Hot Topic (More than 15 Replies) Update to poly "Time for the witch hunt to begin" (Read 13936 times)
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Update to poly "Time for the witch hunt to begin"
Apr 11th, 2001 at 9:59am
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This is just an update to the poly test I said I was going to take for a large metropolitan PD in California. My polygrapher was a woman and not a man and the polygraph test itself was surprisingly very stress free with little harsh interrogating. She did ask me to clarify several times and then emphasized the honesty part of the test. Well the session itself lasted around 3 hours including the pre-interview. First she strapped me down and did the "calibration" then she asked questions and did 3 chart profiles of my reactions. Then she went in the hallway to ask her supervisor (if there is such a thing)what they thought of the test. She came back and mentioned that I should breath normally and asked if I knew what countermeasures were. I of course said no, and she explained what it was. So she comes back with an abridged listing of questions with 2 relevants and a mix of controls consisting of A) Have I taken anything from an employer over 300 and B) What illegal drugs have I experimented with in my drug history. She then told me I had a problem when answering both of these.

I of course stuck to my guns and did not make any admissions. I've never tried drugs or stolen anything to begin with so the point was moot. We went through the process again with the questions being asked 3 times. After it she took another stroll out to the hallway and came back telling me the test was inconclusive about a "portion". When I asked she told me the illegal drug question was the problem and she will schedule me for another retest. (possibly not with the same polygrapher) 

MY question is...what am I supposed to think about this or what can I do to prepare? I hear it's a normal interrogation tactic to reschedule a person after a polygraph for another focusing on a specific subject. I'm unsure however about whether this is a ploy to get me to make admissions and they plan on failing me anyways or if they are just being "thorough" 

Advice needed.

Btw here are a list of the questions asked.

1)Is your name ________
2) Do you reside in the U.S.?
3) Have you betrayed a person that trusted you?
4) Have you stolen anything from your employer worth over 300.
5) Have you placed any false information on any official document before applying to us?
6) Have you committed any serious undetected crime?
7) Have you ever been biased against someone and did something to them because of it?
8) Have you ever physically abused anyone in a domestic relationship?

I might be missing a couple but those were the main ones.

I'm assuming 1,2 were irrelevant.
However I was uncertain about the relevancy of 5,6.
I used countermeasures on 1,2,3,7.

  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: Update to poly "Time for the witch hunt to beg
Reply #1 - Apr 11th, 2001 at 10:57am
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polyfraud,

I suspect that you are not being set up for failure, because if that were the case, it seems unlikely you would have been scheduled for a second session.

Regarding the questions you were asked:

Questions 1 & 2 are irrelevant questions; no physiological response is expected, and you should not have artificially produced a response when answering these questions.

I, too, am uncertain regarding the relevancy of questions 5 & 6.

Questions 3 & 7 are clearly probable lie "control" questions, and you correctly identified them as such and augmented your physiological responses when answering them.

Questions 4 & 8 are clearly relevant questions. Were you also asked a relevant question about drug use in this question series? [Note: in your post, the 8 followed by a right parenthesis got converted into a "smiley." To prevent this from happening, check the "Disable Smilies" box when you post. Because you're a registered user, you can go back and edit your message if you like.]

You may gain some additional insight regarding the rationale of the questions you were asked by keeping in mind the general rule that in probable-lie "control" question "tests," question series typically begin with two irrelevant questions followed by a "sacrifice" relevant (frequently worded along the lines, "Do you intend to answer all questions truthfully on this test?). In addition, each relevant question asked in the series will have an adjacent "control" question.

Apart from chart manipulations, remember also the behavioral countermeasures discussed in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector. Your polygrapher's subjective opinion regarding your honesty may also influence the outcome of the "test."
  

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Re: Update to poly "Time for the witch hunt to beg
Reply #2 - Apr 12th, 2001 at 2:31am
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polyfraud wrote on Apr 11th, 2001 at 9:59am:

. When I asked she told me the illegal drug question was the problem and she will schedule me for another retest. (possibly not with the same polygrapher) 





Polyfraud,

Good Job! I am curious to know how many "examiners" they are going to use to try and find "something" concrete to back up the "tomfoolery" er polygraph. 

