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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Can Military personel refuse a CI polygraph? (Read 2197 times)
Doug Williams
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Re: Can Military personel refuse a CI polygraph?
Reply #15 - Oct 16th, 2017 at 7:37pm
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quickfix wrote on Oct 16th, 2017 at 7:00pm:
[quote author=4F5D5151534E48594E3C0 link=1507827355/12#12 date=1508095105]They came one day and walked me out of the building - like a criminal. They took my badge and all my accesses. My former co-workers were told not to associate with me. I was libelously labeled a threat to security and a vulnerability.

Nothing libelous about it. You were a threat to national security, and you've been neutralized. The system works as it's supposed to.

No quickfix, the system does not work at least the system that relies on the fraud of the polygraph. That system is corrupt and broken and needs to be destroyed. And when you  talk  about a threat to national security you and your fellow charlatans are a grave threat to our national security because you have sold the government a bill of goods and you know you are lying and soon everyone else will know too!
  

It is time to put a stop to this government sponsored sadism perpetrated by those who use this insidious Orwellian instrument of torture called the 'lie detector'! Education is the most effective weapon I have to finally put a stop to the abusive practice of polygraph 'testing'. Help me by educating yourself and others. My book FROM COP TO CRUSADER: THE STORY OF MY FIGHT AGAINST THE DANGROUS MYTH OF "LIE DETECTION" is available on Amazon in e-book or paperback - please get this book and send it to as many people as you can - it literally destroys the myth of "lie detection"! Doug Williams
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George W. Maschke
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Re: Can Military personel refuse a CI polygraph?
Reply #16 - Oct 17th, 2017 at 6:05am
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quickfix wrote on Oct 14th, 2017 at 6:26pm:
The government doesn't give a shit what you think, felon.


Quickfix, perhaps you are correct that the government doesn't give a shit what Doug Williams thinks. But it cares very much about what he has written and said about polygraphy. It cares so much so that, in the absence of any evidence that he had committed any crime, it orchestrated Operation Lie Busters in order to formulate a crime for which to go after him. And it cares so much that it seeks to prevent him from providing individuals with training on how to pass a polygraph "test" during the next three years.

The U.S. government also cares so much about what Doug Williams has to say about polygraphy that a major part of the training the U.S. government provides to federal polygraph operators about countermeasures is devoted to his manual, "How to Sting the Polygraph."
  

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George W. Maschke
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Re: Can Military personel refuse a CI polygraph?
Reply #17 - Oct 17th, 2017 at 6:08am
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quickfix wrote on Oct 16th, 2017 at 7:00pm:
Nothing libelous about it.  You were a threat to national security, and you've been neutralized.  The system works as it's supposed to.


Quickfix, on the basis of what evidence do you assert that John M. was a threat to national security?
  

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Re: Can Military personel refuse a CI polygraph?
Reply #18 - Oct 17th, 2017 at 7:30pm
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George W. Maschke wrote on Oct 17th, 2017 at 6:05am:
Quickfix, perhaps you are correct that the government doesn't give a shit what Doug Williams thinks. But it cares very much about what he has written and said about polygraphy. It cares so much so that, in the absence of any evidence that he had committed any crime, it orchestrated Operation Lie Busters in order to formulate a crime for which to go after him. And it cares so much that it seeks to prevent him from providing individuals with training on how to pass a polygraph "test" during the next three years.


C'mon George- In the absence of evidence???  HE PLED GUILTY!!!  YOU WERE THERE! YOU SAW AND HEARD IT YOURSELF!!!  A guilty plea is the same as if he were tried and convicted.  No one else made the decision to plead guilty.  No one pleads guilty in the absence of evidence.

George W. Maschke wrote on Oct 17th, 2017 at 6:08am:
Quickfix, on the basis of what evidence do you assert that John M. was a threat to national security?


On the basis that he did not pass 5 CI polygraphs If 5 is indeed correct).  When you don't provide reasonable information concerning the cause of your responses, you leave the government no recourse but to assume the worst.  Involvement in espionage, terrorism, sabotage, unreported foreign contacts, or deliberately mishandling classified information.  Those are the issues.   The government will take the prudent course of action, which is to remove the person from access, and neutralize the threat.  And regardless of what John M. may think, the IC takes the same course of action;  military or civilian, no pass, no access.  As it should be.
  
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Re: Can Military personel refuse a CI polygraph?
Reply #19 - Oct 17th, 2017 at 8:00pm
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quickfix wrote on Oct 17th, 2017 at 7:30pm:
George W. Maschke wrote on Oct 17th, 2017 at 6:05am:
Quickfix, perhaps you are correct that the government doesn't give a shit what Doug Williams thinks. But it cares very much about what he has written and said about polygraphy. It cares so much so that, in the absence of any evidence that he had committed any crime, it orchestrated Operation Lie Busters in order to formulate a crime for which to go after him. And it cares so much that it seeks to prevent him from providing individuals with training on how to pass a polygraph "test" during the next three years.


