Normal Topic Nate's Re-Test!!! (Read 2728 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Nate (Guest)
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Nate's Re-Test!!!
Mar 2nd, 2001 at 11:15pm
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Well guys I took another police polygraph test today for one of the largest police departments in the State of Kansas.  It took like 3 hours but not because of the examiner’s fault but mine. We talked for 2 hours before the test.  The examiner was extremely nice and very honest.  He flat out told me how to beat the polygraph by using countermeasures  before we started.  He even explained the different techniques used in detail.  He did say that 9 times out of 10 he will catch someone that uses these because they are not trained well enough and make mistakes in which he sees.  I talked to him about my concerns and I told him everything, including that I was familiar with the control/relevant questions and how they are used.  He was very nice and answered all of my questions.  I told him that I would NOT being using countermeasures because I didn't want to work on a PD that I had to trick to get on.

The is examiner was actually a police officer for a different police department and he said he does this on the side because he hated that fact that some polygraph examiners are not honest and that sometimes "they" decide who to pass and who not to pass.  He made me feel at ease with his honesty. 

After much discussion he said that I would be fine and to take the polygraph.  When he asked me the control questions I refused to lie, and tried to tell the truth, he simply said "Nate, you know what I'm doing, just say no, trust me".  I trusted him and lied on the control questions and I passed with flying colors.  No deception on any questions!  I told him how this was the police department that I really wanted and that on my past "failed positive" I told them that I would rather work for another police department which was the truth.  He told me this could have been why I was failed.  He said this was not a good thing, but reality. 

He then showed me the charts that showed how the computer and him both agreed that I was telling the truth (or didn't show a reaction).  We got in depth about the sub-conscience and how it applies to polygraph testing and it really helped answer a lot of my questions. 

All in all he shook my hand and hoped to see me on the Police Department soon because I had now passed all of the pre-employment tests with extremely high scores in all categories.  Thanks for all the help and information.  I think I'm just going to dismiss my first "failed positive" as either following the "failed positive percentage" or that the examiner did in fact not want to pass me because that police department was not my first choice.  I'll let you guys know how the academy goes!!!



Nate
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George Maschke (Guest)
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Re: Nate's Re-Test!!!
Reply #1 - Mar 3rd, 2001 at 11:44am
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Nate,

Congratulations on making it past the polygraph hurdle! Thank you for sharing your experience; I have a few observations on it:
  • First, I am glad that your polygrapher was courteous with you. Politeness is one mark of a good interrogator. But he wasn't completely honest with you. He told you that 9 times out of 10 he will catch someone who uses countermeasures because they are not trained well enough and make mistakes which he sees. Tell me Nate, how can your polygraph examiner possibly know this? When an examinee successfully employs countermeasures, the polygraph examiner will never know it. His claim that he detects countermeasures attempts 9 out of 10 times was a dishonest attempt to frighten you out of employing polygraph countermeasures;
  • It seems from your account that your polygrapher used a directed-lie "control" question "test" with  you (or possibly a mixed probable-lie/directed-lie format). For more on directed-lie "control" questions, see Chapter 3 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector;
  • The term used to describe instances where a truthful person is erroneously found deceptive is "false positive" not "failed positive."
  • You noted that "We got in depth about the sub-conscience and how it applies to polygraph testing and it really helped answer a lot of my questions." You likely got the standard false and misleading spiel about the "fight or flight" response. (See pp. 42-43 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector; pp. 56-57 of the PDF file). The polygraph "test" lacks both standardization and control: it is not a valid psychometric test at all, and it has zero diagnosticity. As veteran polygrapher Len Harrelson said, "...without a confession, polygrams are still just polygrams." (Lietest: Deception, Truth, and Polygraph, 1998, p. 158 ).

Again, congratulations, and good luck at the academy!

Last modification: George Maschke - 03/03/01 at 03:44:15
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Nate (Guest)
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Re: Nate's Re-Test!!!
Reply #2 - Mar 5th, 2001 at 6:37pm
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"His claim that he detects countermeasures attempts 9 out of 10 times was a dishonest attempt to frighten you out of employing polygraph countermeasures;"

Nate: You’re right, I saw that too, I was just telling you what he said.  If someone did use countermeasures than he would never know so how could he say 9 out of 10?  I think he knew I studied the polygraph and had to compensate for the fact that I knew countermeasures and tried to "scare" me like you said.  It didn't bother me because I wasn't going to use them anyhow.  One thing I did like is that he did record the entire thing so there was no secrets.  Also, when he had me sign the releases and I asked, "do I have to sign these?" he replied "NO, you don't have to but you and I both know what the PD will do if you don't".  I signed the releases because he was probably right.


"You noted that "We got in depth about the sub-conscience and how it applies to polygraph testing and it really helped answer a lot of my questions." You likely got the standard false and misleading spiel about the "fight or flight" response."

Nate: He explained it like my body will react more to the control questions because I will in fact be lying and that "if" I was telling the truth on the relevant questions it would show nothing because there was no "threat" or "fight or flight".  I said, "well the control questions don't show a "threat" because you can't disqualify me if I fail those, but if this machine messes up on the relevant questions than I won't get a job on PD and that is the real threat".  He said to just take the test and when I passed he would explain it.  When I passed I asked him how, and he showed how my responses skyrocketed on the control questions and didn't do almost anything on the control questions.  He said even though I (logically) see the relevant questions as a threat and the control as not, my sub-conscience does not see this and will react accordingly.  He started talking about cognitive thinking as well.  I don't know if this is a bunch of BS or not but if it is true, that is the only way I could understand how it work......I did see that on my "control" questions my responses went off the chart and he said he had to adjust everything during the question to move it down so he could see it!  I thought it would be real easy to manipulate the polygraph by using this, thus making it easy for corrupted examiners to take advantage of this.

All in all I got a hint from him that he believed everything I said to him and that he was going to pass me.  I felt he had already made up his mind that he would pass me but I can’t say that for sure, just instincts.  In my opinion the polygraph can be used against people and probably does a lot.  But I also feel that there are “some” good examiners as this one.  On the other hand he could have just been like this with me because he liked me and different with other applicants, who knows. 


  
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