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Re: THE TRUTH ABOUT THE TEXAS POLYGRAPH INDUSTRY
Reply #45 - Jun 6th, 2015 at 2:10am
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Joe McCarthy wrote on Jun 5th, 2015 at 6:57pm:
kinda funny when you think about it, My name being Joe McCarthy and being opposed to blacklisting

The irony had previously crossed my mind. I'm still digesting your epistles.
  
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Re: THE TRUTH ABOUT THE TEXAS POLYGRAPH INDUSTRY
Reply #46 - Jun 7th, 2015 at 6:32pm
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I understand, when you haven't lived it, it is an awful lot to digest.

Having said that, I want to make clear again, I know there are a lotos people at AP who couldn't care less about this problem.  I understand that I am a polygraph examiner who believes in his job, and therefore it is understandable that there is little to no sympathy. I know I have less friends here than in the polygraph community.  Trust me, I came here knowing and understanding this.  I know I am just another examiner to you guys and therefore hated as much as you hate them.   

Fact is, if there is going to be polygraph, there has to be an anti polygraph; this creates balance.  I feel nothing in the world should go unchallenged.  Any person, institution, test, or procedure should not have that kind of unfettered total control.  I have found the human element of polygraph wants and likes the idid of not being challenged.  They like Asking the questions, but hate answering them.  They love forcing people to to be honest; but seem to, at least in the case of some on Texas, have a huge problem with honestly themselves.  In Texas, the leadership in Texas polygraph seem to want this to be a system of hypocrisy.   

What's funny to me is the people coming up out of nowhere with information.  Seriously, I have heard from a few totally unexpected people this weekend.  It's amazing the things you learn from people when they start getting brave enough to step forward.   

I am showing people that TAPE and it's little Board of Directors, Committee and the charlatans who pull the strings are not as bulletproof as one would think.  One could say that they are "the biggest pussies in the room, with all of the control."  Wink wink, you know who I am talking about in that..... "Hen" house? Huh Sound familiar anyone?  Might be something to think about next time you're thinking deep thoughts in can; just don't stay in there too long; it's wrong to keep someone waiting after all.

I have to do some fact checking and confirm a few things; but worry not guys, one would be amazed what one can find when one knows where to dig.  Better yet, you may want to be worried if I find the information, and it's true.  Because if what I hear is true, I may have more evidence of racism in the Texas Polygraph industry soon, and it will go up here. Not a good time for cops or retired cops to be connected to racism, especially in clear cases that may have had someone removed from important positions before.

Now, having said that, the person who may have been involved with that situation I'm investigating is watching this thread and I know that for a fact. A lot of examiners in Texas are watching to see if their name turns up here.  All I can say to that person is this, you have been warned that I am digging for this information; and if it is out there, I will find it.  I promise, it is not a matter of if, it's a matter of when.  Now, having said that, I have fulfilled my obligation to give you due warning.  If what I am looking for is true, and can be found, I have an obligation to allow you to opt out.  I would suggest you use my phone and govern yourself accordingly.

I have even gotten calls from people telling me more about one of my friends mentioned in the recent posts  that I will be checking into as well.

All kinds of conversations have happened this weekend.  Information and documentation is on the way in some cases, and in others I have to go digging.  The best thing about it is I know where to dig, and because their games, I have plenty of time.  Idle hands will always find a way.

If they won't clean their own house and reconcile their karmic ledger (so to speak) on their own, I will have to do it for them by showing the world the dirt so they are forced to clean up.




  

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Re: THE TRUTH ABOUT THE TEXAS POLYGRAPH INDUSTRY
Reply #47 - Jun 8th, 2015 at 2:13pm
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Joe, I agree with you about the hypocrisy. In my opinion, the polygraph industry is rife with hypocrisy. For example, the polygraph cheerleaders don't want anything to do with either a bill of rights for test subjects (alerting potential test takers to the risks, realities and limitations of polygraph testing), or any form of a countermeasure challenge.

Why the staunch opposition? Such initiatives would have a profound effect on polygraph's commercial viability. 

If would-be polygraph takers knew what the risks really are, most would opt out of the "test."

As for a countermeasure challenge series, I predict about half of the CM ringers would beat the box.

Clearly, neither of those scenarios would be good for business.

BTW, Joe, if the matters of racism you spoke of turn out to be substantive, you might want to consider contacting Marisa Taylor of McClatchy News Service. Ms Taylor has successfully reported, quite extensively, on some of polygraph's troubling inside issues, so she may find your information to be of very high value.

In my view, the polygraph industry needs both a stern reality check and some serious house cleaning.

