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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) American Polygraph Association Elections: Race for president-elect pits Daniel Mangan against Patrick O'Burke (Read 104375 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Joe McCarthy
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Re: American Polygraph Association Elections: Race for president-elect pits Daniel Mangan against Patrick O'Burke
Reply #45 - Jul 2nd, 2015 at 1:13am
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no wonder why people have been so pissed at me for calling Maria Holden et al. out to the carpet publicly.  Moreoever, it is no wonder why they have been so silent on the issue.   

Having said that, the industry, in Texas at least, has to make a choice.  Either they will have to admit that they don't believe in their own test, or they will have to admit that someone in the group of Texas examiners has been lying and that person was afraid of being caught in their lie.

Because if they think I am letting it go now, they are out of their minds.  I'll have been using it in my marketing and every defense attorney me and Karen will talk to will have a list of examiners who don't believe in their own tests.  This will make for some interesting revocation hearings.

Not to mention that I am teaching defense attorneys to score charts, so there will be a lot more chart subpoenas in the future.

But this was their choice.

The days of 45% inconclusive rates and double dipping fees is coming to an end in Texas.   

Anyway, Mr. and Miss Holden, along with all their buddies named in earlier posts are charlatans and snake oil salesmen/women.  either that or they are liars and guilty of the racism, sexism, terrorism and libel I have been accusing them of.   

IS this something that should not be addressed on a national level before the lack of integrity these examiners boldly hold dear infects the rest of the industry?


  

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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Dan Mangan
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Re: American Polygraph Association Elections: Race for president-elect pits Daniel Mangan against Patrick O'Burke
Reply #46 - Jul 2nd, 2015 at 2:05am
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Ray, do you or do you not support a bill of rights for polygraph examinees?

Also, my study merely showed what *can* happen under optimal circumstances. It should not be construed as what *will* happen.

As for a countermeasure challlenge series, doing it your way means the randomness of examiner selection that happens in real life can't be achieved, rendering the method useless.

Polygraph's absolute accuracy is unknown and is unknowable.

People should be made aware of that.

It's a virtual racket, with precious little protection for the consumer.

People ought to know that too.

But that would be bad for business, so such "informed consent" will never be embraced by the industry -- and therein lies the polygraph hu$tle.
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Joe McCarthy
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Re: American Polygraph Association Elections: Race for president-elect pits Daniel Mangan against Patrick O'Burke
Reply #47 - Jul 2nd, 2015 at 2:09am
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actually Ray, I am being smart.  I am trying to get some answers to tough questions.  Personally, I'd rather be getting the answers in private, but it seems I get more here than I get behind closed doors.

I know I am not brief, and I am trying to be more descriptive.  Ugh, my issue is just such, to quote someone else "a colossal mess;" brief and descriptive together is hard if not impossible.

You know I am not totally on Dan's side in regard to accuracy, but the actions of some APA members is making me wonder.

On the subject of using the polygraph to investigate or resolve conflicts among polygraph examiners... their is a broader discussion that Joe hints at regarding the concept of "injurious conduct" and whether it is or is not the role of a professional association to mediate or adjudicate personality or professional conflicts. If there is violation of a written code then that is different. But without submitting it in writing to the proper authorities that publish or enforce those code, most associations can and will do nothing without violating their rules and exposing themselves to more complex problems. 


I was brought before a disciplinary hearing over the past year over "personality and professional conflicts," so it seems when the conflict is directed personally to me, I can be held to account, but everyone else gets a free pass.  I am forbidden to and have no desire to get into greater detail here, but sorry, and with all due respect, it seems associations are happy to hold my feet to the fire for personal conflicts, but this seems a one way street.  

Moreover, it seems I am taken more seriously here than when I try to address the issue privately.  I have begged for a peaceful mediation, only to be ignored, marginalized, or outright called a liar about my grievance, even with all the clear evidence that supports my accusations.  

I'd rather work this out privately, but the examiners involved seem to want this to be aired here or ignore the situation totally in the hopes that I will get tired and walk away.  I can say the latter won't happen.

I keep hoping that the influencers will influence a mediation and thus an end to this for the better of the industry.  

You know, if the APA influenced TAPE to follow their own bylaws, none of this would even be damn issue right now.  If there were consequences to TAPE not following their own bylaws, none of this would be an issue right now.  Fact is, there is no oversight and state private associations are allowed to write their own fictional narratives and libel and slander those they see as an enemy to essentially blacklist someone because of a personal vendetta and nothing more.

When the APA doesn't even ask any questions, then they think this is acceptable behavior that can be engaged in with impunity.

I guarantee that between now and January of Next year, a private association will be asked to punish me over a personal conflict.  I would bet dimes to doughnuts I will be punished for what you call a "personal conflict." Because regulating perusal conflicts is not the job of a professional organization, unless of course the complaint is about Joe McCarthy and then it's all fair game.

I keep hoping to be proven wrong, I want to be wrong, I WOULD LOVE TO BE WRONG; sadly the examiners involved keep proving me right.  

Ugh, it baffles me when I think that this was all done last october until the Texas examiners made the decision that levying me alone was simply too much for them to agree and comply with.

