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Home Polygraph Machines
Mar 23rd, 2011 at 9:58pm
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I heard about the "USB Polygraph" and thought that for the price it was going for that it would be something good to practice with. Does anyone know how well that performs? If its even worth getting to practice with?
  

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Re: Home Polygraph Machines
Reply #1 - Mar 27th, 2011 at 6:01pm
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There's an even better system that's free; it's called the anal spinchter procedure;  just insert a finger up your ass and squeeze as you lie to yourself about something.
  
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Practice is not necessary
Reply #2 - Mar 28th, 2011 at 3:53am
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If you really want to practice taking the polygraph, just get a metal colander and wire it to a copy machine (or a toaster for that matter). The main lesson you need to take from that is that the polygraph machine does not work. The science behind it is total junk science. It is meant to psych you out and intimidate you into spilling your guts. Don't listen to "quickfix." He is just an hate filled polygraph examiner who is resentful that his witchcraft is being exposed as fraud.

I don't blame you for being nervous. Before I started doing research I had the blind faith in the polygraph that we all have for "scientific" procedures. I trusted it as much as I trust x-rays or EEG machines or electronic scales. But the polygraph only pretends to be scientific. All the little straps and attachments seem so scientific, but there is no way to reliably tell if someone is telling the truth or a lie. An x-ray machine does reliably tell you what bones look like. A scale does tell you what you weigh, but a polygraph machine only tells you how fast your are breathing and if you are excited about something. Those results are then interpreted by the polygraph examiner, who then makes a judgement call. Judgement calls are not scientific, and you can easily throw off the results of the exam by employing countermeasures.

There are certain ways you can act that make you look guilty. If you go into your polygraph exam full of excuses like saying that you have a nervous condition or act all freaked out then you look guilty. You have control over how you act and what you say. You need to go in there with a businesslike attitude and tell the examiner that you are confident that the test will give an accurate result. There are a bunch of pointers for how not to act guilty in, "The Lie Behind the Lie Detector," (The free PDF book available on antipoligraph.org).

Also make sure you prepare your breathing pattern and augmented responses to use. That was how I passed a recent poly. It is all written in the book.

You have no use for a polygraph machine.
  

Chuckles
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Re: Home Polygraph Machines
Reply #3 - Mar 28th, 2011 at 10:54am
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chuckles

The polygraph machine works just fine.  It records exactly what it is designed to record.  The computer scoring systems work pretty good too.  Google OSS 3 and tell me if that meets your definition of science.
The polygraph techniques are what you disbelieve and disagree with, not the machine.  Examiners, and I know many more of them than you do, are just regular guys and are not frauds or hate filled or inclined to witchcraft.
  

No good social purpose can be served by inventing ways of beating the lie detector or deceiving polygraphers.   David Thoreson Lykken
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Re: Home Polygraph Machines
Reply #4 - Mar 28th, 2011 at 12:22pm
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Good morning Pailryder,

Firstly, please allow me to apologize. I did not mean to imply that all polygraph examiners are hate filled. I have only met one hateful polygraph examiner in person, but I have met many others who are friendly and polite with a professional demeanor, and even the one rude one might only have truly thought I was a big liar and a child molester (this was in a post conviction test). The truth is that i have never molested children, but i was super afraid of the polygraph test, especially after wrongfully failing it once before. I was so nervous I was shaking and so full of dread, thinking that I was screwed. I displayed many of the typical liar behaviors that are identified in the polygraph examiner's handbook, plus I insisted that I don't believe in the process and got a bum deal from my last polygraph exam. Maybe I did have a physiological response to the questions that asked if I had been having sexual thoughts about children or hanging around with them unchaperoned, but I knew that what he was insinuating was a very bad thing and I was offended and angry that someone would try to pin those behaviors on me when I have been so good and tried so hard to comply with every aspect of the sex offender's program. I know you think that OSS 3 looks scientific, but I think you are confusing technologically complicated with scientific.

The fact is I have been declared a liar twice due to polygraph tests, but I have never lied during a polygraph test. The way something gets to be called science is that someone makes a hypothesis and then tests that hypothesis. If after many experiments the hypothesis holds up, then it becomes a respected theory. A theory gets stronger and people are more confident the more experiments that are done testing it, but it only takes one experiment to disprove a theory. If a theory is ever disproved, then it no longer gets to be considered scientifically true. That's how science works.

