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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by Lethe
- Sep 04, 2007, 03:56 PMIncidentally, the APA's website details their grievance review process here. It certainly sounds fair (but, then again, the Soviet Union's constitution sounded like it guaranteed a lot of liberties). The disciplinary actions mentioned include may censuring the offender, suspending his membership, or terminating his membership in the Association. Again, sounds reasonable and pretty standard. But... I wonder if they've ever done that? It should be a simple enough matter to find out.
Posted by Lethe
- Sep 04, 2007, 03:52 PMHey, welcome back, nonombre.
You have indicated the following:
If you didn't agree with statement (2), would you have talked up the APA by pointing out that it "HAS a detailed code of ethics and there is an ethics committe that actively investigates complaints of unethical behavior"? What is the point of investigating complaints if nothing ever follows from such an investigation? A code of ethics will do little to prevent unethical behavior unless said code carries some teeth.
So, is the APA ethics investigation committee doing a good job? Well... maybe. But if you don't know what they've done, you have no reason to think they're doing a good job. Thus, nonombre, your (apparent) belief that they're doing a good job has, by your own admission, no rational basis. Wow. Who'd have thought?
And, yeah, I'll contact the APA. We'll see what they have to say about this.
You have indicated the following:
(1) You don't know anything about any punishments that the APA may have handed out for unethical behavior; but
(2) You think they are doing a good job.
If you didn't agree with statement (2), would you have talked up the APA by pointing out that it "HAS a detailed code of ethics and there is an ethics committe that actively investigates complaints of unethical behavior"? What is the point of investigating complaints if nothing ever follows from such an investigation? A code of ethics will do little to prevent unethical behavior unless said code carries some teeth.
So, is the APA ethics investigation committee doing a good job? Well... maybe. But if you don't know what they've done, you have no reason to think they're doing a good job. Thus, nonombre, your (apparent) belief that they're doing a good job has, by your own admission, no rational basis. Wow. Who'd have thought?
And, yeah, I'll contact the APA. We'll see what they have to say about this.
Posted by 1904
- Sep 04, 2007, 06:50 AMQuote from: nonombre on Sep 03, 2007, 04:34 PMQuote from: Lethe on Sep 03, 2007, 12:21 PMQuote from: nonombre on Aug 30, 2007, 08:00 PM
the APA at least HAS a detailed code of ethics and there is an ethics committe that actively investigates complaints of unethical behavior.
C'mon, nonombre. Why don't you tell us what sorts of punishments this ethics committee has handed out to errant polygraphists?
Good question. Since I do not know any unethical examiners personally, I do not know what the APA might have done to these sorts of folks in the past...
Why don't you write and ask the APA? I would be interested in knowing the answer myself...
P.S. Here is a little "food for thought" for you. I bet if you were to research the last 100 years or so of actions by the ethics committees of the AMA, the "Big" APA (American Psychological Association), or any state bar association, I bet you would find THOUSANDS of cases where complaints were brought and the association chose (for a myriad of reasons) to take no action...
Gee, maybe we should just shut down all those damned associations... :-/
Regards,
Nonombre 8-)
Weird reply. The rationale is; 'everyone does it so it's okay.'
Posted by 2525
- Sep 03, 2007, 08:47 PMNonombre:
You are quite correct. Professional associations most frequently rule for their members when ethics violations arise. Why would that not be the case? Would a panel of physicians make a decision that could increase malpractice insurance rates? Do not party members vote for their own party? I do not understand your point.
Now, when the actions of independent organizations such as state licensing agencies and departments of professional regulation are considered, what is the real pattern? What is the consensus when allegations of wrongdoing are investigated by organizations that do not have a large financial interest?
Please be reasonable when you attempt to make a point Sir.
Sadly, in the present state of our world, polygraph testing is unlikely to end until it is replaced by a substantially more accurate technique. Might I suggest you learn to operate a Ouija Board Sir?
Hope you had a great holiday weekend Sir.
You are quite correct. Professional associations most frequently rule for their members when ethics violations arise. Why would that not be the case? Would a panel of physicians make a decision that could increase malpractice insurance rates? Do not party members vote for their own party? I do not understand your point.
Now, when the actions of independent organizations such as state licensing agencies and departments of professional regulation are considered, what is the real pattern? What is the consensus when allegations of wrongdoing are investigated by organizations that do not have a large financial interest?
Please be reasonable when you attempt to make a point Sir.
Sadly, in the present state of our world, polygraph testing is unlikely to end until it is replaced by a substantially more accurate technique. Might I suggest you learn to operate a Ouija Board Sir?
Hope you had a great holiday weekend Sir.
