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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Can Military personel refuse a CI polygraph? (Read 5221 times)
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Can Military personel refuse a CI polygraph?
Oct 12th, 2017 at 4:55pm
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Hello, this person has never taken a polygraph before and is being assigned to a position that might require one. What can happen to military personnel who refuses to take a polygraph?
  
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Re: Can Military personel refuse a CI polygraph?
Reply #1 - Oct 12th, 2017 at 6:48pm
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They will not get the job that requires that poly.  Simple. 
I doubt they will lose their current job and/or clearance, but someone else can confirm.
  
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Re: Can Military personel refuse a CI polygraph?
Reply #2 - Oct 12th, 2017 at 7:11pm
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Not only will you not be assigned to the position, you can be denied access for anything else.  Having a clearance does not grant you the right to access, it only makes you eligible for access.  You will also become familiar with your service's counterintelligence office, and not in a good way.  Refusals are addressed in DOD Instruction 5210.91
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: Can Military personel refuse a CI polygraph?
Reply #3 - Oct 13th, 2017 at 5:57am
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I concur with quickfix. While in principle military personnel can refuse a CI polygraph, in practice it is career suicide.
  

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Re: Can Military personel refuse a CI polygraph?
Reply #4 - Oct 14th, 2017 at 2:27am
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I know a failed poly can end a career, but simply refusing one has the same effect?  Jeez! What about if working at a DOD contractor like Boeing, and your managers come and say "we want you on a special project, but you have to take a polygraph for your TS/SCI upgrade", and you refuse and tell them you know the polygraph is bullshit thanks to Antipolygraph.org?  Will they fire you?
  
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Re: Can Military personel refuse a CI polygraph?
Reply #5 - Oct 14th, 2017 at 3:55pm
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A refusal to a undergo polygraph testing required by a DOD contract makes you ineligible for the necessary access.  Contractors are routinely terminated from employment since they don't meet the polygraph requirement called for by the terms of the contract.
  
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Re: Can Military personel refuse a CI polygraph?
Reply #6 - Oct 14th, 2017 at 5:33pm
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quickfix wrote on Oct 14th, 2017 at 3:55pm:
A refusal to a undergo polygraph testing required by a DOD contract makes you ineligible for the necessary access.  Contractors are routinely terminated from employment since they don't meet the polygraph requirement called for by the terms of the contract.


It is unconscionable for the government to put that much power in the hands of thugs like you.  You and your fellow charlatans and quacks in the polygraph industry are unjustly enriching yourselves at the expense of hundreds of thousands of people. It is past time for our elected representatives to stop those of you who are perpetrating this fraud of "lie detection" - it has ruined the lives of far too many people.
  

It is time to put a stop to this government sponsored sadism perpetrated by those who use this insidious Orwellian instrument of torture called the 'lie detector'!  Education is the most effective weapon I have to finally put a stop to the abusive practice of polygraph 'testing'.  Help me by educating yourself and others.  My book FROM COP TO CRUSADER: THE STORY OF MY FIGHT AGAINST THE DANGROUS MYTH OF "LIE DETECTION" is available on Amazon in e-book or paperback - please get this book and send it to as many people as you can - it literally destroys the myth of "lie detection"!  Doug Williams
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Re: Can Military personel refuse a CI polygraph?
Reply #7 - Oct 14th, 2017 at 6:26pm
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Doug Williams wrote on Oct 14th, 2017 at 5:33pm:
It is unconscionable for the government to put that much power in the hands of thugs like you.  You and your fellow charlatans and quacks in the polygraph industry are unjustly enriching yourselves at the expense of hundreds of thousands of people. It is past time for our elected representatives to stop those of you who are perpetrating this fraud of "lie detection" - it has ruined the lives of far too many people.

The government doesn't give a shit what you think, felon.
  
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Re: Can Military personel refuse a CI polygraph?
Reply #8 - Oct 14th, 2017 at 6:50pm
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quickfix wrote on Oct 14th, 2017 at 6:26pm:
Doug Williams wrote on Oct 14th, 2017 at 5:33pm:
It is unconscionable for the government to put that much power in the hands of thugs like you.  You and your fellow charlatans and quacks in the polygraph industry are unjustly enriching yourselves at the expense of hundreds of thousands of people. It is past time for our elected representatives to stop those of you who are perpetrating this fraud of "lie detection" - it has ruined the lives of far too many people.