Daniel Mangan, M.A.
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« Last Edit: Jun 8th, 2015 at 6:18pm by Dan Mangan »  
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Re: THE TRUTH ABOUT THE TEXAS POLYGRAPH INDUSTRY
Reply #48 - Jun 8th, 2015 at 4:04pm
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I am sure Melissa is watching and waiting to see how far the rabbit hole goes.  I am very sure of this.   

What shocks me Dan, these guys know what I have, and they know what else I will find that they can't hide.  I am shocked that they are not trying to stop the bleeding.   

There is only so much finger pointing and victim stancing they can do.  They absolutely choose to prove that they are people of good character and take some responsibility.  Instead of being men, they choose to be little boys and girls who want to play victim and blame someone else for 100% of their bad behavior getting out.

And these are people that are supposed to be bringing sex offenders out of denial?  wow

They can't help but to submerge themselves in denial themselves.  I have even given these people a chance to come clean to me in private where it would stay.  They refuse to look in the mirror and say "it was me too, I have some responsibility"

Even when I talked to Rios in October and asked him why he lied to me just months before, he couldn't admit that he lied and apologize.  All I wanted was an apology.  That is free and only costs a few seconds of ego.  Have any of them ever thought that once they tell the truth and take some responsibility, then I have no more reason to complain?  Once they tell the truth there is nothing to expose, there is no more controversy.

You people in Texas can't be this stupid.  Is't it easier to just fess up to it, say you were wrong and fix it rather then have me come here and expose it all? Really, I have to teach you people how to take responsibility?  Really?

Prove me wrong.   

  

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Re: THE TRUTH ABOUT THE TEXAS POLYGRAPH INDUSTRY
Reply #49 - Jun 8th, 2015 at 4:46pm
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Joe, history repeats itself -- first as tragedy, then as farce. It looks like these Texans are fighting their very own Alamo...

BTW, I misspoke earlier. The polygraph investigator from McClatchy News is *Marisa* Taylor, not Melissa. I have since corrected that post.
« Last Edit: Jun 8th, 2015 at 6:22pm by Dan Mangan »  
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Re: THE TRUTH ABOUT THE TEXAS POLYGRAPH INDUSTRY
Reply #50 - Jun 9th, 2015 at 12:25am
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Ya know Dan, I can't figure these people out.  If I had been them, I would have simply fessed up on the lieguytoo thing and condemned his actions and racism as quickly as possible to take any ammunition away from me or render it inert.  There was an easy way to turn that into PR gold and avoid the PR nightmare.  Instead, even though today, they want to bury what happened and deny it ever took place.  I guess denial is easier than taking responsibility for their own actions.  Wait is that not a criminal thinking error of some sort?  

What's really sad is the people at the head of the denial are either current and former law enforcement officers.  Not a good time to look racist guys, just saying.  

Rios would rather damage his own credibility by protecting these people rather than be a real leader and stand up for the right thing.  

I also think Rios thought I would simply give up on my CEU's last year.  Fact is, it was messing with my license last year that set this off where I saw that these people were never going to let this go, while they expect me to let it go.  

Then in October they went back on their sweetheart deal I gave them, and that's when I saw that they never really will never walk away from all this because according to that deal, that is all they were required to do; walk away.  No admissions of wrong doing, no apologies, no allowing me back into TAPE.  The agreement was, I leave them alone, they leave me alone.  They were fine with the me leaving them alone part, but had a problem when it came to agreeing to leave me alone.  How do you blow a deal like that?

SO much for the "joe just wants a fight," argument.

Ya know what's really stupid, if they had kept their word and honored their handshakes, all the documentation I have against them would have been burned in a bonfire in December of last year.  Right now, I would have had nothing.  Morons.

Then Maria just had to keep poking the bear.  Didn't know how to leave well enough alone, so she just kept this whole thing going.  

I have been accused of being the person stirring the pot.  Yet no one is willing to look at the fact that the pot, water and ingredients in the pot all belong to TAPE and the examiners involved and then they handed me the stick in early 2014.  Between 2009 and 2014 there was no pit, no stick and no fire.  

I also find it interesting and odd that Maria's divorce was filed just a couple weeks after Maria filed her BS complaint against me in September of 2014.   Don't know what to make of this, but the timing is strange to say the least.  All in good time though.  I'm sure I will know everything all in good time.

Gotta wonder if Clayton Wood's wife knew about what was going on or knows the truth about what is going on between Clayton and Maria?  I have actually spoken to a few examiners in Texas who have called me in shock of seeing Clayton involved with something like this.  I got to be honest, I was shocked too.  

