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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) For those that think all of us are trying to lie about molestation... (Read 7729 times)
getrealalready
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Re: For those that think all of us are trying to lie about molestation...
Reply #15 - Jul 16th, 2016 at 3:55pm
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Pailryder,

Sorry pal, but you miss the whole point. 

This is not about liking or disliking the people/types you mention or even the Texas Department of Corrections, but it is about trust...what sort of a moron would trust his well being to someone who has devoted his professional life to quackery or to another who uses second-hand quackery to make decisions about the examinee's compliance and treatment?  Certainly no rational person that I know comes to mind...

Thank goodness there is a glimmer of hope regarding this matter and hope for better things yet to come...

https://antipolygraph.org/blog/2016/05/15/federal-appeals-court-rules-certain-ma...

Edited to fix hyperlinking. -- AntiPolygraph.org Administrator
  
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George W. Maschke
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Re: For those that think all of us are trying to lie about molestation...
Reply #16 - Jul 17th, 2016 at 8:06am
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Ex Member wrote on Jul 15th, 2016 at 2:36pm:
Forgive me George, but your intense disdain for the polygraph sometimes results in collateral damage in your judgement. Polygraph or not, I don't think having waldenrefugee in perpetual brown study about how to get over on his polygraph is a good place for him to be. He needs to move forward with his life and stop having sex with underage girls.


Arkhangelsk,

There's nothing to forgive. I appreciate your candor. However, I don't see where my judgment is damaged. Rather, I think those with damaged judgment are the public officials and therapists who rely on the pseudoscience of polygraphy.

  

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Re: For those that think all of us are trying to lie about molestation...
Reply #17 - Jul 17th, 2016 at 10:48pm
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George W. Maschke wrote on Jul 17th, 2016 at 8:06am:
I don't see where my judgment is damaged.


Maybe I'm wrong George, but the fact that his treatment provider uses polygraphy appears to impede your consideration of the notion that, despite this failing, he may none-the-less be able give waldenrefugee some effective psychotherapy and thus reducing the chances of him spending the rest of his life in prison.
  
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Re: For those that think all of us are trying to lie about molestation...
Reply #18 - Jul 18th, 2016 at 2:05am
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Ex Member wrote on Jul 17th, 2016 at 10:48pm:
George W. Maschke wrote on Jul 17th, 2016 at 8:06am:
I don't see where my judgment is damaged.


Maybe I'm wrong George, but the fact that his treatment provider uses polygraphy appears to impede your consideration of the notion that, despite this failing, he may none-the-less be able give waldenrefugee some effective psychotherapy and thus reducing the chances of him spending the rest of his life in prison.


So, Ark...do you approve of the bogus pipeline if it serves the (perceived) greater good?
  
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Re: For those that think all of us are trying to lie about molestation...
Reply #19 - Jul 18th, 2016 at 3:09am
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I was more focused on this one instance rather than the greater good. Suggesting that this fellow develop the skills to ensure he can beat the polygraph and get over on his "quack therapist" may alleviate his immediate legal worries, but may not serve him well in the long run. The faulty thinking that makes it okay to have sex with minors is something that is hard for some to auto-correct.

Previously, when I stated that admitting to viewing Jurassic World could be taken as a sign of progress in the treatment, I was referring to bringing it up directly to the therapist long before the polygraph appointment is made; not under post test interrogation.

As Pailryder noted, his violations could be more egregious than watching Jurassic World, and if this is the case, he should be directed to consult with his attorney. Having him stuff these things into a secret box and successfully fooling his therapist and polygrapher, IMHO would just keep him in a dark bad place which would eventually consume him.
  
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George W. Maschke
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Re: For those that think all of us are trying to lie about molestation...
Reply #20 - Jul 18th, 2016 at 4:48am
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Ex Member wrote on Jul 17th, 2016 at 10:48pm:
George W. Maschke wrote on Jul 17th, 2016 at 8:06am:
I don't see where my judgment is damaged.


Maybe I'm wrong George, but the fact that his treatment provider uses polygraphy appears to impede your consideration of the notion that, despite this failing, he may none-the-less be able give waldenrefugee some effective psychotherapy and thus reducing the chances of him spending the rest of his life in prison.


I don't deny that there may be something of value in the therapy waldenrefugee is compelled to undergo. But I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that such is the case.