One question I have is that when the examiner mentioned countermeasures did she say you were breathing abnormally or just to breathe normally. It sounds like an attempt to jack you up and you "countered" that well.

Stay Focused and Hopefully the next one is the last one.    Angry

Fred F.
  
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Re: Update to poly
Reply #3 - Apr 12th, 2001 at 10:19am
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Polyfraud,

Good Job! I am curious to know how many "examiners" they are going to use to try and find "something" concrete to back up the "tomfoolery" er polygraph. 

One question I have is that when the examiner mentioned countermeasures did she say you were breathing abnormally or just to breathe normally. It sounds like an attempt to jack you up and you "countered" that well.

Stay Focused and Hopefully the next one is the last one.    Angry

Fred F.


Heh, it's kind of funny you ask. She asked me once if I did any kind of deep breathing exercises or yoga or some nonsense. I of course said no, i'm a slow breather naturally then she told me to breath faster than what I was doing. This is how ridiculous I think the polygraph is, if they are relying on using your breath as a measurement of truthfulness wouldn't telling me to "breath faster"
be contradictive and screw up the supposed "test"?
It was until after the first set of charts that she came back with the "countermeasures" comment. After I feigned stupidity she then made me do another set and came back with the "drug problem". I think they default on that "drug problem" answer whenever the charts don't fit their criteria and they have to retest someone. The funny thing is when I asked her what the problem was..she paused before saying it was "drugs" like she had to think of a reason.
This just cements the truth that the polygraph is nothing but bullsh*t.


  
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On Breathing Rates
Reply #4 - Apr 12th, 2001 at 10:49am
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polyfraud,

As we mention in Chapter 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector, polygraphers expect people to breathe at a faster rate than you might imagine. The DoDPI "Test Data Analysis" document recently released under the Freedom of Information Act and posted to the AntiPolygraph.org Reading Room states at page 12: "The normal cyclic rate is 13 to 18 breaths per minute. This may vary due to a person's physical condition and/or physical build."

When examinees breathe more slowly than the expected "normal" rate, it is not uncommon for polygraphers to suspect a "countermeasures" attempt.
  

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Re: Update to poly "Time for the witch hunt to beg
Reply #5 - Apr 12th, 2001 at 8:23pm
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I know why your test was inconclusive! "first she strapped me down".  It is extremely difficult to test a "strapped down" person.  Would you please tell me what she stapped you to, exactly where were these straps placed, were you lying down, standing, sitting? As a polygraphist I am always interested in the methods used by others.  Strapping down, according to many anti-polygraph people, seems to be a new phenomenon that is finding it's way into the procedure.  I have searched high and low to find a polygraphist who uses this method and my search has been un successful.  Could it be that this, like so much of the anti-polygraph rhetoric is being said to put fear into those who are to be tested.  I cannot blame anyone for being anti-polygraph if that was the method used, on the other hand, if this was not the case why do certain people insist on perpetuating this lie?  nuff said!   Ray L.   Grin
  
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Re: Update to poly "Time for the witch hunt to beg
Reply #6 - Apr 12th, 2001 at 9:15pm
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I know why your test was inconclusive! "first she strapped me down".  It is extremely difficult to test a "strapped down" person.  Would you please tell me what she stapped you to, exactly where were these straps placed, were you lying down, standing, sitting? As a polygraphist I am always interested in the methods used by others.  Strapping down, according to many anti-polygraph people, seems to be a new phenomenon that is finding it's way into the procedure.  I have searched high and low to find a polygraphist who uses this method and my search has been un successful.  Could it be that this, like so much of the anti-polygraph rhetoric is being said to put fear into those who are to be tested.  I cannot blame anyone for being anti-polygraph if that was the method used, on the other hand, if this was not the case why do certain people insist on perpetuating this lie?  nuff said!   Ray L.   Grin