The government doesn't give a shit what you think, felon.


Ha ha Quickfix - another fine ad hominem attack. And you are right - I am indeed a felon. But not just a run-of-the-mill felon -
I am a PROUD, UNREPENTANT FELON!  Because the crime I was convicted of - teaching a person to "beat" the so called "lie detector" - proves the polygraph, when used as a "lie detector", is absolutely worthless! And my prosecution proves that you, and everyone in your evil industry know it!  It also proves you and your fellow polygraph thugs have been lying all along about two very important things: 1) That you can detect so called countermeasures, and 2) That I could not do what I was convicted of doing - and that is to teach a person to beat your worthless gadget.   

But I beg to differ with you – the government does care what I think.  I was given the VOLUNTEER ADVOCATE award by the ACLU for being the "one person most responsible for the passage of the EMPLOYEE POLYGRAPH PROTECTION ACT". And, God willing, I will also be the one who is most responsible for utterly destroying your evil industry and holding you and your fellow polygraph thugs up to the contempt and ridicule you, and they, so richly deserve. Your days are numbered charlatan! I may be a felon, but I am telling the truth about the fraud of "lie detection" and you are lying – and that's going to count for something sooner or later.
« Last Edit: Oct 14th, 2017 at 7:23pm by Doug Williams »  

It is time to put a stop to this government sponsored sadism perpetrated by those who use this insidious Orwellian instrument of torture called the 'lie detector'!  Education is the most effective weapon I have to finally put a stop to the abusive practice of polygraph 'testing'.  Help me by educating yourself and others.  My book FROM COP TO CRUSADER: THE STORY OF MY FIGHT AGAINST THE DANGROUS MYTH OF "LIE DETECTION" is available on Amazon in e-book or paperback - please get this book and send it to as many people as you can - it literally destroys the myth of "lie detection"!  Doug Williams
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Re: Can Military personel refuse a CI polygraph?
Reply #9 - Oct 14th, 2017 at 7:16pm
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quickfix wrote on Oct 14th, 2017 at 6:26pm:
The government doesn't give a shit what you think, felon.


I wish someone could explain to me how Xenonman was banned from this site yet Quickfix is allowed to remain despite his cyber bullying, profane language, and ad hominem attacks. I realize that Xenonman used harsh language wishing ill-things on certain CIA personnel but I believe such language from the victim of a crime is understandable.  To be insulted by someone like Quickfix after having one's life ruined by this polygraph witchcraft is hard to take.  With the exception of a few oddballs here and there I believe that most people who come to this site visit it to be consoled after being true victims of a true crime.  (I realize that I just set myself up to being called one of the oddballs by Quickfix in a follow-up retort.  Go ahead and call me names Quickfix.  Coming from you it means nothing.)

Dr. Maschke has denied that Quickfix is a plant to illustrate the true character of polygraph examiners but I can't think of one other reason he is allowed to post on this site.   He definitely serves the anti polygraph cause very well when his posts are read by objective thinking people of reasonable intelligence.  It's just painful to realize he's getting paid with our tax money and ostensibly enjoying the fruits of American citizenship while he should be getting the same justice meted out to the Nazi's at Nuremberg.   Remember that those guys were also acting in accordance with the laws of their day.  Angry
« Last Edit: Oct 14th, 2017 at 9:52pm by Wandersmann »  
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Re: Can Military personel refuse a CI polygraph?
Reply #10 - Oct 15th, 2017 at 3:58pm
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quickfix wrote on Oct 14th, 2017 at 6:26pm:
The government doesn't give a shit what you think, felon.


"The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted"  James Madison

Everything the Founding Fathers worried about has come to life with the polygraph.  Out of control government abusing the rights of the minority, in this case the minority of the polygraph victims.  Quickfix continues to extol the greatness of the government and it is painfully obvious he can not comprehend the gravity of the oath he took to the Constitution.  He lied when he took that oath, probably because he is too ignorant to understand it, but he lied.  Quickfix, our Founding Fathers recognized that government was necessary but also evil because they knew it would be run by people like you.  It's all about the Constitution, not the government.
  