C'mon George- In the absence of evidence??? HE PLED GUILTY!!! YOU WERE THERE! YOU SAW AND HEARD IT YOURSELF!!! A guilty plea is the same as if he were tried and convicted. No one else made the decision to plead guilty. No one pleads guilty in the absence of evidence.


Not that I give a big flying flatus what you think Quickfuk, but I will tell you that the "evidence" that the  Government presented in  my case was evidence of only one thing a set-up by a group of polygraph operators who were enraged at having been confronted with the truth about the evil polygraph industry. As to why I plead guilty I really had no option. My POS attorney told me at lunch on the first day of trial that he did not know how to offer a defense. In an adversarial proceeding if you cannot present a defense, you're screwed. So I told him to make the best deal he could and then I had to live with it. But as I have said before I was imprisoned for doing something that you and all your cohorts have always said was impossible for me to do teach someone to beat the polygraph. My conviction proves the polygraph is worthless as a "lie detector"!  And it was worth two years in prison to finally be able to prove that and to prove that the government knows that!
  

It is time to put a stop to this government sponsored sadism perpetrated by those who use this insidious Orwellian instrument of torture called the 'lie detector'! Education is the most effective weapon I have to finally put a stop to the abusive practice of polygraph 'testing'. Help me by educating yourself and others. My book FROM COP TO CRUSADER: THE STORY OF MY FIGHT AGAINST THE DANGROUS MYTH OF "LIE DETECTION" is available on Amazon in e-book or paperback - please get this book and send it to as many people as you can - it literally destroys the myth of "lie detection"! Doug Williams
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George W. Maschke
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Re: Can Military personel refuse a CI polygraph?
Reply #20 - Oct 17th, 2017 at 8:35pm
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quickfix wrote on Oct 17th, 2017 at 7:30pm:
C'mon George- In the absence of evidence???  HE PLED GUILTY!!!  YOU WERE THERE! YOU SAW AND HEARD IT YOURSELF!!!  A guilty plea is the same as if he were tried and convicted.  No one else made the decision to plead guilty.  No one pleads guilty in the absence of evidence.


Quickfix, perhaps I was insufficiently clear. My point was that the U.S. government orchestrated Operation Lie Busters in an effort to entrap Doug Williams in the absence of any prior evidence that he had committed any crime. And as Doug has pointed out, the only crimes to which he ultimately pled guilty are those that our government set up.

The fact that our government so feared what Doug Williams has to say about polygraphy that it set out to entrap him is ample evidence that it takes what he has to say on this topic very seriously indeed.

quickfix wrote on Oct 17th, 2017 at 7:30pm:
On the basis that he did not pass 5 CI polygraphs If 5 is indeed correct).  When you don't provide reasonable information concerning the cause of your responses, you leave the government no recourse but to assume the worst.  Involvement in espionage, terrorism, sabotage, unreported foreign contacts, or deliberately mishandling classified information.  Those are the issues.   The government will take the prudent course of action, which is to remove the person from access, and neutralize the threat.  And regardless of what John M. may think, the IC takes the same course of action;  military or civilian, no pass, no access.  As it should be.


Thank you also, quickfix, for explaining your rationale for calling John M. a threat to national security. I don't question your good faith on this, but I sincerely think that you attach to polygraph screening a validity that it does not possess.

Let us suppose for the sake of argument that, as he avers, John M. has not had any involvement in espionage, terrorism, sabotage, unreported foreign contacts, or the deliberate mishandling of classified information. He's an honest public servant who has answered all relevant questions truthfully. What sort of information concerning the causes of his responses might he be able to provide that you would find reasonable? Is there any?
  

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Re: Can Military personel refuse a CI polygraph?
Reply #21 - Oct 17th, 2017 at 8:49pm
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George W. Maschke wrote on Oct 17th, 2017 at 8:35pm:
Let us suppose for the sake of argument that, as he avers, John M. has not had any involvement in espionage, terrorism, sabotage, unreported foreign contacts, or the deliberate mishandling of classified information. He's an honest public servant who has answered all relevant questions truthfully. What sort of information concerning the causes of his responses might he be able to provide that you would find reasonable? Is there any?

That's the $64,000 question.  The only person who can answer that question is John M., not me, not you, not the Examiner.  John M.  He was given ample opportunity to provide a reason.  He chose not to.  And that's what did him in. 

