiners I had to use) until my 4th test. I noticed specialized chairs and extra devices under the seat during my 4th test, but at that point didn't think much of them because I was still trying to pass honestly and didn't know countermeasures. I went into the 5th test with knowledge gained here. I recognized one of the relevant control question, provided the butt pucker technique. I was afraid of the new sensors would pick up movement of the butt pucker, there wasn't much information about them here at the time, but that ironically made me even more nervous on the relevant control question and likely helped skew the baseline even higher! The examiner said I was a screamer and easy to test. I learned that taking the test has a lot to do with playing the examiner as well, give them enough information to believe your results. I learned to pick a relevant control question that I could come up with the best excuse for, one that was least damaging. A common one that would occur was 'have you ever lied to someone you love'. There were a few tests that were more difficult because the relevent control questions turned into tougher excuses like 'have you ever lied to your probation officer' and others that someone could provide an incriminating excuse to. One of the tests was almost a no win, and when I provided a response to the least incrimidting relevant control question I didn't have a good reason and was grilled and grilled about the question, then I was told I passed easily after he couldn't get anything out of me. I learned that some examiners were like this, it was more about interragation even if you passed they wanted to try to find something to get on you. The reports to the SOTP would always say something like 'Subject may need further questioning when it comes to issues relating to 'whatever the relevant control question was' but the test was always non-deceptive after I learned counter measures.
So there I was, a young naive and honest person, learning that lying was the best was for me to beat a polygraph, and the better I lied and came up with excuses that fit in line with the testing model, the easier it was to pass. What a great lesson in life, and what irony.
I left the tests so angry, knowing how many honest people are being falsely accused with this test. I had a friend denied a police officer job because he failed a test. My sister had failed one while working at a drug store and was accused of theft. It is just wrong.
They teach in SOTP that sex offenders usually offend during times of high stress, and I wondered how many sex offenders give up helplessly after failing these tests and go "WTF, they think I am reoffending anyway, I may as well!" Its easier to loose hope and rebel against the SOTP system, a system which did benefit me to some degree, because they put so much into the tests.
An offender that knows he will have to lie on the polygraph will be the first to go look for information on how to beat it! They will do it from the stat of SOTP, and because they pass and pass the sexual history test, they get little challenge in SOTP, and they do not benefit from it at all. Its very frustrating to know this happens. Information spread in my SOTP among the patients and I found I was not the only one that knew about countermeasures. I knew of four other patients that started passing all their polygraphs once knowing countermeasures. One of them I would rather have not learned them as I knew he didn't care about SOTP and things went very easy for him when he started passing the tests even though I knew he was violating probation (not with a sex offense). There was also another SOTP patient that tried to use the countermeasures but he was not the brightest and always misapplied it. I truly believe he was a false positive, and things became worse for him after failing even more tests and stupidly applying countermeasures to a relevant question, so maybe for some their odds are just better to go in blind if they can't understand how to properly use countermeasures, I dunno. I do know the polygraph is a very bad 'tool' to be used in SOTP.
I'm sure examiners here will come up with excuses or challenges to this post, I'll do my best to answer them. I am sure they have an answer of some sort for this question, but if the polygraphs work why do they even bother trying to detect countermeasures at all? Isn't that in itself an admission that they are not accurate?
To those of you who seem to be against the polygraph, except when it comes to sex offenders (who gives a crap if they are false positive right, they deserve it...), I hope this post shows you how it can actually be used to make it easier for a sex offender to re offend if they wanted to.
My advice for current SOTP patients. It is possible to make it through despite how bad things may get. There is a life after probation, parole, whatever you may be on. Don't give up, do your best in group and be honest with yourself. Do what you have to do to make it through otherwise.
After that I failed the third fourth and fifth, two of them being re-offense tests and one being specific issue. I was very frustrated and upset because my probation stipulations changed due to the polygraph results. I was treated different in my SOTP constantly being challenged and dealt with as a liar, it really hurt since I had pride in myself that I had always told the truth and was dealing with my charge responsibly. I felt helpless so I started researching. Of course at least half of my SOTP group had a stipulation in their probation saying they can not use a computer and internet, and I was one of the ones with that stipulation. (Knowledge is power right? Why not ban one of the best resources even through my offense had nothing to do with computers or internet). I had given up, my faith in the polygraph was gone and I felt I was going to fail regardless, so I broke that rule intentionally and found this website. It was the first time I intentionally broke any of my probation rules, and and it was because of the polygraph giving me false positives that I intentionally violated a rule. Now isn't that ironic?