Um, you're nitpicking my choice of words describing the process after you've read about the crap I had to endure? I wasn't actually ANTI poly anything I had a iota of doubt that maybe the polygraph worked after all and the anti poly sites just had a bone to pick. However, after taking the polygraph myself for a LE pre-employment position I realize how fraudulent the whole thing is. I'm not a stupid person, i'm not some uneducated joe six pack off the street. I am a college educated individual from a tier one university in california I can tell pseudoscience from real science. Hell, acupuncture is around 100% more credible than this poly garbage at least APPROVED medical research has proven that the former works in some cases to ease pain. Polygraph has been disclaimed by people with Ph.D and is invalid in court.. that to me is a sure indicator that something is terribly amiss. I'm not going to let this thing slide however, if I do end up bombing the poly because of the infamous "False positive" I guarantee I will write a letter about my whole ordeal in the student newspaper and possibly write a letter to other media outlets. To be honest, while it would be great to work in LE and it is a dream I can do a great deal of other things in other occupations with my college degree. If the government is so keen on failing good honest people over a stupid pseudoscientific test then maybe they don't WANT or deserve to have young educated recruits. 
  
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Re: Update to poly "Time for the witch hunt to beg
Reply #7 - Apr 12th, 2001 at 11:38pm
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    In response to Mr. Latimer's reply about being upset by polygraph victims using the term "strapped-in", I think we all know that we are actually not strapped to the chair. I'm sure that they are refering to the pnuemo tubes and arm cuff being strapped on thier body. Having been through 3 Federal L.E. polygraphs myself I must say that you certainly do feel "strapped" to the chair as you are immediately reminded should you even move the slightest bit during the examination. I vividly remember the pressure cuff being "strapped" on so tight on my arm that my whole hand went numb. I was just praying that I wouldn't flinch or move otherwise I would be reminded to stay still. I'm sure that polyphonies (examiners) would just love to be able to strap thier victims down given the opportunity to do so.
  
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Re: Update to poly "Time for the witch hunt to beg
Reply #8 - Apr 13th, 2001 at 3:16am
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Hi! Polyfraud, 
Polyfraud, I am not nitpicking.  I am sure that a "college educated" person should be able to discern the difference between being "strapped down" and having a monitoring device applied.  Why can't you say it like it is.  By the way most of the polygraphists that I know are "college educated",  some of them have graduate degrees and there are a few with Ph.ds, Law degrees and even A couple of Ministers.                              
Ray L. Wink
  
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Re: Update to poly
Reply #9 - Apr 13th, 2001 at 3:17am
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Quote:

 Could it be that this, like so much of the anti-polygraph rhetoric is being said to put fear into those who are to be tested.  I cannot blame anyone for being anti-polygraph if that was the method used, on the other hand, if this was not the case why do certain people insist on perpetuating this lie?  nuff said!   Ray L.   Grin


Ray,

Since you are a "purveyor of the art" you know that regardless of what the charts say(or don't say) you tighten the pneumo tubes and inform the candidate that this is to insure that the readings are correct.
 
This is akin to being "strapped down". I suppose when you attended your "Poly U" they showed you that tightening the pneumo tubes will constrict normal chest expansion and change the way the charts read(or don't read). 

The examiner instills the fear into those who are uneducated about your "art" when they give the usual pre-interview speech about the "accuracy and dependability of the "test". You must wonder why the Los Angeles County Sheriffs Department did 4800 polys last year, yet only 1600 people got hired. That equates to 3200 or so "inconclusive" or "deceptive" polys. Nuff said.
  
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Re: Update to poly "Time for the witch hunt to beg
Reply #10 - Apr 13th, 2001 at 10:22am
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Ray,
Is that all you can bring to the discussion? We're saying your chosen profession is a bunch of BS and all you can come back with is a childish arguement about being "strapped down"? I've seen this bitching before about being strapped down. Who cares what people call it? Why don't we start a thread about which pronunciation is correct tomato or tomAto?
  
