Hot Topic (More than 15 Replies) Can FBI polygraph failure ruin your career in law enforcement? (Read 31256 times)
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Can FBI polygraph failure ruin your career in law enforcement?
Apr 17th, 2009 at 5:42am
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Not sure if this is the place to ask this question... I am new to this website and forum, hopefully someone will answer me....here it goes....... 
If I end up taking the fbi polygraph and for some reason I fail it, will the fbi record show and will in mess up my chances to get hired with police like NYPD or even with customs and borders??
I dont want to take the poly. and have it be an all or nothing with my career in law enforcement. Hopefully someone can help.
  
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Re: Can FBI polygraph failure ruin your career in law enforcement?
Reply #1 - Apr 17th, 2009 at 2:50pm
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Failing an FBI polygraph won't necessarily preclude you from a career in law enforcement, but it can make things much more difficult. The FBI routinely shares information about applicants with other federal agencies. Let's suppose, for example, that you fail an FBI pre-employment polygraph and are disqualified for life from FBI employment. (This happens to about half the people who make it as far along in the FBI hiring process as the polygraph.)

Now, when you apply for a job with U.S. Customs and Border Protection, a National Agency Check will reveal that you have an FBI file (it's a permanent record), and that file will be requested and reviewed. It will come to light that you've failed the polygraph. And at that point, it may make getting the job harder. If you're required to take a polygraph for CBP, the fact that you've previously failed a polygraph will also tend to bias the polygraph operator against you.

To the best of my knowledge, the FBI does not generally share information about applicants with non-federal agencies. NYPD, to its credit, does not require applicants to submit to lie detector "testing." You might, however, be asked about any other law enforcement agencies with which you have applied for employment in the past, and if you disclose that you applied for the FBI but were rejected because of the polygraph, that could hurt your chances of being hired.

Because of the particularly severe consequences of failing an FBI polygraph, and the very high failure rate at this agency, my recommendation to all who seek a career in law enforcement is to steer clear of the FBI until such time as it ends its misplaced reliance on the pseudoscience of polygraphy.
  

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Re: Can FBI polygraph failure ruin your career in law enforcement?
Reply #2 - Apr 17th, 2009 at 7:14pm
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Thank you for answering my question.  The polygraph "test" doesn't happen on the first meeting of the FBI does it??  I am taking the test for an fbi officer and it says I have to take the written and video test which is phase 1 and then if I pass that, then I go on to phase 2 on the same day which they say is an interview.  Just wondering once I go down to take the test and everything goes good will they hook me up to the a polygraph the same day or make me come back another day??  I want to be able to think about taking it because I heard of the high fail rate of innocent candidates and I don't want all my dreams shattered over a polygraph test just yet.

Also, just to try to get all my questions out, sorry to take up your time.

During the control questions of a polygraph , lets say they ask "Have you ever told a lie?" and you answer truthfully and say "yes" should you still use countermeasures when answering truthfully to control questions? Or should you lie on purpose and say no I never told a lie and then a use a countermeasure? I understand basically cause I did read the 3rd and 4th chapter but it confuses me about how to answer the control questions and should you use the countermeasures on every control question? I am an openminded and logical person and answering no I never lied to a question would be something I wouldnt normally do.  Or even lie to a loved one or stole... I know that everyone lied to a loved one and stole.. Should I play dumb and say no I never lied to a loved one or stole and use a counter measure?
Maybe you can clear that up...

Hopefully you understand what I am trying to ask and you are able to get back ot me.
  
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Re: Can FBI polygraph failure ruin your career in law enforcement?
Reply #3 - Apr 17th, 2009 at 9:49pm
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During the control questions of a polygraph , lets say they ask "Have you ever told a lie?" and you answer truthfully and say "yes" should you still use countermeasures when answering truthfully to control questions? Or should you lie on purpose and say no I never told a lie and then a use a countermeasure?


The later.  They expect you to answer "no".  If you answer "yes" they will ask you to explain, the rephrase the question "other than what you told me, have you ever....."

Some polygraph operators will get irate if you keep answering "yes" to a control question.  Poor dears.

TC
  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

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Re: Can FBI polygraph failure ruin your career in law enforcement?
Reply #4 - Apr 20th, 2009 at 6:39pm
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ok so you are saying I should answer no I never lied or never stole anything and then use a counter measure while I lie about that? when I use a counter measure during a lie like that my responses will be higher then during my relevent questions..?
  
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Re: Can FBI polygraph failure ruin your career in law enforcement?
Reply #5 - Apr 21st, 2009 at 5:45am
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Quote:
ok so you are saying I should answer no I never lied or never stole anything and then use a counter measure while I lie about that? when I use a counter measure during a lie like that my responses will be higher then during my relevent questions..?


Correct, but you have to be prepared to explain your reaction on the "control".  Just make sure it is not anything they could use to disqualify you.  For example, admitting you stole a pen from work, not something major.  The more they concentrate on you answers to a control questions, versus a relevant, the better.

