Torpedo wrote on Feb 16^th, 2003 at 2:44am:


Torpedo, I knew your attitude reminded me of someone famous in recent history, but I couldn't recall exactly who it was until I read this:

All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

The person who said that was your dear friend Hermann Goering, speaking at the Nuremberg Trials.

Keep your number one tube unflooded,

Dave

Twoblock wrote on Feb 21^st, 2003 at 7:11pm:


Here's one for you:

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind... And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded with patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader, and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."
-- William Shakespeare in The Tragedy of Julius Caesar

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind... And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded with patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader, and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."

-- Unknown Author

Thanks for noting the incorrect citation Marty!   

According to this article, looks like I'm not the only one cutting and pasting from the web.  

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,890916,00.html

Is this an urban myth too?

"Those who are willing to sacrifice their basic liberties to assure their security deserve neither." 
--Benjamin Franklin

Ok, so I admit that I may not be overly bright when it comes to politics and the chess game played by political leaders, but I am just wondering about something.  Sadaam is well aware of our massive build up in the region near him.  Why, why would he even contemplate the destruction of his weapons?  I mean, it would seem to me that if it was my house, and I was told I had to give up all of my weapons or face being forced out of my house, I don't know that I would be willing to dispose of all of my weapontry.  I would, especially if I was under the impression that all of those folks outside my door who were armed to the hilt were determined to evict me regardless of any concessions on my side.
Heck, since our intelligence agencies seem so apt to support the polygraph, why don't we just tell Sadaam to submit to a polygraph exam about his WMD?  If history repeats itself, he will be touted as a professional liar if he passes, and as a proven terrorist if he fails.  Either way, doesn't the US get what they want?   
Showing my naivity:
Seeker

Marty,

After 9-11, why was there not a thorough, vigorous, comprehensive investigation of what went wrong? 
Why didn’t they find those who failed America in the FBI and CIA, get rid of them, and replace them with those who sounded alarm bells but weren't heard?  Instead, they  set out to destroy the courageous whistle-blowers, and leave the incompetents right where they are, or even promote them.  Why wasn’t the polygraph put to use for this purpose, if the pentagon is so convinced that it works?

Why not make the capture of Osama bin Laden and his al-qaeda operatives the number one priority, rather than quietly give up on this search, and direct attentions elsewhere, like Saddam Hussein (read oil interests.)   

Even if things go perfectly, hundreds of Americans will die in America's invasion of Iraq. If things DON'T go well, tens of thousands of Americans will die because...why, exactly? The inspectors haven't found nuclear bombs over there. They haven't found a convincing al-qaeda connection. There's virtually NO EVIDENCE that we have to go to war at this time.

Seeker,

I agree, just polygraph Saddam, if they are worried about the weapons that were given to him by America.

Dear Lurking Woman,

[You write]
“The inspectors haven't found nuclear bombs over there.”

Just because the inspectors have not found any nuclear bombs in Iraq as of yet, does not mean that they are not there.

[Lurking woman also writes]
“Why didn’t they find those who failed America in the FBI and CIA, get rid of them, and replace them with those who sounded alarm bells but weren't heard?  Instead, they  set out to destroy the courageous whistle-blowers, and leave the incompetents right where they are, or even promote them.  Why wasn’t the polygraph put to use for this purpose, if the pentagon is so convinced that it works?”

You raise an excellent point here. You “hit the nail on the head” when you remarked, “why wasn’t the polygraph put to use for this purpose”, that is because the Pentagon knows that the polygraph is unreliable, and susceptible to countermeasures. It might “bluff” a confession from a naive and gullible suspect from time to time; however, the government knows that polygraph testing is not reliable at all. 

Consider this: if polygraph testing was remotely reliable, as is DNA testing, or finger print evidence directly linking a suspect to a specific crime, then polygraph results would be admissible in the court of law. Personally, I think that’s a hard argument to influence otherwise. 

What makes the United States so great and unique is not a pledge, a flag, or a song, all of which are more properly labeled culturally transitory trappings of patriotism. The USA is great because of a body of law and the people who have chosen to live under that law. That's why, in the United States when an immigrant takes the oath of citizenship, or when a citizen takes an oath of public office, they swear to uphold, not a flag, not the President, not a god, not an ideology, but the Constitution of the United States of America.

Likewise, terrorism as demonstrated by the suicidal murders of 9/11, and the present day fear of an ever-looming potential biological or nuclear attack somewhere within the USA should be stopped, fast and efficiently. However, there is no rapid response blueprint for accomplishing this goal. Things will be missed, suggestions overlooked, from various agents consisting of both the FBI and CIA. Hindsight is always 20/20, and laying blame comes easy from those on the outside looking in. As a free self-ruling democratic society, it is not only our right, but our responsibility to vigorously and openly debate the issues, the use of military force, our foreign policy, civil rights and privacy in a time of war, and so on. America Unites sounds great as a news logo; but unity is no simple concept. We all want our families, our soldiers, and our unions, to be united toward clear, common goals. But is it not dangerous for a democratic population weighing if and how to wage war to value unity above all else? It's all too easy to mandate patriotism, as the New York Board of Education brought back the pledge of allegiance to classrooms, as if that will stop the Osama bin Ladens of the world. 

Respectfully
Triple x