But not if you look at how the pattern of succession is in TAPE.  If old patterns hold true, either Clayton or Maria are the next in line to be president of TAPE.  Now, if one were to look at the list of names on the above listed TRO, one can easily speculate that she may be positioning herself (phrasing) for the presidency in a very special way.  Of course I am just speculating based of a clear pattern of behavior one can easily derive from her past proven behaviors and the recent TRO.  

Either way, one of them will be TAPE president by the end of the year and I suspect, it won't be on their "merits" as a polygraph examiner.  Sorry that is the appearance of impropriety TAPE seems willing to be ok with and accept. 

But this is how polygraph examiners succeed in Texas, not by their merits or the good work they do, but because of who ya know or who ya....well you get the idea.  

Again 45% inconclusive is not an indicator that one is doing a good job; and examiners who run from their own tests that would solve what they claim is a "damaging" controversy is not what one would call meritorious.

And TAPE seems ok that these are their examples of exemplary examiners; worthy of the privilege of directing Texas polygraph into a direction of prosperity and the example of good character. 

In the end, I expect the retaliation to start soon.  TAPE and Maria and the examiners involved will file their internal complaint because they know the industry will do more to protect them and thereby themselves rather than admit there has been and is still an ethics problem no one is strong enough to admit and handle.  It's easier to take out the person shinning the light on the mess than it is to clean it up.  

Watch, I predict that I will be totally ostracized by this time next year, not because what I am saying is a lie; but because what I am saying is the truth.

They can't help themselves

« Last Edit: Jun 9th, 2015 at 1:49am by Joe McCarthy »  

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Re: THE TRUTH ABOUT THE TEXAS POLYGRAPH INDUSTRY
Reply #51 - Jun 9th, 2015 at 2:35am
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I wonder why this happened?  Actually, that was a rhetorical question, I know why; but all in due time.  


"TO THE SENATE OF THE SEVENTY-NINTH LEGISLATURE, REGULAR SESSION:
On January 18, 2005, I submitted the name of Kelly B. Hendricks of Humble for appointment to the Polygraph Examiners Board for a term to expire June 18, 2009.
I hereby withdraw her (sic) nomination for this board and request that the Senate return this appointment to me.
Respectfully submitted,
/s/Rick Perry Governor"

http://www.journals.senate.state.tx.us/sjrnl/79r/pdf/sj02-16-f.pdf
  

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Re: THE TRUTH ABOUT THE TEXAS POLYGRAPH INDUSTRY
Reply #52 - Jun 9th, 2015 at 6:57pm
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On a more positive note; there is no better experience in the world than performing a polygraph and knowing that the test you just performed helped that person enter the next chapter in their lives.  Every once and a while, polygraph helps people in a positive way.

It's not all negativity and interrogation
  

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Re: THE TRUTH ABOUT THE TEXAS POLYGRAPH INDUSTRY
Reply #53 - Jun 9th, 2015 at 9:54pm
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Joe McCarthy wrote on Jun 7th, 2015 at 6:32pm:
I know I am just another examiner to you guys and therefore hated as much as you hate them. 


Not so Joe. This forum has matured in recent years; there is very little hate expressed. I personally am here to engage in a lively debate and I'm not entrenched on either side. In fact, you and Dan yourselves mentioned the idea of having a spirited debate with others in the industry. I welcome other polygraph examiners, their input is crucial and can add balance to the discussion. Of course, we have the ever articulate and deep thinking quickfix, but it would be nice to have a more robust industry participation.
« Last Edit: Jun 10th, 2015 at 1:15am by Ex Member »  
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Re: THE TRUTH ABOUT THE TEXAS POLYGRAPH INDUSTRY
Reply #54 - Jun 10th, 2015 at 3:52am
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Joe McCarthy wrote on Jun 9th, 2015 at 6:57pm:
there is no better experience in the world than performing a polygraph and knowing that the test you just performed helped that person enter the next chapter in their lives.  Every once and a while, polygraph helps people in a positive way.


Joe -

       I'm not being a smart alec, but am very sincerely asking how it can help a person in a positive way ?  I'll I've seen is tragedy.  People who pass seem just grateful not to be falsely accused of something.
  
