Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) I got BUSTED trying to use CMs!!! (Read 40377 times)
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I got BUSTED trying to use CMs!!!
Jun 24th, 2011 at 10:36pm
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I took a poly for a big secret government agency.  After spending so much time on this site, I was scared that I would be given a "false positive".  So I decided to employ the breathing technique countermeasure, by holding by breath ever so slightly during the certain questions.  Of course, I was interrogated and at the end of the session the polygrapher told me that he knew that I was "holding my breath just like they tell me to do on the internet" - were his exact words.  I was caught, busted, and my heart sank.  Of course, to save face, I denied using countermeasures just so that my denial would be on record.  But in my heart and mind I knew that I was caught.  Those pneumatic tubes they put on your chest are very sensitive and I'm sure the polygrapher could see every breath-hold that I did.  My dream job floated away after that polygraph.  I would advise everyone, if you must use a CM, use mental CMs.  Nothing can read your mind.  But your breathing, tongue bitting, ass squeezing, and other physical activity can be read.  With the sensors they put on you, including the seat sensor that can detect butt squeezing and farts, the mirrors, the high resolution cameras in the room, and the fact that your polygrapher is sitting right next to you to watch your movements, don't even try to change your physical activity if you can.  I tried to use the CMs that I used on Antipolygraph.org and I was busted.  I'm so ashamed and have to carry this for life.   
Cry
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box stefano
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Re: I got BUSTED trying to use CMs!!!
Reply #1 - Jun 24th, 2011 at 11:32pm
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hmmmmm. forgive me, but this story doesn't sound genuine to me. You spent so much time on this site and all you could do is hold your breath on certain questions?

"I tried to use the CMs that I used on Antipolygraph.org and I was busted.  I'm so ashamed and have to carry this for life."

And this sounds to me like a polygraphist speaking. I could be wrong, but it sounds quite fishy to me.
  
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Re: I got BUSTED trying to use CMs!!!
Reply #2 - Jun 25th, 2011 at 1:26am
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I'm not a polygrapher.  This is a true story.  Trust me, the polygraph machine from Layfette Instruments that is used is VERY sensitive.  Those tubes can tell when  you don't breath even for a split second.  And the fact that the polygraher is staring at you, don't even think about tongue biting or nothing stupid.  There is a sensor on the seat, so don't try the anal contraction.  I was busted.  I thought they were just accusing me of CMs as standard procedure but in the end I was rejected and got a statement saying that was why.  They knew.  I denied it.  But they knew.
  
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Re: I got BUSTED trying to use CMs!!!
Reply #3 - Jun 25th, 2011 at 2:10am
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Trust me, the polygraph machine from Layfette Instruments that is used is VERY sensitive.Those tubes can tell whenyou don't breath even for a split second. 

I will give you the benefit of the doubt. If your story is indeed genuine, then you were simply unprepared. It has nothing to do with instrument sensitivity. NO POLYGRAPH EXAMINER can detect properly executed countermeasures.
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: I got BUSTED trying to use CMs!!!
Reply #4 - Jun 25th, 2011 at 5:47am
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busted,

Which agency polygraphed you? What questions were you asked? On which ones did you hold your breath?
  

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Re: I got BUSTED trying to use CMs!!!
Reply #5 - Jun 25th, 2011 at 12:42pm
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stefano

If one defines a properly executed cm as one that is not detected, you are of course correct.  Just like a properly excuted bluff in poker is defined as a bluff that is successful.  This post points out the risk of detection for less than perfect execution.
  

No good social purpose can be served by inventing ways of beating the lie detector or deceiving polygraphers.   David Thoreson Lykken
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Re: I got BUSTED trying to use CMs!!!
Reply #6 - Jun 25th, 2011 at 2:21pm
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Stefano, 

You are using the same tactic you accuse polygraph examiners of using.  If the CM did not work, you used them incorrectly.  (If you passed while using CM the examiner was not properly trained.)  Why not just admit CM's are detectable unless you have had EXTENSIVE training in their usage.
  
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Re: I got BUSTED trying to use CMs!!!
Reply #7 - Jun 25th, 2011 at 4:43pm
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I'm pretty sure the polygraphers can detect CMs, afterall, they caught me!  If you guys are expecting the polygraphers to come out with some big announcements saying "We can detect all polygraph CMs, and here is how we do it...", that is not going to happen.  They probably assume that once they tell us how they can detect CMs, that us anti-poly people will just come up with a new CM method.  I bet the polygraphers practice the CMs on each other and have been doing it for years.  I'm sure it is easy to measure someone's breathing rate, tell if someone is biting their tongue, or anything else.  Mental countermeasures are probably your best bet because nobody and no machine can tell what you are thinking....yet...
  
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Re: I got BUSTED trying to use CMs!!!
Reply #8 - Jun 25th, 2011 at 6:10pm
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busted

Nearly all polygraphers well tell you they can detect mental manitulations during the test. They can't. They are only guessing and try get you to cop a plea. The problem is that their guessing is accepted without having to produce any factual, hard evidence. They are the only and final word.
  