Even if you don't believe my claims of being falsely branded a liar due to polygraph exams (and the hundreds of other people including the guy that started the antipolygraph.org website), then you can just think about that challenge that they organization put up to the polygraph examiners of the world. They offered to have a scientific experiment to see if polygraph examiners could tell if people were using countermeasures, but no one has taken them up on it. If it were really a scientific test they wouldn't be afraid to test their theory that it detects lies reliably. An untested scientific belief can not be called a theory. It is just an opinion.

You may know many good decent polygraph examiners, but I bet I have more friends who have taken polygraph tests. I have several good friends who are in prison today because they were unable to pass a polygraph exam during a sex offender program. They were in compliance with all aspects of the program and doing what they were told, but they failed the polygraph and got locked up. How do I know they were telling the truth? Because they are my friends and I know, but I can't prove it. It's just an uncomfortable fact of life that you can not prove if someone is lying or telling the truth. You may have a strong feeling, but you can never know.

I agree that the polygraph works as an interrogation tool. If the victim believes that the machine is going to be able to detect his lies, then he is going to want to get everything off his chest. I personally made a long list, admitting to totally insignificant stuff like showering at the YMCA and mowing my yard with my shirt off, trying to rid myself of every tiny possibility that I could have been had sexual motivations. It kind of screwed me over, because I truly was not sexually motivated to do those things, but they included in my record (which could be used in court against me) of my admissions of sexually acting out dozens of times, when my actual crime was a one time thing that I never did before or since. Thanks to my fear of the polygraph I admitted irrelevant stuff that hurts me to this day, but I still failed it twice.

I have no problem with witchcraft and I bet I know more practicing Wiccans than you do. They all know that the key to making magic work is believing in it. If you believe that the polygraph works, then you spill your guts and tell the truth. In that regard the procedure works, but telling the truth is not guarantee of passing the test. If you go into a polygraph exam intending to trust in the ability of the polygraph examiner to tell if you are telling the truth, you are really a chump. I was a chump - it doesn't feel very good.

The answer, both for liars who want to get away with it and for truthful people who want to make sure they don't get a false result from the exam is the same. You read "The Lie Behind the Lie Detector" and learn how to augment your responses to control questions, control your breathing and have the right appearance and attitude. For me personally, when I went to my polygraph after reading the book and preparing, i felt so confident for a change. Finally I did not feel like a powerless victim. The polygraph lost it's mystery to me and I wasn't afraid of it anymore, and I passed with flying colors.

To Kol: Sorry, I didn't recognize you at first. I think your little picture thing changed. If you are still doing research and trying to buy a polygraph machine that means you are still nervous. Relax buddy and focus on preparing for the test by reading the "Lie Behind the Lie Detector." Meditate once a day, learning to count your breaths and choose a happy, soothing thought that you will use during your test (I used petting my dog), and practice having that thought while controlling your breaths. When you get into the test and he asks you a relevant question, you will just continue breathing the pattern and mentally petting your dog and your body will not give a physiological response. Also you augment your responses to the control questions, and that makes them look bigger than the relevant questions. It's not hard if you study up and get prepared.

Stay cool guys,
Chuck

PS By the way Pailryder, Quickfix is admittedly a polygraph examiner and if you read his history you will see that he is very hate filled. He hates the people who don't believe in the polygraph so much that he wants their children to be raped. He is the specific person I was describing when I said hateful, not all polygraph examiners.
  

Chuckles
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Re: Home Polygraph Machines
Reply #5 - Mar 29th, 2011 at 1:02am
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Pailryder, I don't think he is referring to OSS 3, but rather that cheapo party unit that's being marketed.
  
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Re: Home Polygraph Machines
Reply #6 - Mar 29th, 2011 at 1:06am
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pailryder wrote on Mar 28th, 2011 at 10:54am:
Examiners, and I know many more of them than you do, are just regular guys and are not frauds or hate filled or inclined to witchcraft. 

I agree with you that most are not hate-filled. They are just "regular guys" who see admissions as trophies and will deceive in order to to elicit such.
  
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Re: Home Polygraph Machines
Reply #7 - Mar 29th, 2011 at 2:29am
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quickfix wrote on Mar 27th, 2011 at 6:01pm:
There's an even better system that's free; it's called the anal spinchter procedure;  just insert a finger up your ass and squeeze as you lie to yourself about something.

You are real class act; a paragon among your peers.
  