Fact is, Maria et al have made it very clear that this will not be over till they run me out.  So you tell me what I should do.  DO I roll over and let it happen, or do I fight?  Because ignoring them will not make it go away.  I tried that from 2009 to 2014.  

Now, off that soapbox.

Marketing a 100% accuracy rate, I will agree is a bad idea.

In regard to a "hustle," I think any hustle is unnecessary as if we do business honestly, there is more than enough for everyone.

Greed and power will be the eventual undoing of this industry.  But hey, what do I know.

Sorry is I sound frustrated, but this is frustrating.  

We do need to talk privately though Ray, it has nothing to do with this situation
« Last Edit: Jul 2nd, 2015 at 3:10am by Joe McCarthy »  

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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Joe McCarthy
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Re: American Polygraph Association Elections: Race for president-elect pits Daniel Mangan against Patrick O'Burke
Reply #48 - Jul 2nd, 2015 at 3:24am
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Bottom line, I did not want to come here; this is where the conversation and debate was driven.

Ben made me realize that the conversation behind closed doors was not being taken seriously.  As long at the Texas examiners were allowed to hide behind closed doors and the excuse makers like Ben, they will always be protected and untouchable.

I am not here because I want to be, I made every effort to avoid it.  I am here because I have to be, there is no place left to get to be heard.  If you have a better idea to SOLVE this, my ears are totally open.  NOTE submission and ignoring them is no longer an option.  I am done being told to curl up in a ball and take their abuse.

So is you get a better idea, I would love to hear it.  my number and email is no secret.
  

Joe
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Dan Mangan
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Re: American Polygraph Association Elections: Race for president-elect pits Daniel Mangan against Patrick O'Burke
Reply #49 - Jul 2nd, 2015 at 11:36am
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Joe, I am hoping that a sizable number of responsible APA members will learn of the situation you describe, and choose to avoid putting another quarter in the election jukebox to play yet another Texas Two-Step tune, so to speak.

As APA president-elect, I would begin to set into motion a process by which the alleged shenanigans, if documented to be true as you say they are, would be subject to suffering close scrutiny by certain news media resources known to look upon polygraph with a jaundiced eye.

Allow me to emphasize that such an eventuality would occur only if there is ample evidence to justify unleashing a hungry pack of investigative reporting hounds.

In my APA candidate statement I wrote that as president-elect I will work tirelessly to bring truth, honesty and accountability to the polygraph profession. 

It is my position that polygraph has serious credibility problems which must be addressed.
« Last Edit: Jul 2nd, 2015 at 7:30pm by Dan Mangan »  
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Re: American Polygraph Association Elections: Race for president-elect pits Daniel Mangan against Patrick O'Burke
Reply #50 - Jul 2nd, 2015 at 1:14pm
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pailryder wrote on Jul 1st, 2015 at 12:22pm:
So Dan, did you author a study claiming 100 percent accuracy for a polygraph technique?  Harder question, can you limit your answer to a yes or no?

Dan Mangan wrote on Jul 1st, 2015 at 1:07pm:
pailryder, I'm sick of dealing with on-line phantoms such as you, and getting the dodge from polygraph apologists such as Raymond Nelson.

I will respond to your inquiry after you have fully identified youself (and your identity has been independently verified), and APA president Nelson answers the questions I posed to him immediately prior to your post.

Fair enough?


So the answer to my first question was yes and the second no.
  

No good social purpose can be served by inventing ways of beating the lie detector or deceiving polygraphers.   David Thoreson Lykken
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Re: American Polygraph Association Elections: Race for president-elect pits Daniel Mangan against Patrick O'Burke
Reply #51 - Jul 2nd, 2015 at 1:55pm
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pailryder, I have no control over what you choose to believe, just as you have no control over those who believe anonymous posters are cowards.
  
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Re: American Polygraph Association Elections: Race for president-elect pits Daniel Mangan against Patrick O'Burke
Reply #52 - Jul 2nd, 2015 at 11:09pm
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I have a sneaking suspicion that pailryder is an active fed who has gotten a head start on the July 4th holiday weekend. 

It reminds me of a "respected" polygraph instructor at NCCA whose online footprint suggests he spends a lot of time cruising personal-interest websites at taxpayer expense during the time-honored gummint work day.

Of course, I could be wrong, in which case I apologize to all of those hardworking polygraph professionals at NCCA.
  
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Re: American Polygraph Association Elections: Race for president-elect pits Daniel Mangan against Patrick O'Burke
Reply #53 - Jul 3rd, 2015 at 3:45am
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Dan Mangan wrote on Jul 2nd, 2015 at 11:09pm:
I have a sneaking suspicion that pailryder is an active fed who has gotten a head start on the July 4th holiday weekend.


I have had a lot of exchanges with pailryder and I believe he is a private examiner who has been around for quite a while.
  
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Re: American Polygraph Association Elections: Race for president-elect pits Daniel Mangan against Patrick O'Burke
Reply #54 - Jul 3rd, 2015 at 11:28am
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Thank you Ark, you are correct I'm a private examiner.   GM and others know my identity.  I will tell you privately, one phantom to another, word in the poly circle is that Dan is a good guy, but it takes him an hour and a half to watch 60 Minutes.

