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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) DIA's Insider Threat Program (Read 81446 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box John M.
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Re: DIA's Insider Threat Program
Reply #30 - Mar 1st, 2017 at 5:40pm
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Ex Member wrote on Mar 1st, 2017 at 2:41pm:
I suggest you do some research before embarrassing yourself with snarky comments.

Whoa, Arkhangelsk - spoken like a true God, before all worlds.

I have done enough research to realize that the lie detector is in fact a hoax, a crutch and an indolent method for conducting investigations.  Using the results as the sole basis for taking unfavorable action against an innocent person is a violation of their individual rights.

The entire field of forensic psychophysiology?  Come on man.  The polygraph and its ability to discern when someone is lying is all I’m commenting about here.  Your claim that it is “possible”, to detect memory using “peripheral indices” really doesn’t generate much confidence either.

I’m sorry you felt my comments were snarky, but you are the one who should feel embarrassed.  Thousands of people have been victimized by the “possibility” that they are liars.  This website is devoted to putting an end to this sort of witchcraft – “Exposing the Lie Behind the Polygraph” - and I support it 100%. 

I suspect that if you were ever screwed over, labeled a vulnerability and had your reputation ruined because of a false positive, you might feel differently.
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: DIA's Insider Threat Program
Reply #31 - Mar 1st, 2017 at 6:00pm
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John,

The procedure Archangelsk refers to (CIT - "Concealed Information Test," also known as a "Guilty Knowledge Test") is a rarely used polygraph technique that has a sounder basis than lie detection "tests." See this chapter on it from the first edition of the late David T. Lykken's seminal work on polygraphy, A Tremor in the Blood: Uses and Abuses of the Lie Detector:

https://antipolygraph.org/articles/article-037.pdf

I think it is exceedingly unlikely that the Guilty Knowledge Test would be used in any federal leak investigation.
  

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Re: DIA's Insider Threat Program
Reply #32 - Mar 1st, 2017 at 6:03pm
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During my ordeal (5 polys in 3 years), I was told not to do any research in to


...and I thought that the two polygraphs that I underwent in a three-year period were agonizing enough!  Of course, after my second one, in 1982, any remaining doubt on my part as to the utter worthlessness of the polygraph was completely resolved, after the NSA polygrapher accused me of deception by my concealing of homosexual relationships and meetings with foreign intelligence services!  Back then, as far as I know, there was little discussion about successful countermeasures to the polygraph.  It was largely believed that only psychotics, sociopaths, and small children were capable of "beating" the polygraph.  The CIA examiner I had did, however, ask me if I'd "studied" the polygraph at all.

I have no idea what, if any, regulations the CIA has regarding polygraphing or re-polygraphing its employees.  On all matters regarding personnel, the CIA is, of course, a law unto itself.  Even the number of polygraphers the CIA employs is kept classified.  As far as I know, re-polygraphing of its "on board" employees is required at least every five years.  I would obviously have no idea as to how extensively this is carried out in practice or if Agency employees have actually been terminated solely on the basis of a re-polygraph "interview".

Yes, you're correct about this "aura" of mystery and awe in which the polygraph continues  to be held.  The same "aura" equally surrounds the CIA.  Until this "aura" can be lifted, we'll see no reform of either institution.

Of course, Presidents quickly become addicted to their daily intelligence briefings (PDB's), and as a result seldom speak about reforming either evil. 

JFK supposedly spoke bitterly about the CIA, following the debacle at the Bay of Pigs, but look at what happened to him.   Grin  
Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes

  

What do we call it when every employee of the Agency's Office of Security
and Office of Personnel drowns in the Potomac?   A great beginning!

The best intelligence community employee is a compromised IC employee!
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Re: DIA's Insider Threat Program
Reply #33 - Mar 4th, 2017 at 2:39pm
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I suspect that if you were ever screwed over, labeled a vulnerability and had your reputation ruined because of a false positive, you might feel differently.

John, I am sympathetic to your angst. I am not a polygraph proponent, but I do not see much benefit in complete polarization either.

My observation regarding polygraph ethics has revealed two levels:

1. The "truth test" polygraph technique is not rooted in firm psychological foundations. Thus it is indeed a pseudoscience, and should not be used as a Human Resource tool because its accuracy is unknown and perhaps unknowable.