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Re: Home Polygraph Machines
Reply #8 - Mar 29th, 2011 at 11:32am
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stefano

Lying to a lying suspect in order to obtain a confession is accepted practice for all LEA investigators, not just polygraphers, and has been approved by courts at all levels.  I think the theory is that a liar is not entitled to be told the truth.  I agree there are agencies where confessions are viewed as trophies, but confessions are also  important in establishing ground truth for evaluating polygraph accuracy and utility.

I agree with your evaluation of quickfix.
  

No good social purpose can be served by inventing ways of beating the lie detector or deceiving polygraphers.   David Thoreson Lykken
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Re: Home Polygraph Machines
Reply #9 - Mar 29th, 2011 at 11:51am
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chuck

A thoughtful and very well composed post.  Your advice, to be preparded, is correct and useful to all, but be aware that there is a risk of detection in agumenting response.  I am glad that you did not need to lie and that your examiner finally called it right.

Good luck
  

No good social purpose can be served by inventing ways of beating the lie detector or deceiving polygraphers.   David Thoreson Lykken
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Re: Home Polygraph Machines
Reply #10 - Mar 29th, 2011 at 7:19pm
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pailryder wrote on Mar 29th, 2011 at 11:32am:
stefano

Lying to a lying suspect in order to obtain a confession is accepted practice for all LEA investigators, not just polygraphers, and has been approved by courts at all levels.  I think the theory is that a liar is not entitled to be told the truth.  I agree there are agencies where confessions are viewed as trophies, but confessions are also  important in establishing ground truth for evaluating polygraph accuracy and utility.

We are on the same page, just different margins. I see there is an ethics issue here; just how unethical does someone wish to become in order to catch the bad guys. That's a personal call. Also, I admire your attitude---it's not easy to keep a cool head when one's profession is under attack. Thanks for your input.
  
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Re: Home Polygraph Machines
Reply #11 - Mar 29th, 2011 at 9:54pm
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thanks Chuckles;  for a convicted sex offender you are so insightful;  how proud you must be to have "beaten" your mandatory polygraph exams;  now you can keep on molesting chidren;  isn't that wonderful;  just like you wrote previously, that you "try to be truthful" about your child molesting, and you "try" to comply with not molesting children.  Yeah, you pegged me correctly;  hateful (hateful of child molesters);  hopefully you will be violated back to prison soon so you yourself can be molested in the same manner you have molested children.  As I said before, George must be so proud of the advice he gives to convicted sex offenders, then rationalizes it away by claiming his advice is intended for those who want to pass preemployment polygraph exams, not for shitbags like you.
  
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Re: Home Polygraph Machines
Reply #12 - Mar 29th, 2011 at 9:57pm
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quickfix wrote on Mar 29th, 2011 at 9:54pm:
thanks Chuckles;  for a convicted sex offender you are so insightful;  how proud you must be to have "beaten" your mandatory polygraph exams;  now you can keep on molesting chidren;  isn't that wonderful;  just like you wrote previously, that you "try to be truthful" about your child molesting, and you "try" to comply with not molesting children.  Yeah, you pegged me correctly;  hateful (hateful of child molesters);  hopefully you will be violated back to prison soon so you yourself can be molested in the same manner you have molested children.  As I said before, George must be so proud of the advice he gives to convicted sex offenders, then rationalizes it away by claiming his advice is intended for those who want to pass preemployment polygraph exams, not for shitbags like you.

Why don't you have similar hate for people who get drunk and kill kids in car wrecks? I really think you have some unresolved issues. It would be interesting to have a look inside your closet.
  
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Re: Home Polygraph Machines
Reply #13 - Mar 30th, 2011 at 12:04pm
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stefano

Suspose a murder suspect asks if his prints were found at the crime scene?  Are you saying it is unethical for an investigator to bluff and answer yes?
  

No good social purpose can be served by inventing ways of beating the lie detector or deceiving polygraphers.   David Thoreson Lykken
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Re: Home Polygraph Machines
Reply #14 - Mar 30th, 2011 at 5:06pm
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pailryder wrote on Mar 30th, 2011 at 12:04pm:
stefano

Suspose a murder suspect asks if his prints were found at the crime scene?  Are you saying it is unethical for an investigator to bluff and answer yes?   

I like how you change "lie" to "bluff." I think it's unethical to lie and deceive while working in any official capacity. Previously, you used the phrase: "liars don't deserve to be told the truth." In all fairness, it goes both ways. How much of a bad guy do you want to become in order to catch other bad guys?
  
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