After reading "The Lie Behind Polygraphs"everything made sense. I could see why I failed the tests I did based on the questions I was asked and my responses to the Relevant Control Question. The RCQ didn't phase me at all in the tests when I started failing them like they did in the first couple of test that I passed, so my natural nervousness and response to the relevant questions were higher. I knew of all the punishment I would get if I failed another test, and I knew what they were testing for. Perhaps examiners will counter with the excuse that the examiner wasn't good, but I failed the tests with two different examiners, all licensed by the APA and approved by SOTP. It turned worse each test "Oh crap here comes the big questions, I've been honest, but I've failed this before, its gonna happen again this sucks don't panic' I'd tell myself. These thoughts didn't happen on the Relevant Control Question and I didn't get nervous on those, thus my baseline was too low. Of course, I didn't know how all that worked until I read up on it. I thought, as many other people think, if you are honest you will pass. And I thought the 'baseline' were the non relevant control questions.
The Polygraph Institute had not started using countermeasure devices (at least not with the examiners I had to use) until my 4th test. I noticed specialized chairs and extra devices under the seat during my 4th test, but at that point didn't think much of them because I was still trying to pass honestly and didn't know countermeasures. I went into the 5th test with knowledge gained here. I recognized one of the relevant control question, provided the butt pucker technique. I was afraid of the new sensors would pick up movement of the butt pucker, there wasn't much information about them here at the time, but that ironically made me even more nervous on the relevant control question and likely helped skew the baseline even higher! The examiner said I was a screamer and easy to test. I learned that taking the test has a lot to do with playing the examiner as well, give them enough information to believe your results. I learned to pick a relevant control question that I could come up with the best excuse for, one that was least damaging. A common one that would occur was 'have you ever lied to someone you love'. There were a few tests that were more difficult because the relevent control questions turned into tougher excuses like 'have you ever lied to your probation officer' and others that someone could provide an incriminating excuse to. One of the tests was almost a no win, and when I provided a response to the least incrimidting relevant control question I didn't have a good reason and was grilled and grilled about the question, then I was told I passed easily after he couldn't get anything out of me. I learned that some examiners were like this, it was more about interragation even if you passed they wanted to try to find something to get on you. The reports to the SOTP would always say something like 'Subject may need further questioning when it comes to issues relating to 'whatever the relevant control question was' but the test was always non-deceptive after I learned counter measures.
So there I was, a young naive and honest person, learning that lying was the best was for me to beat a polygraph, and the better I lied and came up with excuses that fit in line with the testing model, the easier it was to pass. What a great lesson in life, and what irony.
I left the tests so angry, knowing how many honest people are being falsely accused with this test. I had a friend denied a police officer job because he failed a test. My sister had failed one while working at a drug store and was accused of theft. It is just wrong.
They teach in SOTP that sex offenders usually offend during times of high stress, and I wondered how many sex offenders give up helplessly after failing these tests and go "WTF, they think I am reoffending anyway, I may as well!" Its easier to loose hope and rebel against the SOTP system, a system which did benefit me to some degree, because they put so much into the tests.
An offender that knows he will have to lie on the polygraph will be the first to go look for information on how to beat it! They will do it from the stat of SOTP, and because they pass and pass the sexual history test, they get little challenge in SOTP, and they do not benefit from it at all. Its very frustrating to know this happens. Information spread in my SOTP among the patients and I found I was not the only one that knew about countermeasures. I knew of four other patients that started passing all their polygraphs once knowing countermeasures. One of them I would rather have not learned them as I knew he didn't care about SOTP and things went very easy for him when he started passing the tests even though I knew he was violating probation (not with a sex offense). There was also another SOTP patient that tried to use the countermeasures but he was not the brightest and always misapplied it. I truly believe he was a false positive, and things became worse for him after failing even more tests and stupidly applying countermeasures to a relevant question, so maybe for some their odds are just better to go in blind if they can't understand how to properly use countermeasures, I dunno. I do know the polygraph is a very bad 'tool' to be used in SOTP.
I'm sure examiners here will come up with excuses or challenges to this post, I'll do my best to answer them. I am sure they have an answer of some sort for this question, but if the polygraphs work why do they even bother trying to detect countermeasures at all? Isn't that in itself an admission that they are not accurate?
To those of you who seem to be against the polygraph, except when it comes to sex offenders (who gives a crap if they are false positive right, they deserve it...), I hope this post shows you how it can actually be used to make it easier for a sex offender to re offend if they wanted to.
My advice for current SOTP patients. It is possible to make it through despite how bad things may get. There is a life after probation, parole, whatever you may be on. Don't give up, do your best in group and be honest with yourself. Do what you have to do to make it through otherwise.