Note that I haven't advised waldenrefugee whether or not to make any admissions or to use polygraph countermeasures. But I think he would be wise to make informed decisions regarding these questions.
« Last Edit: Jul 19th, 2016 at 12:37pm by George W. Maschke »  

George W. Maschke
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Re: For those that think all of us are trying to lie about molestation...
Reply #21 - Jul 18th, 2016 at 12:43pm
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Ark,

I still have to completely disagree.  Although there clearly are some good examples of past error in judgment (perhaps unrelated to or perhaps peripheral to and which can be isolated from future performance) not preventing successful future and overall performance (e.g., Michael Phelps continuing to win Olympic gold medals, set world records, and become the greatest swimmer of all time after Cannabis use, DUI occurrences, etc), I don't believe that is the case with the psychotherapist using polygraph results as a basis for diagnosis and subsequent treatment.

In the scenario we have been discussing, the polygraph results and conclusions that are offered by the polygrapher and accepted by the psychotherapist are foundational to and determine everything (diagnosis/treatment) that follows.  Error accepted which is foundational to all that follows presents a fatal flaw in this flow of events.  If one is serious about obtaining a reliably successful outcome, this introduction of early error has to be eliminated or the process should be discontinued.

As George has also suggested, I offer no judgment on the value of psychotherapy for intended purposes in the absence of lie detection-introduced error, but I am steadfast in maintaining the worthlessness (and perhaps worse than worthless depending on what actions follow the introduction of error) of such a procedure in the presence of this foundational error.
« Last Edit: Jul 18th, 2016 at 1:57pm by Drew Richardson »  
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Re: For those that think all of us are trying to lie about molestation...
Reply #22 - Jul 18th, 2016 at 5:01pm
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That's a chilling indictment of the current sex offender treatment paradigm Doc. If its foundation is indeed flawed, then not only are millions of dollars in resources being wasted, but more insidiously, a false sense of security has been bestowed upon gullible communities.
  
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Re: For those that think all of us are trying to lie about molestation...
Reply #23 - Jul 18th, 2016 at 5:19pm
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Ark,

I believe the foundation is indeed badly flawed, and I agree with your assessment of some of the negative consequences stemming from these flaws.
« Last Edit: Jul 18th, 2016 at 10:19pm by Drew Richardson »  
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Re: For those that think all of us are trying to lie about molestation...
Reply #24 - Jul 23rd, 2016 at 12:53am
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As somebody that has served time on a sex offender unit in the state of Texas, let me offer a little awareness here that might support Doc's argument.

I would estimate about 40% of the inmates there that I did time with were men that were between 17 and 25 when the offense was committed and their sexual partner was between 14 and 16. I'm sure this will start a shitstorm in here, but I don't view a consensual relationship between a teenager of eighteen and one of fifteen as morally reprehensible. But now we are permanently seen as the worst of monsters in our communities. I'll probably end up back in prison for not finding a job honestly, so this polygraph likely won't matter one way or the other. Who wants to hire a sex offender, regardless of the explanation behind it? You aren't human now. You are a scarlet letter or in this case, three scarlet letters; RSO.
  
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Re: For those that think all of us are trying to lie about molestation...
Reply #25 - Jul 23rd, 2016 at 3:20am
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Quote:
As somebody that has served time on a sex offender unit in the state of Texas, let me offer a little awareness here that might support Doc's argument.

I would estimate about 40% of the inmates there that I did time with were men that were between 17 and 25 when the offense was committed and their sexual partner was between 14 and 16. I'm sure this will start a shitstorm in here, but I don't view a consensual relationship between a teenager of eighteen and one of fifteen as morally reprehensible. But now we are permanently seen as the worst of monsters in our communities. I'll probably end up back in prison for not finding a job honestly, so this polygraph likely won't matter one way or the other. Who wants to hire a sex offender, regardless of the explanation behind it? You aren't human now. You are a scarlet letter or in this case, three scarlet letters; RSO.


waldenrefugee,

I'm sorry for your situation and I can somewhat empathize.  Our justice system, particularly in the southern U.S., needs some revamping.  The laws are outdated and we (the U.S.) send more non-violent offenders to jail than anywhere else in the country.  In high school and college, many teenage males who are 18 and 19 have girlfriends who are a few years younger.  It is natural.  Most women like older men, and most men like younger women.  How can someone be jailed for something like this?  These relationships are generally consensual between two adolescents, no matter who is legal age and who is not.  Women mature faster than men anyway, so the boy and girl are usually on the same level of maturity.

