Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Failed Polygraph but Appealing. Any Advice? (Read 31925 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box scubadiver1
Guest


Failed Polygraph but Appealing. Any Advice?
Jun 28th, 2013 at 4:03am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
I read The Lie Behind the Lie Detector and failed miserably when I went for my polygraph.  I guess I just have too much of a conscious.  I ended up just admitting the things that I had done because they honestly were not that bad.  My SCI eligibility was of course denied, but I figured I would try to appeal.  I was actually able to mitigate the behaviors (funny how the examiner doesn't ask about mitigating circumstances and only tries to crucify you while you sit in that chair).  The only one I was not able to mitigate was "Personal Conduct", presumably for not putting the information on the SF-86 or stating it before questioning.

I'm planning to appeal in person before the appeals panel and was wondering if anyone has done this before and has any advice.  I'm also interested in seeing how I can show that I'm "stable, trustworthy, reliable, discreet, of excellent character, and sound judgment" since apparently even admitting information during a polygraph does not make you an honest person.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6230
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: Failed Polygraph but Appealing. Any Advice?
Reply #1 - Jun 28th, 2013 at 4:24am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
My advice is:

1. Retain legal counsel.

2. Review past cases that are similar to yours to find what kind of facts and evidence have successfully mitigated security concerns in the past. In this regard, see the Defense Office of Hearings and Appeals' industrial security clearance decisions:

http://www.dod.mil/dodgc/doha/industrial/

  

George W. Maschke
I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time.
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box pailryder
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 441
Joined: Jun 5th, 2006
Re: Failed Polygraph but Appealing. Any Advice?
Reply #2 - Jun 28th, 2013 at 10:35am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
scubadiver1

Quote:
apparently even admitting information during a polygraph does not make you an honest person


Yes, unfortunately you are correct, admitting you lied after you were caught lying does not make you an honest person.  You stated you read TLBTLDT, but did you understand and properly employ any cm's to protect yourself?
  

No good social purpose can be served by inventing ways of beating the lie detector or deceiving polygraphers.   David Thoreson Lykken
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Doug Williams
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 284
Joined: Feb 15th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: Failed Polygraph but Appealing. Any Advice?
Reply #3 - Jun 28th, 2013 at 1:56pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Pailryder:  It is breaking news for a polygraph operator to finally admit that a person must use "cm's" to protect themselves from being falsely branded as a liar!  CONGRATULATIONS on finally making that admission!   

Will you now also admit that the polygraph is not a "lie detector" and that it is simply a prop used by interrogators to frighten and intimidate people?

Quote:
You stated you read TLBTLDT, but did you understand and properly employ any cm's to protect yourself?

« Last Edit: Jun 28th, 2013 at 3:49pm by Doug Williams »  

I have been fighting the thugs and charlatans in the polygraph industry for forty years.  I tell about my crusade against the insidious Orwellian polygraph industry in my book FALSE CONFESSIONS - THE TRUE STORY OF DOUG WILLIAMS' CRUSADE AGAINST THE ORWELLIAN POLYGRAPH INDUSTRY.  Please visit my website POLYGRAPH.COM and follow me on TWITTER @DougWilliams_PG


Doug Williams
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box pailryder
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 441
Joined: Jun 5th, 2006
Re: Failed Polygraph but Appealing. Any Advice?
Reply #4 - Jun 28th, 2013 at 9:26pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Doug

Just so your clear, when the sentence ends in a "?", its a question, not an admission.

  

No good social purpose can be served by inventing ways of beating the lie detector or deceiving polygraphers.   David Thoreson Lykken
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Doug Williams
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 284
Joined: Feb 15th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: Failed Polygraph but Appealing. Any Advice?
Reply #5 - Jun 28th, 2013 at 10:00pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  

Just so YOU'RE clear, you said "did you understand and properly employ any cm's to protect yourself?"  Protect himself from what? Being falsely accused of lying? If not, then what was he trying to protect himself from by using cm's?   

Doug Williams wrote on Jun 28th, 2013 at 1:56pm:
Pailryder:  It is breaking news for a polygraph operator to finally admit that a person must use "cm's" to protect themselves from being falsely branded as a liar!  CONGRATULATIONS on finally making that admission!  

Will you now also admit that the polygraph is not a "lie detector" and that it is simply a prop used by interrogators to frighten and intimidate people?

Quote:
You stated you read TLBTLDT, but did you understand and properly employ any cm's to protect yourself?


  

I have been fighting the thugs and charlatans in the polygraph industry for forty years.  I tell about my crusade against the insidious Orwellian polygraph industry in my book FALSE CONFESSIONS - THE TRUE STORY OF DOUG WILLIAMS' CRUSADE AGAINST THE ORWELLIAN POLYGRAPH INDUSTRY.  Please visit my website POLYGRAPH.COM and follow me on TWITTER @DougWilliams_PG


Doug Williams
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box pailryder
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 441
Joined: Jun 5th, 2006
Re: Failed Polygraph but Appealing. Any Advice?
Reply #6 - Jun 29th, 2013 at 3:02pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Doug

My remark was intended to imply that whatever he read or used did not seem to do him much good. 
  