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Re: THE TRUTH ABOUT THE TEXAS POLYGRAPH INDUSTRY
Reply #55 - Jun 10th, 2015 at 4:07am
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[/quote]Not so Joe. This forum has matured in recent years; there is very little hate expressed. I personally am here to engage in a lively debate and I'm not entrenched on either side. In fact, you and Dan yourself mentioned the idea of having a spirited debate with others in the industry. I welcome other polygraph examiners, their input is crucial and can add balance to the discussion. Of course, we have the ever articulate and deep thinking quick fix, but it would be nice to have a more robust industry participation. [/quote]

It will never happen on this string, and if it does, no one will attach their real name to it.  How are they going to argue with facts, documents, and irrefutable proof?  They haven't been willing to up to this point.  Polygraph examiners, especially those in Texas have avoided this issue for years. They don't have the balls to come to my office to talk to me, they lack the guts to talk to me on the phone, I would be willing to bet they don't even have the guts to talk to me on their own ground at a TAPE meeting.   

Fact is, not a one of them is man enough to look me in the eye and have an honest discussion with me.  Fact is, even if they did talk to me, they would avoid giving an honest and clear answer on the record to reasonable questions.   

I have lost all faith that these people are willing to protect their own integrity, much less have a debate or even a conversation.  They are unwilling to discuss or settle issues where there are clear acts of unethical activities in private, despite what they say or might say, I have tried before I was forced here.  Anyone who says different is a liar.

I have learned that the polygraph industry is about two things, money and power.  Examiners who truly believe in what we do are few and far between. Those who do, are afraid to stand up and demand that we look into real ethical issues. It is more important to punish a person for bring the issues to light; even when he has tried to address the issues privately before going public only to have the issues ignored or marginalized.   

I know the industry will never want to settle this issue.  I also know the Texas Examiners will hold the 2008 grudge forever; all while they tell me to "get over it and move on."  Fact is, the only one who tried to move on, has been me.  Again, I would love to have someone tell me different to my face so I cannot only call that person a liar or miss-informed; then prove it to them.   

Fact is, I just want to sit in my office, work for my clients, go to my CEU's and be left the hell alone.  I want to make a living honestly.  Believe it or not, I want them to make a living.  I sell a good product at a fair price.  They sell what they tell people is a good product and claim it is a fair price.  I want to earn my work, they feel they are entitled to it because they've been here longer and as such don't have to earn it.   

Last year I saw that this will never be truly behind me because no one in Texas will put it behind them.  They will always find a new way to try to kick me out or be a thorn in my side; even when I capitulate.  This doesn't happen because I was wrong, it happens because I know the truth.  That is why I am a danger to TAPE and the examiners involved.  They are scared that one day, someone will actually listen.  Essentially, the truth is like kryptonite to TAPE.   

So rather then be a doormat or punching bag, I decided to just plain expose the truth.  Basically, they can't do anything more to me than they already have.  I have nothing to lose and everything to gain.  And now I have put them on notice.

If TAPE and the examiners involved plan to compete with me by using lies, slander, and libel; I will compete using the truth.

If they have a problem with it, APA and others on the national scene said this is an issue for the courts and they have no jurisdiction; so get a lawyer and lets dance.  Call Tiger, file and we can start discovery ASAP.   

Otherwise, if this is going to be a pissing contest and you don't want to go behind closed doors, the fight will happen here.  This is the battle ground the industry has chosen, I tried to keep it away from here.  This is not my chosen battle ground.  I'd rather fight this at APA or NPA with people who have an interest in this Texas bullshit ending once and for all.  It is TAPE who will keep this fight going, just as they did last year.  This can stop anytime you people want.  This time, I am not backing down and I am not surrendering just for the sake of peace like I was willing to do October of last year.

Again, don't kick a sleeping dog and not expect to get bit.  Sometimes the best thing to do is give the dog a steak and hope it goes back to sleep.

  

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Re: THE TRUTH ABOUT THE TEXAS POLYGRAPH INDUSTRY
Reply #56 - Jun 10th, 2015 at 4:59am
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[quote/]
Joe -

       I'm not being a smart alec, but am very sincerely asking how it can help a person in a positive way ?  I'll I've seen is tragedy.  People who pass seem just grateful not to be falsely accused of something.  [/quote]


I don't think you are being rude at all.  All I can say is today, someone has a new start, and that makes me feel like I did something.  It's a feeling that escapes me sometimes because of all the other noise with all the other issues.  

Positive things happen with polygraph all the time.  Just like me getting wrapped up in the pessimism that surround me from fighting the liars and charlatans here in Texas; it is hard for you guys to see the good work polygraph does sometimes because you don't see the forest beyond the trees.

Sometimes the guy does get the job, or gets a professional license to start a new chapter, or someone coming to this country to be free of fear of being tortured or killed because of race creed or political belief who just wants a life that never got started.  Sometimes polygraph does catch the bad guy.  Sometimes polygraph does set the good guy free.  