As far as Doug goes, he let his own arrogance do him in.  Entrapment, no entrapment, doesn't matter.  He committed a felony, and suffered the consequences.
  
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Re: Can Military personel refuse a CI polygraph?
Reply #22 - Oct 17th, 2017 at 10:48pm
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Quickfix,

Regarding John M.'s situation, I can't agree with you. John M. actually did, to the best of his ability, attempt to explain why he might have reacted to a relevant question. As I recall, it had to do with sloppy handling of classified information that, with command knowledge and approval, was routine in his workplace.

Speaking hypothetically, could you provide any examples of the sorts of reasons that a truthful person who exhibits significant responses to relevant questions could provide to a polygraph examiner that would mitigate any security concerns?

Regarding Doug Williams' situation, I don't think he let "his own arrogance do him in," as you put it. In a recorded conversation with an undercover federal agent (J.D. Castillo) that was played in the courtroom, Doug repeatedly refused to help the undercover agent, but the agent would not take "no" for an answer and pandered to Doug's religious sympathies. See my reporting on the 2nd day of the trial here:

https://antipolygraph.org/blog/2015/05/14/u-s-v-doug-williams-day-2-doug-william...

Now, if you were to counter that nonetheless, Doug could have still chosen a different (and better) course of action, I would agree, and I think Doug, in retrospect, would too. But the fact remains that the only "crimes" to which Doug pled guilty are imaginary, victimless ones stage-managed by our government.

And again, this shows that our government cares very much about what Doug Williams is saying about polygraphy. Do you disagree?
  

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Re: Can Military personel refuse a CI polygraph?
Reply #23 - Oct 17th, 2017 at 11:19pm
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The attached "reasonable information" was provided in writing to my chain of command and the SSO shortly after my second interrogation. It was also included in my appeal - which was also ignored.

The truth is, and hard as it is to get this across, there are many reasons for someone to emit a physiological response. I've said this many, many times before - fear of failing produces a very strong uncontrollable reaction. On their polygraph machine, it must look very much like a lie.

For what it's worth, the only facet of my DOD OIG complaint that they actually investigated, was whether or not I had committed a security violation with any of the" reasonable information" which I provided (see the second attachment)
  

my_concerns_with_the_question.pdf ( 339 KB | 31 Downloads )

"The polygraph examination is a supplement to, not a substitute for, other methods of investigation. No, unfavorable administrative action shall be taken based solely on its results." ~ DODI 5210.91.
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Re: Can Military personel refuse a CI polygraph?
Reply #24 - Oct 18th, 2017 at 12:02am
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George W. Maschke wrote on Oct 17th, 2017 at 10:48pm:
Regarding Doug Williams' situation, I don't think he let "his own arrogance do him in," as you put it. In a recorded conversation with an undercover federal agent (J.D. Castillo) that was played in the courtroom, Doug repeatedly refused to help the undercover agent, but the agent would not take "no" for an answer and pandered to Doug's religious sympathies. See my reporting on the 2nd day of the trial here:

https://antipolygraph.org/blog/2015/05/14/u-s-v-doug-williams-day-2-doug-william...

Now, if you were to counter that nonetheless, Doug could have still chosen a different (and better) course of action, I would agree, and I think Doug, in retrospect, would too. But the fact remains that the only "crimes" to which Doug pled guilty are imaginary, victimless ones stage-managed by our government.

And again, this shows that our government cares very much about what Doug Williams is saying about polygraphy. Do you disagree?


Well said George. And you are quite correct in retrospect I should have refused to help the undercover agent. But you were there and you heard how pitiful he sounded and how much he begged me to help him. I'll give him this much that undercover agent should get an Academy award for his acting ability.  Undecided
  

It is time to put a stop to this government sponsored sadism perpetrated by those who use this insidious Orwellian instrument of torture called the 'lie detector'! Education is the most effective weapon I have to finally put a stop to the abusive practice of polygraph 'testing'. Help me by educating yourself and others. My book FROM COP TO CRUSADER: THE STORY OF MY FIGHT AGAINST THE DANGROUS MYTH OF "LIE DETECTION" is available on Amazon in e-book or paperback - please get this book and send it to as many people as you can - it literally destroys the myth of "lie detection"! Doug Williams
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Re: Can Military personel refuse a CI polygraph?
Reply #25 - Oct 18th, 2017 at 12:30am
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Here is the second attachment from my last post...
  