2. The mind is a private domain with its own providence and sanctity and should not be breached by anyone even if they were to have a highly accurate way to detect deception.

Those of the first mindset should not object if an authentic truth machine were to surface; those of the second would still scoff.

« Last Edit: Mar 4th, 2017 at 2:57pm by Ex Member »  
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Re: DIA's Insider Threat Program
Reply #34 - Mar 4th, 2017 at 4:37pm
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The level of vitriol in this forum worries me too.  The one positive factor evidenced by this all-too-apparent rising contentiousness is, to me at least, confirmation of the utter uselessness of the polygraph and of the fact that its proponents have been put very much on the defensive. Tongue
  

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Re: DIA's Insider Threat Program
Reply #35 - Mar 5th, 2017 at 7:55pm
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xenonman

I disagree.  This board was even more contentious when I began posting.  As for the usefulness of polygraph, I could not have made a living offering my services privately unless many people and businesses found it useful.  Ask yourself why you have never seen a complaint on this board about an EPPA test.  Are you even aware of EPPA? 
  

No good social purpose can be served by inventing ways of beating the lie detector or deceiving polygraphers.   David Thoreson Lykken
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Re: DIA's Insider Threat Program
Reply #36 - Mar 6th, 2017 at 2:20am
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Are you referring to the federal legislation which set very strict limits on the (mis)use of the polygraph by employers in the private sector?   Roll Eyes
  

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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box John M.
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Re: DIA's Insider Threat Program
Reply #37 - Mar 9th, 2017 at 7:39pm
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The EPPA, or the Polygraph Protection Act of 1988, or Public Law 100-347 supposedly provides protections for employees from polygraph abuse.

What is polygraph abuse?  Simply stated: Misusing the results.

To be clear, the law provides several exemptions, but also places explicit restrictions on those exemptions.

#1 on the list of restrictions is that the results of the polygraph shall not be used as the sole basis for taking unfavorable administrative action or adverse employment actions against an employee.

As I've said before, DODI 5210.91 provides this same protection for DOD employees.  I would assume the other agencies have their own instructions to prevent this type of abuse.

And for those who think the government gets to decide what is, and what an unfavorable administrative action isn't, see the Code of Federal Regulations - Title 32, Part 154.3.  Definitions:

(bb) Unfavorable administrative action. Adverse action taken as the result of personnel security determinations and unfavorable personnel security determinations as defined in this part.

(cc) Unfavorable personnel security determination. A denial or revocation of clearance for access to classified information; denial or revocation of access to classified information; denial or revocation of a Special Access authorization (including access to SCI); nonappointment to or nonselection for appointment to a sensitive position; nonappointment to or nonselection for any other position requiring a trustworthiness determination under this part; reassignment to a position of lesser sensitivity or to a nonsensitive position; and nonacceptance for or discharge from the Armed Forces when any of the foregoing actions are based on derogatory information of personnel security significance.

I have spent thousands of hours over the past 3 years trying to expose this abuse.

Imagine if everyone who was already an employee with a security clearance knew this?  No need to worry, go take their silly little test - they can't do anything to you, right?

Or, better yet, what if those charged with enforcing the regulations (DODI 5210.91) actually did their freaking jobs?

Yeah, I'm talking to you DOD and DIA IG.
  
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Re: DIA's Insider Threat Program
Reply #38 - Mar 9th, 2017 at 11:34pm
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supposedly provides protections for employees from polygraph abuse.



Yes, the word "supposedly" is the critical qualifier here!

Incidentally, you should also be talking to the IG's at the NSA, CIA, and NRO - all agencies which I doubt are covered by DOD regulations! Roll Eyes
  

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Re: DIA's Insider Threat Program
Reply #39 - Mar 10th, 2017 at 10:48pm
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John M

The Employee Polygraph Protection Act of 1988, a federal labor law enforced by Wage and Hour Division of DOL, applies only to employees of private businesses, employees of any branch of federal, state or local government are excluded.

Whatever your beef with governmental use of polygraph EPPA has nothing to do with it.
  

No good social purpose can be served by inventing ways of beating the lie detector or deceiving polygraphers.   David Thoreson Lykken
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Re: DIA's Insider Threat Program
Reply #40 - Mar 11th, 2017 at 5:28am
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pailryder wrote on Mar 10th, 2017 at 10:48pm:
John M

The Employee Polygraph Protection Act of 1988, a federal labor law enforced by Wage and Hour Division of DOL, applies only to employees of private businesses, employees of any branch of federal, state or local government are excluded.