Think about it for a minute. Would I have offered myself up to the test myself and put my whole life on the line based on the result if I didn't believe that this test can exact positive change?  There is a polygraph examiner in the world who publicly was willing to sit for the very test I expect other people to sit for.  Is it not enough for you that there is at least one example who is willing to lead by example?

How is this not a positive thing?  See, polygraph is not all negative and traps.

It felt good to take a few minutes and just be proud that this test procedure may have just helped someone look at the end of the tunnel and not think the light at the end was a freight train.  I got to tell you, that one test means more to me than five tests any other examiner in DFW did today.  Would the money be better if I had the five tests today, yea; but not at the expense of forgetting that I fought to get here.  Because of that, someone got a fair test and a fresh start.

That kind of feeling trickles down to other things.  I just wanted to say something here so when I read this in a couple years, I will remember there were times I wasn't always cynical and on guard.  

Sadly, it's something that passes quickly; because I realize that when I get too positive and optimistic, that is when some people decide I am at my weakest and take advantage.

Over the years I have had to adjust.  I wouldn't say I became heartless, I just learned to use me heart less.  So when I get a reminder that I still have one, I try to take advantage of it and enjoy the moment thinking that maybe everything will turn out ok.  

Then I realize where I am and who I have to deal with in this town. 
  

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Re: THE TRUTH ABOUT THE TEXAS POLYGRAPH INDUSTRY
Reply #57 - Jun 10th, 2015 at 12:26pm
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I agree with Joe, that, under the right circumstances, good things can stem from a polygraph exam.

But there's a hell of a lot of victimization that occurs in the polygraph field every day.

Such victimization could be dramatically curtailed if there existed a bill of rights for potential examinees alerting them to the risks, realities and limitations of the "test."

The polygraph industry wants nothing to do with that concept.

Similarly, the industry continues to avoid any type of substantive countermeasure challenge.

What kind of message does that send?

Meanwhile, polygraph's self-appointed intelligentsia --mainly the loyalist industry geeks, technocrats and statistical alchemists behind the public relations campaign promoting polygraph validity -- fortify their insular, make-believe world with claims that manage to escape vigorous scientific scrutiny, yet bamboozle a surprising number of people who outwardly appear smart enough to know better.

But those willing and gullible consumers, such as sexual offender treatment providers, *want* to believe in polygraph. That makes a big difference.

Joe's right about another thing... The polygraph industrialists will never appear on this forum to honestly discuss the heavy issues -- be they political, academic or otherwise -- in a meaningful way.

That in itself pretty much says it all.

Of course, all of this is just the humble opinion of one lowly polygraph operator who's trying to effect change.

Daniel Mangan, M.A.
Full Member, American Polygraph Association
Certified PCSOT Examiner
Candidate for APA President-Elect
« Last Edit: Jun 10th, 2015 at 12:55pm by Dan Mangan »  
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Re: THE TRUTH ABOUT THE TEXAS POLYGRAPH INDUSTRY
Reply #58 - Jun 10th, 2015 at 5:36pm
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I'm grateful that Joe and Dan are in the polygraph business.  I wish that I had encountered guys like them during my tribulations.  Please keep pushing guys.  You seem to represent the best way forward.   

To me, the best solution is not to make the polygraph the panacea of truth.  If someone flunks the drug use question, for example, then put that part of their lives under a microscope.  If nothing further is revealed in the BI, then DROP IT !  Today's powers to be say that it costs too much money to consider a man's (or woman's) hard earned reputation.  I think our founding father's would have said, "spend the extra money and find some other way to save $" I also dispute the lame excuse that a focused BI would cost more money. As a former investigator I can also attest to the fact that it is next to impossible to ascertain how much money would actually be spent by going the extra mile.  Government employee investigators and most contractors are salaried employees.  I don't recall money ever being an issue on an investigation.  No one ever said to me, "Good job, we've pretty much solved this case but now we must close it because we've spent too much money on it".  That is, in essence, what happens when someone has completed all processing and then gets bumped from a job strictly because of the polygraph with no follow-up investigation.
  
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Re: THE TRUTH ABOUT THE TEXAS POLYGRAPH INDUSTRY
Reply #59 - Jun 10th, 2015 at 6:33pm
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Please google the following:
AMERICAN POLYGRAPH ASSOCIATION - MODEL POLICY

The link is:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB8QFjAAahUK...

and you will find the following:
3.3      Polygraph test results should never be used as the sole basis for the selection or rejection of a law-enforcement or public-service applicant.
  
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