Hotline_Case_Summary_5_-_redacted.pdf ( 2774 KB | 29 Downloads )

"The polygraph examination is a supplement to, not a substitute for, other methods of investigation. No, unfavorable administrative action shall be taken based solely on its results." ~ DODI 5210.91.
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Re: Can Military personel refuse a CI polygraph?
Reply #26 - Oct 18th, 2017 at 6:30pm
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George W. Maschke wrote on Oct 17th, 2017 at 10:48pm:
Speaking hypothetically, could you provide any examples of the sorts of reasons that a truthful person who exhibits significant responses to relevant questions could provide to a polygraph examiner that would mitigate any security concerns?

I'll give you a couple of real-world examples, not hypotheticals:

1.  EXAMINEE has or had a romantic affair with a foreign national, When he hears the unauthorized foreign contact question, that's what he's thinking, will they find out/will my wife find out...  Instead of discussing the concern, EXAMINEE chooses to withhold the information, hence the polygraph failure.
2.  Quite common to deliberately mishandling classified information, personnel keep "souvenirs of their tour in Iraq or Afghanistan, i.e. photos, videos that are classified but have no markings, and even documents that had the classification markings cut off the top and bottom.  One Air Force Captain told me he had the video to one of his bombing runs over Iraq, kept as a souvenir.  Every time he heard the mishandle question, that what his concern was.  Again, he chose (initially) not to discuss it because he didn't want to have to turn it in.
George W. Maschke wrote on Oct 17th, 2017 at 10:48pm:
in retrospect, would too. But the fact remains that the only "crimes" to which Doug pled guilty are imaginary, victimless ones stage-managed by our government.


Really, imaginary crime? Were the prison bars and guards at Florence FCI imaginary too?
  
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George W. Maschke
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Re: Can Military personel refuse a CI polygraph?
Reply #27 - Oct 18th, 2017 at 7:32pm
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Quickfix,

Thank you for the examples you provided, but they aren't examples of truthful persons who exhibited significant responses to relevant questions. In both of your example, the examinee had actually answered a relevant question untruthfully (and only came clean during post-test interrogation). So again, hypothetically speaking, what sort of explanation could a genuinely truthful person whose polygraph charts nonetheless turn out "significant response" provide that would lay to rest any security concerns?

Regarding Doug Williams' situation, yes, of course his prison sentence was real. But again and despite having seized Doug's sales, e-mail, and phone records and having questioned many of his thousands of identified customers the only "crimes" with which Doug was charged, and to which he pled guilty, are those that our government conceived, planned, and play-acted. Perhaps none of that disturbs you, but it doesn't seem like justice to me.
  

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Re: Can Military personel refuse a CI polygraph?
Reply #28 - Oct 18th, 2017 at 9:01pm
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George W. Maschke wrote on Oct 18th, 2017 at 7:32pm:
Thank you for the examples you provided, but they aren't examples of truthful persons who exhibited significant responses to relevant questions.


Yes, they are examples, they are real-world examples of the types of information that a person provides after exhibiting significant responses.  Either you are misinformed about what goes on during a DOD polygraph exam, or you refuse to accept that a truthful person can provide this type of plausible information to explain responses.  There are other examples as well.  I won't debate you on this issue, since you are not an examiner and have no first-hand knowledge of what transpires during an actual DOD polygraph exam.
  
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Re: Can Military personel refuse a CI polygraph?
Reply #29 - Oct 18th, 2017 at 10:30pm
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quickfix wrote on Oct 18th, 2017 at 9:01pm:
I won't debate you on this issue

Because you can't handle the truth.  This whole messed up situation is soaked with irony.

This is the type of non-coherent blather that they are using to get away with abusing people with the polygraph.

Notice how he didn't touch my "concerns with the question" memo from yesterday.  After I would divulge this information to the polygraph operators, they would say "okay, now other than that, what else did you do?"  Like, I'm supposed to forget that they told me that I failed the question before, and somehow suppress the fear and anxiety of what will happen if I would react again.

I was scared shitless that I was going to lose my career if I reacted.  It was like they were holding a gun to my head.  This happened 5 times in 3 years.  I have estimated that over those 20+ hours of interrogation, I was probably asked that goddamn question over 2,000 times.  It keeps me awake at night - still.

I've often explained my uncontrollable reaction as like when you are driving at night and flashing lights appear in your rearview mirror. You haven't been drinking, you aren't speeding, and you know that you haven't done anything wrong.  You can't help but get the butterflies.  Hell, I was getting butterflies on the way to the appointments - just knowing that they were going to ask me that question - and have to sit through another interrogation.

George asks some very pointed questions that have gone unanswered for too long.  Now, dickfix doesn't want to debate the issue either - anybody care to guess why?

  

"The polygraph examination is a supplement to, not a substitute for, other methods of investigation. No, unfavorable administrative action shall be taken based solely on its results." ~ DODI 5210.91.
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