Whatever your beef with governmental use of polygraph EPPA has nothing to do with it.


Correct.

We should be glad that (mis)use of the "magic box" has now been virtually outlawed in the private sector, except in certain very limited circumstances.

The real irony is that with Congress having thus regulated the vile "box", it is now the US Government which is the principal (ab)user of the polygraph! Roll Eyes
  

What do we call it when every employee of the Agency's Office of Security
and Office of Personnel drowns in the Potomac?   A great beginning!

The best intelligence community employee is a compromised IC employee!
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box John M.
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Re: DIA's Insider Threat Program
Reply #41 - Mar 11th, 2017 at 3:07pm
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pailryder wrote on Mar 10th, 2017 at 10:48pm:
Whatever your beef with governmental use of polygraph EPPA has nothing to do with it.


I have never, ever had a "beef" with the EEPA.  In fact I fully support it. Like I said, it provides exemptions for certain situations and permits the use of the polygraph, but it clearly has restrictions on those exemptions too.  The Law clearly prohibits those administering the lie detector from using the results alone as the sole basis for taking unfavorable actions against an otherwise innocent individual.

DODI 5210.91 covers the use of the polygraph for DOD employees (like me) and provides the same protections as the Public Law.  It states "The polygraph is a supplement to, not a substitute for other methods of investigation.  No unfavorable administrative actions shall be taken based solely on the results of the polygraph."

As Mr. Williams stated in his post to this thread 3 weeks ago, it’s time for the EPPA to be expanded to include government employees.

This is an individual rights issue.

  
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Re: DIA's Insider Threat Program
Reply #42 - Mar 12th, 2017 at 6:27pm
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As Mr. Williams stated in his post to this thread 3 weeks ago, it’s time for the EPPA to be expanded to include government employees.


That's an excellent idea, but it's about as likely to take place as it is to expect to find a living Ivory Billed Woodpecker!

Unfortunately, too many in Congress continue to believe the lunacy seeping from the polygraph industry and the IC as to the absolute necessity of needing to employ the polygraph to save our country from the danger of imminent invasion by Putin or Raul Castro.  Yes, think of all those brave CIA and other "three-letter" employees fighting and dying for us in the front lines in those wretched conditions found in US embassies far from home, all the time cowering behind the bona fide Foreign Service staff!

The mythology behind the polygraph will survive as long as the mystical aura surrounding the IC endures.

Incidentally, DOD regulations governing the polygraph, impressive as they are, will not change a single iota the personnel policies of, say, the CIA, NSA, or NRO, who continue to be laws unto themselves on matters of employee recruitment and selection! 

This certainly is an individual rights issue, I agree, but in the view of far too many, that concern is subordinate to that of preventing the Cuban Revolutionary Navy from shelling Palm Beach! Sad  Cheesy
  

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and Office of Personnel drowns in the Potomac?   A great beginning!

The best intelligence community employee is a compromised IC employee!
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Re: DIA's Insider Threat Program
Reply #43 - Mar 14th, 2017 at 1:22am
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As Mr. Williams stated in his post to this thread 3 weeks ago, it’s time for the EPPA to be expanded to include government employees.

This is an individual rights issue.


This is spot on.  It is an individual rights issue.  I'm sick of the old defense, "you don't have the right to a security clearance, the Government can do as it pleases"

Really?  Then why not subject Government clearance holders to waterboarding during their BI?  Is mental torture humane and moral?  Who made that decision? 

The methods used by polygraphers to extract information are identical to the methods used by the former East German STASI.  Threats of loss of livelihood (made real), extensive interrogation followed by isolation, lies to extract confessions absent any previous evidence of wrongdoing, etc, etc.  The big difference is that the STASI only used these tactics against perceived enemies of their state.   The polygraph thugs use these tactics against their own comrades to make an easy living and a fast buck.  Ultimate traitors they are.
  
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Re: DIA's Insider Threat Program
Reply #44 - Mar 14th, 2017 at 3:17am
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it’s time for the EPPA to be expanded to include government employees.


https://antipolygraph.org/ceppa.shtml
  
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