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Re: Can Military personel refuse a CI polygraph?
Reply #11 - Oct 15th, 2017 at 4:37pm
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What I meant was, if you are currently working at a job like Boeing with a Secret or TS clearance, and you refuse the SCI -poly opportunity, will they fire you? Or why not just keep you employed on your Secret or TS non-poly job? All you are doing is refusing an advancement opportunity. Anyone personally experince something like this?
  
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Re: Can Military personel refuse a CI polygraph?
Reply #12 - Oct 15th, 2017 at 7:18pm
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damn, good question - one that deserves an answer.  Since the use of the polygraph within the government is unregulated, it will largely depend on the security office you are dealing with.

At DIA for instance, they are supposed to follow DOD policy. If your company's contract involves the Department of Defense, I suggest you see DODI 5210.91 (attached).  Under this policy, you would not be granted initial access, assignment, or detail if you refused the polygraph interrogation.

This policy also dictates however, that no unfavorable administrative action (to include access, employment, assignment, and detail determinations) shall be taken based solely on the polygraph "results".  So, one would assume that your current job would be safe.

Oh yeah, unfavorable administrative actions are also defined by CFR Title 32, Part 154.

At the DIA Office of Security, the Insider Threat Task Force operates in conjunction with the Credibility Assessments Program, and the job of hunting insiders is a lot easier using the polygraph.  I voluntarily sat through five interrogations in three years because I understood that if I refused, I would be punished.

I supposedly "failed" two of them - the three others were determined to be "no opinion".  They came one day and walked me out of the building -  like a criminal.  They took my badge and all my accesses.  My former co-workers were told not to associate with me.  I was libelously labeled a threat to security and a vulnerability.  I believe they knew that they couldn't fire me, so they banished me - sending me involuntarily to an unclassified job 1,000 miles away.

I had a TS/SCI for 34 years without a security related incident.  I completed six successful SSBI background checks.  This isn't supposed to happen in a free and honorable society.

I would be very concerned, as you are.  I hope you continue to ask questions, just be aware that you may draw attention from the counterintelligence nazis.  They'll have all your accesses pulled and you will be of no use to your company.

Oh yeah, about that reg.....
  

DODI_5210_91_001.pdf ( 256 KB | 55 Downloads )

"The polygraph examination is a supplement to, not a substitute for, other methods of investigation.  No, unfavorable administrative action shall be taken based solely on its results."  ~ DODI 5210.91.
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Re: Can Military personel refuse a CI polygraph?
Reply #13 - Oct 15th, 2017 at 8:53pm
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John M. wrote on Oct 15th, 2017 at 7:18pm:
I had a TS/SCI for 34 years without a security related incident.

 
Same thing with me.........TS/SCI for 33 years without as much as a verbal reprimand.  I just got my personnel records via FOIPA and it is over 200 pages of exceptional performance appraisals and letters of commendation with cash awards.  2 hours on the polygraph washed it all away. 

Sodom and Gomorrah was supposedly destroyed because Lot could not find 5 good men in the entire region.  We've got the same problem.  We need a couple of honorable attorneys and one honorable judge to put an end to this fraud and apparently there are none to be found.  If anyone ever gets anything going with the courts or Congress, let me know.  I guarantee that my story will win jurors.   


  
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Re: Can Military personel refuse a CI polygraph?
Reply #14 - Oct 16th, 2017 at 7:00pm
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John M. wrote on Oct 15th, 2017 at 7:18pm:
They came one day and walked me out of the building -  like a criminal.  They took my badge and all my accesses.  My former co-workers were told not to associate with me.  I was libelously labeled a threat to security and a vulnerability.

Nothing libelous about it.  You were a threat to national security, and you've been neutralized.  The system works as it's supposed to.Wandersmann wrote on Oct 15th, 2017 at 3:58pm:
Quickfix, our Founding Fathers recognized that government was necessary but also evil because they knew it would be run by people like you.  It's all about the Constitution, not the government.

And the Constitution was written by whom?  Oh, yeah, representatives, aka government.

  
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