Posted by nonombre
- Sep 03, 2007, 04:34 PMQuote from: Lethe on Sep 03, 2007, 12:21 PMQuote from: nonombre on Aug 30, 2007, 08:00 PM
the APA at least HAS a detailed code of ethics and there is an ethics committe that actively investigates complaints of unethical behavior.
C'mon, nonombre. Why don't you tell us what sorts of punishments this ethics committee has handed out to errant polygraphists?
Good question. Since I do not know any unethical examiners personally, I do not know what the APA might have done to these sorts of folks in the past...
Why don't you write and ask the APA? I would be interested in knowing the answer myself...
P.S. Here is a little "food for thought" for you. I bet if you were to research the last 100 years or so of actions by the ethics committees of the AMA, the "Big" APA (American Psychological Association), or any state bar association, I bet you would find THOUSANDS of cases where complaints were brought and the association chose (for a myriad of reasons) to take no action...
Gee, maybe we should just shut down all those damned associations... :-/
Regards,
Nonombre 8-)
Posted by Lethe
- Sep 03, 2007, 12:21 PMQuote from: nonombre on Aug 30, 2007, 08:00 PM
the APA at least HAS a detailed code of ethics and there is an ethics committe that actively investigates complaints of unethical behavior.
C'mon, nonombre. Why don't you tell us what sorts of punishments this ethics committee has handed out to errant polygraphists? Telling us how the APA deals with unruly members won't destroy your life's work, like telling us the control questions obviously would. Telling us about a bad polygrapher who got what he deserved at the hands of his more upright colleagues can only make a fair-minded person raise his or her opinion of the APA, and I don't think it would lower the opinion of a not fair-minded person.
Hmm. Actually, nonombre never said anyone is ever punished by the APA, just that the organization "investigates" complaints. Can you at least tell us whether they actually punish people who have violated ethics rules?
So, are you just taking time to research your answer so you can respond comprehensively? Or are you going into another period of hiding now that you've been called out on another question that you embarassingly can't answer?
Posted by Drew Richardson
- Sep 01, 2007, 08:13 AMGeorge writes:
and EosJupiter writes:
Correct and clever, gentlemen. But I really think you should thank, Nonombre. Raising the APA and ethics committees, standards, etc. in answer to the new member's question was really a slow pitch down the middle for you guys. I think this was really his way of letting you hit a couple out of the park at the Labor Day picnic. And who says he's not a nice guy....
Quote
I have seen no evidence that would lead me to believe that the American Polygraph Association (APA) actually enforces ethical standards any more stringently than does Polygraph Examiners of America (PEOA). For example, the APA has no problem with members falsely passing themselves off as Ph.D.s in marketing their services, and it continues to "accredit" a polygraph school that it knows to have fraudulently shortchanged students on training hours.
I note that PEOA lists among its recent "Members of the Month" a couple relatively well-known names in the polygraph community, such as Kendall Shull (retired FBI polygraph program manager) and James Reistroffer (past president of the Iowa Polygraph Association and recent past chair of the APA's grievance committee). It seems the latter himself became the subject of an ethics inquiry.
and EosJupiter writes:
Quote
Nonombre,
This is not personally directed at you. But the APA pointing the unethical finger at PEOA, is like a call girl having an argument with a street hooker. One "HO" is better than the other, using ethics which are not enforced or followed. This reminds me of a religious argument too, that my god is better than your god, because we dance better. The lunacy and entertainment value is huge !!! And your correct from the perspective that I have no respect or give any credibility too either APA or PEOA. Delinquent organizations supporting and defending a public con that is the polygraph, at $300 a pop. Sounds like a hooker price to me.
Regards ....
Correct and clever, gentlemen. But I really think you should thank, Nonombre. Raising the APA and ethics committees, standards, etc. in answer to the new member's question was really a slow pitch down the middle for you guys. I think this was really his way of letting you hit a couple out of the park at the Labor Day picnic. And who says he's not a nice guy....
Posted by Sergeant1107
- Aug 31, 2007, 10:18 PMQuote from: Lethe on Aug 31, 2007, 07:33 PMHi, nonombre. Can you give us examples of punishments meted out by the APA for ethics violations in the past 5 years? Has anyone been kicked out, had his license suspended, been censured, reprimanded, anything like that?I'm sure there hasn't been any unethical behavior among the polygraph examiners in the APA for the past five years.
Posted by Lethe
- Aug 31, 2007, 07:33 PMQuote from: nonombre on Aug 30, 2007, 08:00 PM
the APA at least HAS a detailed code of ethics and there is an ethics committe that actively investigates complaints of unethical behavior. The outcome of its investigations does not always meet the expectations of the proprietors of this website (no surprise on an "anti-polygraph" website), but such is the course of all things.