No good social purpose can be served by inventing ways of beating the lie detector or deceiving polygraphers.   David Thoreson Lykken
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Doug Williams
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 284
Joined: Feb 15th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: Failed Polygraph but Appealing. Any Advice?
Reply #7 - Jun 29th, 2013 at 5:32pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Sorry, my mistake!  I thought you had finally decided to join me and tell the truth about the so-called "lie detector".  Obviously I was wrong.  You were just trolling -  trying to get the poor guy to admit that he had tried to use cm's so you could brag about how they didn't work.  And you wanted to get the sadistic satisfaction that guys like you derive from pointing out that the big bad polygrapher scared the hell out of him and got him to admit something.  


pailryder wrote on Jun 29th, 2013 at 3:02pm:
Doug

My remark was intended to imply that whatever he read or used did not seem to do him much good. 

« Last Edit: Jun 29th, 2013 at 6:09pm by Doug Williams »  

I have been fighting the thugs and charlatans in the polygraph industry for forty years.  I tell about my crusade against the insidious Orwellian polygraph industry in my book FALSE CONFESSIONS - THE TRUE STORY OF DOUG WILLIAMS' CRUSADE AGAINST THE ORWELLIAN POLYGRAPH INDUSTRY.  Please visit my website POLYGRAPH.COM and follow me on TWITTER @DougWilliams_PG


Doug Williams
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box pailryder
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 441
Joined: Jun 5th, 2006
Re: Failed Polygraph but Appealing. Any Advice?
Reply #8 - Jul 1st, 2013 at 10:14pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Doug Williams wrote on Jun 29th, 2013 at 5:32pm:
you wanted to get the sadistic satisfaction that guys like you derive from pointing out that the big bad polygrapher scared the hell out of him and got him to admit something.


The something he omitted, then admitted, is what we call the truth.
  

No good social purpose can be served by inventing ways of beating the lie detector or deceiving polygraphers.   David Thoreson Lykken
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Ex Member
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 710
Joined: Dec 9th, 2012
Re: Failed Polygraph but Appealing. Any Advice?
Reply #9 - Jul 1st, 2013 at 10:41pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
pailryder wrote on Jul 1st, 2013 at 10:14pm:
The something he omitted, then admitted, is what we call the truth. 

How can you be sure what he admitted was the truth?--because he said so?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Doug Williams
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 284
Joined: Feb 15th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: Failed Polygraph but Appealing. Any Advice?
Reply #10 - Jul 1st, 2013 at 11:03pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  

I could frighten and intimidate you to the point that you would tell me anything I wanted to hear - but that wouldn't make what you said the "truth"!

And many of the admissions gleaned during interrogation via polygraph "testing" are not the "truth".


pailryder wrote on Jul 1st, 2013 at 10:14pm:
Doug Williams wrote on Jun 29th, 2013 at 5:32pm:
you wanted to get the sadistic satisfaction that guys like you derive from pointing out that the big bad polygrapher scared the hell out of him and got him to admit something.


The something he omitted, then admitted, is what we call the truth.

  

I have been fighting the thugs and charlatans in the polygraph industry for forty years.  I tell about my crusade against the insidious Orwellian polygraph industry in my book FALSE CONFESSIONS - THE TRUE STORY OF DOUG WILLIAMS' CRUSADE AGAINST THE ORWELLIAN POLYGRAPH INDUSTRY.  Please visit my website POLYGRAPH.COM and follow me on TWITTER @DougWilliams_PG


Doug Williams
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box scubadiver1
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 2
Joined: Jun 28th, 2013
Re: Failed Polygraph but Appealing. Any Advice?
Reply #11 - Jul 2nd, 2013 at 3:27am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
@george - thanks for the only actual advice in this thread.  I have reviewed several cases and that is why I was able to mitigate the other areas.  I have my defense prepared but I was wondering if anyone had luck in a similar situation before, hence why I posted.

@pailryder - My CMs were not effective - if they were I'd have passed and wouldn't be here.  But that has nothing to do with TLBTLDT, it's me.  I know someone who is a pathological liar and has done plenty of things that would prevent him from ever getting SCI and he was in and out of the polygraph in an hour.  The whole thing is an interrogation and the polygraph only works because people believe it does.  The polygraph will not prevent the next Snowden.

