Normal Topic Accused of breathing abnormally (Read 16091 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box The Salton Sea
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 5
Joined: Sep 15th, 2011
Accused of breathing abnormally
Nov 22nd, 2011 at 7:16pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
I recently took a pre-emp poly for a metro dept and the examiner stated that my breathing wasn't normal. Can anyone share some insight as to what normal or acceptable breathing looks like? Is it supposed to change over the course of questioning or stay consistent. 

Thanks.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Bill_Brown
Very Senior User
****
Offline



Posts: 227
Joined: Apr 8th, 2011
Re: Accused of breathing abnormally
Reply #1 - Nov 23rd, 2011 at 5:37pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Medical textbooks suggest that normal respiratory rate for adults is only 12 breaths per minute at rest. Older textbooks often provide even smaller values (e.g., 8-10 breaths per minute). Most adults breathe much faster (about 15-20 breaths per minute) than their normal respiratory rate. Respiratory rates in the sick are even higher.


http://www.normalbreathing.com/images/normal-breathing-pattern-time.png
« Last Edit: Nov 23rd, 2011 at 8:02pm by Bill_Brown »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box The Salton Sea
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 5
Joined: Sep 15th, 2011
Re: Accused of breathing abnormally
Reply #2 - Dec 3rd, 2011 at 3:40am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Mr. Brown,


  Thanks for replying. I'm not attempting to beat the box and am confident that I can pass straight forward, but when im retested it may be with the same examiner and it may be difficult to breath involuntarily with having such a focus of the last examination being on my breathing. I'm going to breath as naturally as possible and hope for the best. Thanks for your input.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box stefano
Ex Member


Re: Accused of breathing abnormally
Reply #3 - Dec 8th, 2011 at 3:26am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
The Salton Sea wrote on Dec 3rd, 2011 at 3:40am:
it may be difficult to breath involuntarily with having such a focus of the last examination being on my breathing.

Bill, let's be real here. Why would a polygraphist share such a thing with an examinee? IMHO it is a ploy. Polygraphists have become so paranoid about countermeasures, they are even hallucinating them. I believe this bit about "abnormal breathing" was simply tossed at him so as to watch his reaction in a desperate attempt to confirm a suspicion of breathing countermeasures.
« Last Edit: Dec 8th, 2011 at 7:12am by »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box stefano
Ex Member


Re: Accused of breathing abnormally
Reply #4 - Dec 8th, 2011 at 3:31am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
The Salton Sea wrote on Dec 3rd, 2011 at 3:40am:
I'm going to breath as naturally as possible and hope for the best. 

I would not even worry about your breathing. If he makes any comments about your breathing being "abnormal", just say: "I have no explanation for that." From my experience, if mental countermeasures are properly applied, the breathing and GSR follow accordingly.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Bill_Brown
Very Senior User
****
Offline



Posts: 227
Joined: Apr 8th, 2011
Re: Accused of breathing abnormally
Reply #5 - Dec 9th, 2011 at 6:23pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Stefano, 

We are learning that the breathing patterns displayed are the least accurate portion of the data collected.  Many examiners do look at them in an attempt to detect countermeasures, I personally will look at the breathing and look for some of the "markers" of countermeasures.   

As you state, mental countermeasures are the most difficult to detect.  My experiments using mental countermeasures have demonstrated an inability to detect them in most cases.  The saving grace is observing reactions to relevant questions while also observing them on control questions.  We can then switch to a R&I with successive hurdles.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box figs
User
**
Offline



Posts: 32
Joined: Jan 20th, 2011
Re: Accused of breathing abnormally
Reply #6 - Dec 9th, 2011 at 10:29pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Bill_Brown wrote on Dec 9th, 2011 at 6:23pm:
Stefano, 
Many examiners do look at them in an attempt to detect countermeasures, I personally will look at the breathing and look for some of the "markers" of countermeasures.  


The only publishd CM "markers" are when a respons looks too consistant across repeated uses of teh same question. 