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Re: Update to poly "Time for the witch hunt to beg
Reply #11 - Apr 14th, 2001 at 8:37pm
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XXX
I am sorry that you find my reply to be childish.  The purpose of my reply is not to be didactic or condescending, but rather to call attention to the gross exaggeration that is being perpetuated. one  loses a certain amount of creditability when one tends to exaggerate.  I am shocked that your reply is so acrimonious and shame on you for the language tsk! tsk!   Ray L.  Shocked
  
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We've convered this before
Reply #12 - Apr 15th, 2001 at 6:22am
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The point about being strapped down has been covered before here.

I think Ray Latimer's point on the strapping issue is that a "subject" is not attached to the chair like a driver by a seatbelt in a car. Even so, a seatbelt is actually very comfortable. On the other hand, a blood pressure cuff attached to the arm tightly is painful, as indicated by the poster who first used the term "strapped".

Now that we've gone to great lengths to establish that the subject is not actually bolted to the chair, I'd like to note that polygraphy still has not been proven to sort lie from truth. Oh but wait, would it work if the pneumatic tubes went all the way around the chair? Or if the chair had seatbelts?
  
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Re: Update to poly "Time for the witch hunt to beg
Reply #13 - Apr 15th, 2001 at 2:18pm
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False +, your conversational vehicle (no pun intended) of a car seat and accompanying seat belt is an excellent focus for the comparisons you draw.  But the comparisons go far beyond the fact that there frequently exists discomfort with the polygraph (cardio cuff) and that, as Mr. Latimer has pointed out and you have concurred with, that, as opposed to a car seat, one is not belted/bolted into a polygraph chair.  Mr. Latimer’s claim to simply correct exaggerations is QUITE DISINGENOUS though, if he does not fully illuminate the truth about the polygraph chair and the environment in which it is used.  Although as opposed to a car seat, a polygraph chair does not contain a chair restraint, the automobile passenger can remove his own restraint and disembark from the vehicle on his own accord.  With the exception of the electrodermal plates, a polygraph examinee cannot readily remove the polygraph attachments (cardio cuff/pneumo tubes) and his therefore is confined to the nearby surroundings of the polygraph chair within the time frame and pleasure of the polygraph examiner.  Furthermore, for all practical purposes the polygraph exam (in-test phase) does not end until the polygraph examiner declares it to have ended.  I suppose minor children directed by parents and kidnap victims held at gun point by kidnappers can be forced to remain in a car, but I hope Mr. Latimer understands that under normal circumstances there is no such compulsion or duress for competent and mature adults to remain in a car beyond their desire.  But the true benefit of your analogy, False +, comes after the completion of the in-test phase of polygraph, i.e., during the interrogation of an examinee found to be deceptive.  Polygraph examiners as they are taught, sometimes while the examinee is still in the chair with polygraph attachments in place, will invade the personal body space of the examinee, i.e., they will go “knee to knee” “in your face” with the examinee in an effort to effort to gain control of the ensuing conversation and elicit the desired confession, even with the knowledge that their deceptive polygraph tracing may simply be a false positive result (They are told you (they) have to “believe the charts.” (in fact, they are taught you (they) must be a true believer to be successful).  Perhaps the biggest benefit of this (our) present conversation is that this sort of thing can be exposed.  Every examinee when confronted with this last set of circumstances should (1) demand to freed from polygraph chair and polygraph attachments if a discussion about polygraph results and conclusions is to take place and (2) should very politely but very forcefully let the polygraph examiner know that the interview has reached its conclusion if the examiner is in any way shape or form accusing the examinee of deception based on the pseudo-diagnostic charade (polygraph exam) which would have just preceded their discussion/interrogation.
  
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Re: Update to poly
Reply #14 - Aug 8th, 2001 at 6:30am
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??? Tongue Roll Eyes Grin
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Update to poly "Time for the witch hunt to begin"

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