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Re: I got BUSTED trying to use CMs!!!
Reply #9 - Jun 25th, 2011 at 8:16pm
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Bill_Brown wrote on Jun 25th, 2011 at 2:21pm:
Stefano, 

You are using the same tactic you accuse polygraph examiners of using.  If the CM did not work, you used them incorrectly.  (If you passed while using CM the examiner was not properly trained.)  Why not just admit CM's are detectable unless you have had EXTENSIVE training in their usage. 


How about because the countermeasures as presented in The Lie Behind The Lie Detector ARE NOT detectable? I've read the book twice and employed the countermeasures (successfully) numerous times.

Why not just admit polygraphs don't work, have no scientific basis, and shouldn't be used at all?
  
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Re: I got BUSTED trying to use CMs!!!
Reply #10 - Jun 25th, 2011 at 8:42pm
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Knightshaiid wrote on Jun 25th, 2011 at 8:16pm:
Why not just admit polygraphs don't work, have no scientific basis, and shouldn't be used at all? 



Because that would not be true.  They work, have a scientific basis and should be used.  I am not aware of your use of CM's and cannot dispute anything you may have encountered, nor can I attest to your claim.  

I have been able to detect physical countermeasures on numerous occasions, they are evident when used.  I cannot comment on all uses of mental CM's, I am sure they have been used successfully by some.  Experiments I have conducted (non scientific) with mental CM's demonstrated to me that they are difficult to detect and impossible to prove.
  
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Reply #11 - Jun 26th, 2011 at 7:23pm
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Bill_Brown wrote on Jun 25th, 2011 at 8:42pm:
Because that would not be true.  They work, have a scientific basis and should be used.  I am not aware of your use of CM's and cannot dispute anything you may have encountered, nor can I attest to your claim.


Thus far, every study conducted which finds that polygraphs 'work' has been refuted by the National Academy for Science. Every NAS-backed study on polygraphs has found their accuracy to be little better than chance.

My "use of countermeasures" comes right from the free, readily available volume on this site called "The Lie Behind The Lie Detector." Home page, right side, one click.

What amazes and infuriates me most about "polygraph examiners" like yourself is your blatant REFUSAL to see the truth: you've obviously not read TLBTLD. If you had, if you pried your mind open far enough to see a PORTION of the truth, your confidence in this ridiculous 'test' would shatter.

It's the reason people like me can't walk into a polygraph "exam" and say, "I've done my homework. I know how these tests are supposed to work, and I'm not a good candidate." People like your are so convinced of their validity nothing will change your mind.

And that isn't science, it's cultism; it's religion, and it's championed ignorance. And it has absolutely NO PLACE in law enforcement.
  
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Re: I got BUSTED trying to use CMs!!!
Reply #12 - Jun 26th, 2011 at 7:28pm
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Those tubes can tell when  you don't breath even for a split second.  And the fact that the polygraher is staring at you, don't even think about tongue biting or nothing stupid.  There is a sensor on the seat, so don't try the anal contraction.  I was busted.  I thought they were just accusing me of CMs as standard procedure but in the end I was rejected and got a statement saying that was why.  They knew.  I denied it.  But they knew.


TLBTLD does not recommend anal contraction as a countermeasure. In fact, given the non field-tested sensor on the seat it advises against it.

They did not 'know' you were using countermeasures; your polygrapher took a stab in the dark, rattled you and you folded.

On my first polygraph which I successfully passed using countermeasures the polygrapher used one of the counter-CM tests, so it was obvious he suspected something. I kept my cool, finished the test and 'passed.'
He didn't 'know' anything though I'm sure he had his suspicions.
  
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Re: I got BUSTED trying to use CMs!!!
Reply #13 - Jun 26th, 2011 at 8:22pm
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Knightshaiid, 

May I correct  you.  The NAS report was not a study it was a report based on selected studies.  I have read and do read TLBTLD and have studied it.  It is an excellent work by Mr. Maschke and I applaud him for his hard work.  Physical CM's are easily detected and we are working on the Mental CM's, so far it is difficult to detect them and almost impossible to prove they were used. 

Polygraph has advanced since the NAS report.  Our current "accuracy" is 86% in screening applications and much higher on specific examinations.  When we do a breakdown on a screening exam our "accuracy" increases. 

Polygraph has been admitted as evidence in courts on many occasions over the last two years.  The courts have accepted it as a "science" in many jurisdictions.  I have personally testified in several cases.  

There are persons that employ CM's and are undetected, I cannot give you an accurate % on how many, they don't tell me after an examination.  Do they work?  If you are skilled they do work some of the time.  If they are detected you are DQ'd and not allowed another opportunity in my jurisdiction.  

Mr. Maschke does ask you to make an informed decision before deciding to use CM's.  He does not condone being dishonest, he does try to help individuals pass polygraph examinations when being honest.  

« Last Edit: Jun 27th, 2011 at 3:56am by Bill_Brown »  
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Re: I got BUSTED trying to use CMs!!!
Reply #14 - Jun 26th, 2011 at 11:30pm
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I'm pretty sure the polygraphers can detect CMs, afterall, they caught me! 

Busted, are you going to answer George's questions?
  
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I got BUSTED trying to use CMs!!!

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