Have a happy and safe holiday!
  

No good social purpose can be served by inventing ways of beating the lie detector or deceiving polygraphers.   David Thoreson Lykken
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Re: American Polygraph Association Elections: Race for president-elect pits Daniel Mangan against Patrick O'Burke
Reply #55 - Jul 3rd, 2015 at 12:32pm
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pailryder, if you're a voting member of the APA -- (only about 20% of the organization bothers to cast a ballot) -- I'd appreciate your support in the week-long election cycle that starts Sunday July 5th.

Please help me reduce polygraph victimization by paving the way for a bill of rights, face the Countermeasure Bogeyman head on with a CM challenge series, and otherwise shake things up in an industry whose insular qualities have mired it in 1950s thinking.

Oh, lest anyone forget that polygraph is seen as much as religion as it is science, I encourage them to read "Polygraph Examiner's Prayer" on pages 44-45 of the APA's May/June magazine.

It reads in part:

"Thank You for blessing me with the
knowledge to recognize truth and
detect deception;
Always help me to remember that my
skills have the power to clear the innocent
and capture the guilty"

And some people wonder why polygraph remains the Rodney Dangerfield of the forensic sciences...
« Last Edit: Jul 3rd, 2015 at 1:00pm by Dan Mangan »  
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Re: American Polygraph Association Elections: Race for president-elect pits Daniel Mangan against Patrick O'Burke
Reply #56 - Jul 3rd, 2015 at 3:21pm
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dan, I hate to side with this pailryder guy, but it's not about personal feelings; it's about right and wrong.   

His question is fair, but I do think his yes or no stipulations is over the top.   

Having said that, I have noticed he is avoiding my yes or no questions.   

So it seems that yes or no questions are a one way street.  Having said that, you are running for office and in my opinion have an obligation to answer a fair question.

I think leadership is measures with answering the tough questions as well as the easy questions.

  

Joe
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Joe McCarthy
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Re: American Polygraph Association Elections: Race for president-elect pits Daniel Mangan against Patrick O'Burke
Reply #57 - Jul 3rd, 2015 at 3:30pm
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Dan Mangan wrote on Jul 2nd, 2015 at 11:36am:
Joe, I am hoping that a sizable number of responsible APA members will learn of the situation you describe, and choose to avoid putting another quarter in the election jukebox to play yet another Texas Two-Step tune, so to speak.

As APA president-elect, I would begin to set into motion a process by which the alleged shenanigans, if documented to be true as you say they are, would be subject to suffering close scrutiny by certain news media resources known to look upon polygraph with a jaundiced eye.

Allow me to emphasize that such an eventuality would occur only if there is ample evidence to justify unleashing a hungry pack of investigative reporting hounds.

In my APA candidate statement I wrote that as president-elect I will work tirelessly to bring truth, honesty and accountability to the polygraph profession. 

It is my position that polygraph has serious credibility problems which must be addressed.


Let me just say for the record, I have met Pat O' Burke.  I know him to be a good man that wants nothing to do with the Texas politics.  He has never wronged me in any way and as far as I can see, he has not been involved in the Texas colossal mess.  My wife went to his polygraph school and he treated her with kindness and respect.

Until I see or know something different than what I see or know right now, he will be treated with the respect he has showed me and my wife, plus three fold.  

I'll make it more clear, I do not think he is a part of any "texas two step" conspiracy. In fact, he is one of about three or four examiners in Texas that I would trust as being unbiased in my matter.

Until he or someone proves me wrong, that is my position

Having said that, you are the only one that has said publicly that this issue deserves a review, which it does
  

Joe
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Re: American Polygraph Association Elections: Race for president-elect pits Daniel Mangan against Patrick O'Burke
Reply #58 - Jul 3rd, 2015 at 4:00pm
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The sentiments found in the aforementioned "Polygraph Examiner's Prayer" seem to be part and parcel of official APA events.

For example, APA seminars routinely begin with a Christian minister making an invocation to God, essentially asking the Supreme Being to imbue APA members with lie-detection powers.

If polygraph is scientifically valid, are are such supplications to the supernatural necessary?

Then again, it strikes me that the leadership component of the polygraph establishment has, through the years, been a WASP bastion primarily made up of older white guys.

I sincerely hope the rapidly growing international membership branch of the APA takes note of this and becomes more active in APA politics.
  
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Re: American Polygraph Association Elections: Race for president-elect pits Daniel Mangan against Patrick O'Burke
Reply #59 - Jul 3rd, 2015 at 10:18pm
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Dan Mangan wrote on Jul 3rd, 2015 at 12:32pm:
"Thank You for blessing me with the
knowledge to recognize truth and
detect deception;
Always help me to remember that my
skills have the power to clear the innocent
and capture the guilty"


Is this serious ?  This is scary.  How about adding, ".....my [perceived] skills have the power to falsely accuse and condemn or allow the guilty to go free"
  
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