Read the "lie behind the lie detector" it covers the use of CMs better than I could explain to you on this forum.  Basically, the more you are disturbed and reactive on the control, versus the relevants, the greater you chances of passing.  That and NOT letting them con you into admitting to anything they can distort and twist like their arrogant little minds!

And, as always, realize that a reaction on the machine does NOT mean deception no matter how much the examiner claims it does, but don't let on that you know that.

TC

  

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Re: Can FBI polygraph failure ruin your career in law enforcement?
Reply #6 - May 1st, 2009 at 9:39pm
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T.M. Cullen wrote on Apr 21st, 2009 at 5:45am:
Quote:
ok so you are saying I should answer no I never lied or never stole anything and then use a counter measure while I lie about that? when I use a counter measure during a lie like that my responses will be higher then during my relevent questions..?


Correct, but you have to be prepared to explain your reaction on the "control".  Just make sure it is not anything they could use to disqualify you.  For example, admitting you stole a pen from work, not something major.  The more they concentrate on you answers to a control questions, versus a relevant, the better.

Read the "lie behind the lie detector" it covers the use of CMs better than I could explain to you on this forum.  Basically, the more you are disturbed and reactive on the control, versus the relevants, the greater you chances of passing.  That and NOT letting them con you into admitting to anything they can distort and twist like their arrogant little minds!

And, as always, realize that a reaction on the machine does NOT mean deception no matter how much the examiner claims it does, but don't let on that you know that.

TC



Thank you for your help and responses.. I did read the "lie behind the lie detector" ..well, only chapters 3 and 4, (the chapters suggested).  So I understand what you are saying ...But you are saying lie on the control questions like "did u ever steal anything?"... that would be a NO(which is a lie) so how would I be admitting anything? Do you understand what I am saying? even if I am asked "have you ever lied before?" I suppose to lie and say "No, I never lied before".. there is no explaining if you lie on these questions that i lie on.... but if I tell the truth then i would explain and say something minor..which is probably a bad idea... reading the book and doing research I came to the conclusion that during the control questions i just lie on something minor (which the examiner knows I am lying) and do a countermeasure during that so the examiner see's my reaction to lying which would be greater then my relevant...

just to understand better, what should or what would YOU answer to a question like "have you ever stole before?" or a question like "have you ever lied before?"... are you saying just lie on the minor control questions not on anything serious like lie to someone of authority?(which is prob still a control question)
Sorry its just alittle confusing and you threw me off when u did the example about stealing a pen.......
Hopefully you or anyone can help me out..thanks
  
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Re: Can FBI polygraph failure ruin your career in law enforcement?
Reply #7 - May 2nd, 2009 at 12:52am
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Send a PM to George as he is the expert on cm usage.  He wrote the TLBTLD.

The whole idea is to show a higher "reaction" to the control questions (if any), than to relevant questions.  Relevant questions are pretty easy to ident.  With the FBI, questions might be something like "Have you ever stolen anything with a value over $100?", or "have you ever intentionally divulged classified information to any unauthorized person"...etc.

But you should be prepared to explain reactions to controls.  So, if you answered, "No", you haven't "stolen anything", they may say "well, I may have stolen a pen at school", or some other minor thing.

The most important thing to remember is you are WALKING INTO AN INTERROGATION!  They are NOT your friend, they are NOT there to help you, though they will tell you they are.  They will lie to you and claim the machine can actually detect "deception".  It can't!  They're whole goal is to see what dumb things they can get you to say or admit to.  If you show persistent reaction on a given relevant question, they will ASSume you are lying.  Their goal THEN, will be to get you to say anything at all with which they can distort and turn into a "disqualifying" admission.  Read some of the "personal statements" linked on the home page of this website to see how they can twist, distort, and blow out of proportion insignificant info divulged by an innocent, but naive applicant.

It's easier for them to do this than you think.  The will attempt to wear you out, trick you, try to be your buddy...etc.  They are TRAINED INTERROGATORS!   They will try to frustrate you, and get you to the point where you will say things you otherwise wouldn't just so you can "end this bullshit and get out of here".  

Do a google search on "false confessions"., and "interrogation techniques".  You might start out with this:

http://www.nasams.org/forensics/for_lib/Documents/1104868281.86/Conti%20article%...

Then again, you might show little if any reaction to the relevant questions, and get out through it without too much difficulty (i dunno maybe not with the FBI), and pass.  Don't be belligerent, angry or smart alecky with them though.  

Again, talk to GM.  Using CMs at the wrong time and in the wrong manner can indeed backfire on you.

TC
  
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Re: Can FBI polygraph failure ruin your career in law enforcement?
Reply #8 - May 2nd, 2009 at 2:18am
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T.Cullen wrote on May 2nd, 2009 at 12:52am:
Send a PM to George as he is the expert on cm usage.