I personally am now in a very tough situation.  I have a good education, good job, high level security clearance, and until recently had no arrests and no criminal history.  However, a certain southern state decided that me trashing a motel room constituted felony vandalism, and I was booked and charged.  Instead of just receiving a bill from the motel, like every other hotel/motel does when you have incidental expenses, they called the cops and a warrant was issued for my arrest.  Now I'm in jeopardy of losing my clearance, thus my job, being unable to get any other job with a criminal record, all my professional credentials, right to vote, freedom, and the list goes on.  All for something that could have been settled in civil court or with a bill to me.  I've lawyered up and am fighting this tooth and nail, hoping to settle this pre-trial and get an expungement.   

This is not the first hit on my security clearance.  I also have a previous clearance denial from a failed polygraph based on false accusations, a security violation, a foreign contacts from very unfriendly countries which I reported, all this within the past 6 years.  This felony charge is probably the final straw and I can soon kiss my clearance goodbye. 

I lost all faith in our justice system years ago.  And the recent incidents of police shootings only perpetuates my distrust in our system. Anyway, these laws need to change.  The taxpayer dollars do not need to be spent on jailing people for silly victimless crimes, or crimes that can be settled with a bill without any permanent damage to the accuser.


  
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Re: For those that think all of us are trying to lie about molestation...
Reply #26 - Jul 23rd, 2016 at 3:38am
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I meant to say that the U.S. sends more non-violent offenders to jail than anywhere else in the WORLD.
  
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Re: For those that think all of us are trying to lie about molestation...
Reply #27 - Jul 25th, 2016 at 5:08am
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Where I live (WI) there is a charge known as "criminal damage to property".  It can be a misdemeanor or felony depending upon the amount of damage.

I suppose that the line between what is considered a civil matter and a criminal charge can be very fuzzy indeed, and the decision is probably based heavily on the responding officer's judgement call.
I don't know what effect a felony of this type would have on your TS clearance.  In the IC, I suspect that it could be problematic. Undecided
  

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Re: For those that think all of us are trying to lie about molestation...
Reply #28 - Jul 25th, 2016 at 10:49am
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Quote:
As somebody that has served time on a sex offender unit in the state of Texas, let me offer a little awareness here that might support Doc's argument.

I would estimate about 40% of the inmates there that I did time with were men that were between 17 and 25 when the offense was committed and their sexual partner was between 14 and 16. I'm sure this will start a shitstorm in here, but I don't view a consensual relationship between a teenager of eighteen and one of fifteen as morally reprehensible. But now we are permanently seen as the worst of monsters in our communities. I'll probably end up back in prison for not finding a job honestly, so this polygraph likely won't matter one way or the other. Who wants to hire a sex offender, regardless of the explanation behind it? You aren't human now. You are a scarlet letter or in this case, three scarlet letters; RSO.


Sexually active teen males need to become more aware of the major "watershed" they are passing once they turn 18. Roll Eyes
  

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and Office of Personnel drowns in the Potomac?   A great beginning!

The best intelligence community employee is a compromised IC employee!
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Re: For those that think all of us are trying to lie about molestation...
Reply #29 - Aug 1st, 2016 at 11:01pm
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Ex Member wrote on Jul 15th, 2016 at 5:52am:
Sexual relations with girls younger than 17 is usually considered a form of paraphilia in need of psychotherapy. I think his best path forward is to be positive and learn from his therapists about making better decisions.


Who usually considers sex with a 17 year old a form of paraphilia?  That statement alone is pure quackery.  No respectable therapist, psychologist or psychiatrist would ever consider that a paraphilia, especially when he is only four years older.  There is nothing abdnormal or pathalogical about it.  To delve further into such a statement, no respectable mental heath provider would even consider hebephilia or ephebephilia treatable, unless it was leading to other more severe mental health concerns.  All of the above are considered normal and aren't listed as disorders in major diagnostics manuals.  The problem we are facing with so called "sex offense therapy" is that it isn't providing treatment for disorder, but simply for undesirable actions or behaviors.  In some states it's so ideological and non-scientific that it would best be compared to praying the gay away. 
  
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