Hi, nonombre. Can you give us examples of punishments meted out by the APA for ethics violations in the past 5 years? Has anyone been kicked out, had his license suspended, been censured, reprimanded, anything like that?
Posted by EosJupiter
- Aug 31, 2007, 01:24 PMQuoteAs an additional note, even though there is alot of American Polygraph Association (APA) bashing on this website, the APA at least HAS a detailed code of ethics and there is an ethics committe that actively investigates complaints of unethical behavior. The outcome of its investigations does not always meet the expectations of the proprietors of this website (no surprise on an "anti-polygraph" website), but such is the course of all things. Therefore, my advice to you is to insist that any polygraph examiner engaged in business that affects your life be an APA member, be licensed in the state he/she practices, and hold any and all certifications required by the type of testing involved in your particular case.
Good luck to you.
Nonombre
Nonombre,
This is not personally directed at you. But the APA pointing the unethical finger at PEOA, is like a call girl having an argument with a street hooker. One "HO" is better than the other, using ethics which are not enforced or followed. This reminds me of a religious argument too, that my god is better than your god, because we dance better. The lunacy and entertainment value is huge !!! And your correct from the perspective that I have no respect or give any credibility too either APA or PEOA. Delinquent organizations supporting and defending a public con that is the polygraph, at $300 a pop. Sounds like a hooker price to me.
Regards ....
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Aug 31, 2007, 07:38 AMI have seen no evidence that would lead me to believe that the American Polygraph Association (APA) actually enforces ethical standards any more stringently than does Polygraph Examiners of America (PEOA). For example, the APA has no problem with members falsely passing themselves off as Ph.D.s in marketing their services, and it continues to "accredit" a polygraph school that it knows to have fraudulently shortchanged students on training hours.
I note that PEOA lists among its recent "Members of the Month" a couple relatively well-known names in the polygraph community, such as Kendall Shull (retired FBI polygraph program manager) and James Reistroffer (past president of the Iowa Polygraph Association and recent past chair of the APA's grievance committee). It seems the latter himself became the subject of an ethics inquiry.
I note that PEOA lists among its recent "Members of the Month" a couple relatively well-known names in the polygraph community, such as Kendall Shull (retired FBI polygraph program manager) and James Reistroffer (past president of the Iowa Polygraph Association and recent past chair of the APA's grievance committee). It seems the latter himself became the subject of an ethics inquiry.
Posted by nonombre
- Aug 30, 2007, 08:00 PMQuote from: catwoman7 on Aug 30, 2007, 06:54 PMThank you for your comments. One of its members has a contract with the county to perform polygraphs and appears to be practicing unethical behavior. Code of ethics is not available on their site nor is much of anything else nor are they willing to send me a copy of anything. Perhaps there is some deception going on!
catwoman7
I am happy to have been of assistance.
As an additional note, even though there is alot of American Polygraph Association (APA) bashing on this website, the APA at least HAS a detailed code of ethics and there is an ethics committe that actively investigates complaints of unethical behavior. The outcome of its investigations does not always meet the expectations of the proprietors of this website (no surprise on an "anti-polygraph" website), but such is the course of all things. Therefore, my advice to you is to insist that any polygraph examiner engaged in business that affects your life be an APA member, be licensed in the state he/she practices, and hold any and all certifications required by the type of testing involved in your particular case.
Good luck to you.
Nonombre
Posted by catwoman7
- Aug 30, 2007, 06:54 PMThank you for your comments. One of its members has a contract with the county to perform polygraphs and appears to be practicing unethical behavior. Code of ethics is not available on their site nor is much of anything else nor are they willing to send me a copy of anything. Perhaps there is some deception going on!
catwoman7
catwoman7
Posted by nonombre
- Aug 30, 2007, 06:40 PMQuote from: catwoman7 on Aug 30, 2007, 01:51 PMJust wondering if anyone has had any experience with PEOA (Polygraph Examiners of America) or any of its members. I would appreciate any info you can provide. Thanks!
catwoman7
Yes,
I understand the PEOA is pretty much a scam, run by a guy who does not possess the professional or academic credentials to get into the American Polygraph Association.
I further understand the state polygraph association where the owner of the PEOA website resides pretty much ran him out of town on a rail.
I don't know any of this first hand however. This is all second and third hand information. However, if the information I was given is correct (I have it from good sources), then I would avoid professional contact with this outfit at all costs.
I hope it helps...
Nonombre 8-)
Posted by catwoman7
- Aug 30, 2007, 01:51 PMJust wondering if anyone has had any experience with PEOA (Polygraph Examiners of America) or any of its members. I would appreciate any info you can provide. Thanks!
catwoman7
catwoman7