@doug - I'm not entirely innocent here. I did omit some things at first because I felt they were minor / not what the polygrapher was looking for.  My polygrapher was an idiot and I saw after the fact how badly s/he twisted my words against me.  I've been able to undo a lot of that.  I'm not condoning the use of CMs, but I feel genuinely good people need some sort of defense against this archaic process.   
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box pailryder
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 441
Joined: Jun 5th, 2006
Re: Failed Polygraph but Appealing. Any Advice?
Reply #12 - Jul 2nd, 2013 at 12:24pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Ex Member wrote on Jul 1st, 2013 at 10:41pm:
pailryder wrote on Jul 1st, 2013 at 10:14pm:
The something he omitted, then admitted, is what we call the truth. 

How can you be sure what he admitted was the truth?--because he said so?


The same way you do, we seek information that can be independently verified.
  

No good social purpose can be served by inventing ways of beating the lie detector or deceiving polygraphers.   David Thoreson Lykken
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Doug Williams
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 284
Joined: Feb 15th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: Failed Polygraph but Appealing. Any Advice?
Reply #13 - Jul 2nd, 2013 at 1:44pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
[quote author=3B2B3D2A292C213E2D3A79480 link=1372392221/11#11 date=1372735637
@doug - I'm not condoning the use of CMs, but I feel genuinely good people need some sort of defense against this archaic process.  
[/quote]

Describing my training as teaching "countermeasures" so liars can pass the polygraph "test" is the same thing as describing the polygraph as a "lie detector"!  Both descriptions are PURE, UNADULTERATED BULLSHIT!

Why do polygraph operators tell people not to research the polygraph before they take their test?  It is very simple - the only way they can intimidate people with the polygraph is to keep them ignorant about how it works.  When polygraph operators say I teach people "countermeasures" in order for them to "beat the test".  I simply say, that's bullshit, because polygraph operators routinely call truthful people liars - and my technique is the only way for honest, truthful people to protect themselves from being falsely accused of lying.  Go to the MEDIA page of my website, www.polygraph.com, and watch the CBS 60 MINUTES investigative report I helped to produce and see the proof yourself - three out of three polygraph operators called three different truthful people liars on a crime that never even happened!  You may also enjoy watching me prove THE LIE DETECTOR IS BULLSHIT on Showtime's PENN & TELLER: BULLSHIT!

So, let me emphasize this - I DON'T TEACH SO-CALLED "COUNTERMEASURES" - I simply teach people how to ALWAYS PASS by knowing how to show a perfect "truthful" polygraph chart!  The word "countermeasures" is a word that has been misappropriated by polygraph examiners - it is used to describe what they say is a means to thwart their ability to detect deception.  But polygraph operators have always maintained that they can tell when a person is using these so-called "countermeasures".  If that is true, how can anyone use them "beat" the test? 

Read my complete essay on "countermeasures" here: http://www.polygraph.com/index.php?i-don-t-teach-countermeasures
  

I have been fighting the thugs and charlatans in the polygraph industry for forty years.  I tell about my crusade against the insidious Orwellian polygraph industry in my book FALSE CONFESSIONS - THE TRUE STORY OF DOUG WILLIAMS' CRUSADE AGAINST THE ORWELLIAN POLYGRAPH INDUSTRY.  Please visit my website POLYGRAPH.COM and follow me on TWITTER @DougWilliams_PG


Doug Williams
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box pailryder
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 441
Joined: Jun 5th, 2006
Re: Failed Polygraph but Appealing. Any Advice?
Reply #14 - Jul 2nd, 2013 at 3:11pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
scuba

Were you contacted during your pathological liar friend's B/I?
  

No good social purpose can be served by inventing ways of beating the lie detector or deceiving polygraphers.   David Thoreson Lykken
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Failed Polygraph but Appealing. Any Advice?

Please type the characters that appear in the image. The characters must be typed in the same order, and they are case-sensitive.
Open Preview Preview

You can resize the textbox by dragging the right or bottom border.
Insert Hyperlink Insert FTP Link Insert Image Insert E-mail Insert Media Insert Table Insert Table Row Insert Table Column Insert Horizontal Rule Insert Teletype Insert Code Insert Quote Edited Superscript Subscript Insert List /me - my name Insert Marquee Insert Timestamp No Parse
Bold Italicized Underline Insert Strikethrough Highlight
                       
Change Text Color
Insert Preformatted Text Left Align Centered Right Align
resize_wb
resize_hb







Max 200000 characters. Remaining characters:
Text size: pt
More Smilies
View All Smilies
Collapse additional features Collapse/Expand additional features Smiley Wink Cheesy Grin Angry Sad Shocked Cool Huh Roll Eyes Tongue Embarrassed Lips Sealed Undecided Kiss Cry
Attachments More Attachments Allowed file types: txt doc docx ics psd pdf bmp jpe jpg jpeg gif png swf zip rar tar gz 7z odt ods mp3 mp4 wav avi mov 3gp html maff pgp gpg
Maximum Attachment size: 500000 KB
Attachment 1:
X