Expert on CM usage?  LMAO.   Grin

I agree with this part of Mr. Cullen's post though: "Using CMs at the wrong time and in the wrong manner can indeed backfire on you."

« Last Edit: May 2nd, 2009 at 6:08pm by LieBabyCryBaby »  
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Re: Can FBI polygraph failure ruin your career in law enforcement?
Reply #9 - May 2nd, 2009 at 7:31pm
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Quote:
I agree with this part of Mr. Cullen's post though: "Using CMs at the wrong time and in the wrong manner can indeed backfire on you."


Which is why it is important to learn WHEN and HOW to PROPERLY use them.  As well as becoming familiar with some of the interrogation techniques which might be used against you during the polygraph, should the examiner become "aggressive" or "accusatory".  Should this occur during a police polygraphi, the test should be immediately terminated as Ed Van Arsdale (Sancho Panza) suggests.

TC
  
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Re: Can FBI polygraph failure ruin your career in law enforcement?
Reply #10 - May 2nd, 2009 at 9:39pm
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Actually, I meant to say that there is no good time to attempt countermeasures because they won't help you, and it's not worth the risk.  However, I've read that contracting your anal sphincter is a good exercise to improve sexual performance, so use it if you need it.

The question, as I've posed on this forum before is, Do you feel lucky? If you've really got nothing to hide, studies show that innocent examinees have nothing to gain from attempting countermeasures. There is also great risk. Here's what the NAS has to say about it:

Authors such as Maschke and Williams suggest that effective countermeasure strategies can be easily learned and that a small amount of practice is enough to give examinees an excellent chance of “beating” the polygraph. Because the effective application of mental or physical countermeasures on the part of examinees would require skill in distinguishing between relevant and comparison questions, skill in regulating physiological response, and skill in concealing countermeasures from trained examiners, claims that it is easy to train examinees to “beat” both the polygraph and trained examiners require scientific supporting evidence to be credible. 

However, we are not aware of any such research. There is also evidence that innocent examinees using some countermeasures in an effort to increase the probability that they will “pass” the exam produce physiological reactions that have the opposite effect, either because their countermeasures are detected or because their responses appear more rather than less deceptive. The available evidence does not allow us to determine whether innocent examinees can increase their chances of achieving nondeceptive outcomes by using countermeasures.


  
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Re: Can FBI polygraph failure ruin your career in law enforcement?
Reply #11 - May 4th, 2009 at 2:46pm
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hey cm cullen.. what do you mean by "maybe not the Fbi"..? why is the lie detector diferent with the fbi?

Also, for anyone who wants to answer, including (i forgot ur screename but the person responsing to cm cullen)..... what if you have something minor to hide in the relevant questions that will cause someone not to get a job.... what do you suggest? or some sugesstions on what to do?

Also I understand the guy who wrote the book knows alot and I like what he is doing here to help people, but does he have experience with actually beating a polygraph or is he just mad that he failed one and did research without actually passing one having lied on one??

I would also like to talk to someone who actually beat a polygraph having lied on one..... those people are probably not on this site anymore because they have no need to take a look on here.

Again I dont want to take a polygraph, fail it and then ruin my career in law enforcement..
  
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Re: Can FBI polygraph failure ruin your career in law enforcement?
Reply #12 - May 4th, 2009 at 5:37pm
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Quote:
hey cm cullen.. what do you mean by "maybe not the Fbi"..? why is the lie detector diferent with the fbi?


The FBI polygraphers fail around half of all applicants.  The worse abuse seems to come from them.

Half of all applicants at the FBI are deceptive?  What bullshit!

TC
  
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Re: Can FBI polygraph failure ruin your career in law enforcement?
Reply #13 - May 6th, 2009 at 12:56am
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The FBI will send about 3,000 letters of conditional employment with the expectation that two out of three will not successfully pass the background screening process that starts with the polygraph.  I think that 50% is a conservative number of conditional employees removed from the application process by the polygraph.  For every three that go in, one goes on to the background investigative process.  This in itself does not bother me as much as the the two that do not come out are blacklisted for any other federal career that will involve a polygraph as part of their screening process.  They will never have a chance to challenge their accuser, a man hidden behind a machine.  Pontious Pilate, the examiner, washes his hands clean of the crime saying that the "machine" is responsible, not him.  The rejected applicants will have to state that they took a polygraph for another agency.  The examiner will ask what the outcome was.  This question is moot because if the polygraph examination was successful, the applicant would not be applying for another position.  The examiner will not want to make another examiner look bad for not passing the applicant so they will do a perfunctory examination and find the applicant not acceptable as to keep the charade going.  Such a tangles web we weave.
  
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Re: Can FBI polygraph failure ruin your career in law enforcement?
Reply #14 - May 6th, 2009 at 1:37am
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And there is no way in hell, given the population sample, that 50% of FBI applicants lied or were deceptive.   Though my government polygraph chartist claimed 98% accuracy.  If that is so, I think the FBI needs to be more careful who they invite to their employment screening.

TC
  
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