As long as pple vary there CMs a bit, you hav no way 2 detect. All you can do is make acusations and occasionaly get a confession.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Bill_Brown
Very Senior User
****
Offline



Posts: 227
Joined: Apr 8th, 2011
Re: Accused of breathing abnormally
Reply #7 - Dec 10th, 2011 at 5:37am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
figs, 

You are behind on published countermeasure markers.  We do have published makers that are not available on the internet and will not be divulged to members of the general public.  A lot of research has been done that I am sure you are not aware of.   

I also gave a personal opinion, and it is not in keeping with some of the opinions of some of my colleagues.  Many are changing to the R&I Technique with successive hurdles approach.  Others are using the DLC, many are staying with the standardized old techniques. 

Mental countermeasures are not detectable because i cannot read your mind.  Can you prevent a reaction occurring when you are not truthful to a relevant question?  If so what CM do you use to stop a reaction?   

This is not meant to be insulting or demeaning, only honest discussion.   
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6230
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: Accused of breathing abnormally
Reply #8 - Dec 10th, 2011 at 7:47am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Bill_Brown wrote on Dec 10th, 2011 at 5:37am:
Mental countermeasures are not detectable because i cannot read your mind.


True. And bear in mind that by the same token, you cannot detect deception with the polygraph, because neither you nor the polygraph can read minds.
  

George W. Maschke
I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time.
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box figs
User
**
Offline



Posts: 32
Joined: Jan 20th, 2011
Re: Accused of breathing abnormally
Reply #9 - Dec 10th, 2011 at 4:37pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Bill_Brown wrote on Dec 10th, 2011 at 5:37am:
You are behind on published countermeasure markers.  We do have published makers that are not available on the internet and will not be divulged to members of the general public.  A lot of research has been done that I am sure you are not aware of.


Your saying u have secret research proving what u want it 2 prove. Im sure you want people 2 think that. 

I have secret research proving Im Elvis. Keys 2 Graceland, pls.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Bill_Brown
Very Senior User
****
Offline



Posts: 227
Joined: Apr 8th, 2011
Re: Accused of breathing abnormally
Reply #10 - Dec 11th, 2011 at 12:37am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
figs, 

You are 100% correct and I'm sure persons can always pass their polygraph examinations using countermeasures.  I resign and afford you the pleasure of victory.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box stefano
Ex Member


Re: Accused of breathing abnormally
Reply #11 - Dec 11th, 2011 at 2:15am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Bill_Brown wrote on Dec 11th, 2011 at 12:37am:
I resign and afford you the pleasure of victory. 

Watch out figs! It's the old Cassius Clay rope-a-dope.
Cool
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Accused of breathing abnormally

Please type the characters that appear in the image. The characters must be typed in the same order, and they are case-sensitive.
Open Preview Preview

You can resize the textbox by dragging the right or bottom border.
Insert Hyperlink Insert FTP Link Insert Image Insert E-mail Insert Media Insert Table Insert Table Row Insert Table Column Insert Horizontal Rule Insert Teletype Insert Code Insert Quote Edited Superscript Subscript Insert List /me - my name Insert Marquee Insert Timestamp No Parse
Bold Italicized Underline Insert Strikethrough Highlight
                       
Change Text Color
Insert Preformatted Text Left Align Centered Right Align
resize_wb
resize_hb







Max 200000 characters. Remaining characters:
Text size: pt
More Smilies
View All Smilies
Collapse additional features Collapse/Expand additional features Smiley Wink Cheesy Grin Angry Sad Shocked Cool Huh Roll Eyes Tongue Embarrassed Lips Sealed Undecided Kiss Cry
Attachments More Attachments Allowed file types: txt doc docx ics psd pdf bmp jpe jpg jpeg gif png swf zip rar tar gz 7z odt ods mp3 mp4 wav avi mov 3gp html maff pgp gpg
Maximum Attachment size: 500000 KB
Attachment 1:
X