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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Ed Earl
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Re: Insurance Claims
Reply #45 - Mar 19th, 2009 at 4:22pm
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Sergeant, your comments are misleading.

It would be more accurate to state:
When a person is in custody and the police wish to have a conversation with him concerning the reason he is in custody, the requirement that he must be advised of, and make an informed waiver of, his Miranda rights applies. REGARDLESS of Polygraph. 

The Edwards rule, which extends Miranda, is not offense-specific: What the Supreme court stated was "once a suspect invokes the Miranda right to counsel for interrogation regarding one offense, he may not be re-approached regarding any offense unless counsel is present".   If he simply says, "I don't want to talk about that" they are free to approach him on other crimes until he asks for an attorney.        

REGARDLESS of Polygraph. 

The issue in Edwards had more to do with an accused's Sixth Amendment right to counsel that his Fifth Amendment right to refuse to incriminate himself.  The main argument in Edwards was whether or not his request for the assistance of a public defender at a bail hearing constituted an invocation of his right not to be questioned in the absence of counsel. I think Edward's attorneys stipulated that he was read and waived his Miranda Rights every single time he was interviewed and then argued that they were the product of an unlawful approach because he had asked for an attorney at a bail hearing. The Supreme Court disagreed with his argument and denied relief. In their ruling they clarified that an invocation of right to counsel, requires at a minimum, some statement that can reasonably be construed to be expression of a desire for the assistance of an attorney in dealing with custodial interrogation by the police. To my knowledge, Edwards has neither been reversed nor modified in the interim.

Even though Miranda only applies to CUSTODIAL situations some agencies may have policies in place instructing polygraph examiners to provide Miranda warnings in all polygraph examinations. If they do it is a policy decision not an application of law. 

Your insinuation that the law or the courts have attached some special Miranda obligation to a polygraph examination is incorrect.

Getrealalready I hope you can learn to live with being wrong. 
In regard to your placebo response: Look at the length you had to go to to even approach relevance. But suppose little toads had wings, maybe they wouldn't bump their backsides so much while hopping through the garden

Pailryder, we can discuss that "often" thing at some other time and some other place. I was just pointing out that Cullen was attempting to mischaracterize your statement. Do you agree it would be unethical behavior for any polygraph examiner to conduct an exam if he were already convinced of the examinee's culpability?

I'm really not here to debate their overgeneralizations and cherry picked statistics, but just when I thought I was out... They pull me back in. One of them even became angry when I suggested he might have researched his comments. I won’t make that mistake again. I am not here to impugn anyone's integrity and I am still willing to let that issue lay if they will.

I also believe for an applicant  to consider countermeasures, suggests a willingness to engage in deceptive behavior considered by most as contraindicated in being a law enforcement officer or of occupying any position of trust in our government. Who knows what such a potential employee might fake, lie, or make up, right? I think most reasonable persons would agree to this as well. I also believe that anyone who endorses that behavior is squarely in the wrong.


I am really here to provide an alternative point of view from some of the posters here who try to convince those people they are better off lying and cheating than they are telling the truth. I don't really understand why encouraging people to be honest, honorable and truthful meets with such resistance. I have asked George several times if has a problem with encouraging people to be honest, honorable and truthful.  It seems reasonable, to me,  that this question should be answerable by a simple yes or no.  But that seems to be a threshold he’s not willing to cross.

Pailryder if you agree with those last two paragraphs, you are welcome to join me and AAPACPTALPAUCN. T-shirt sales are sluggish, but membership is growing.
« Last Edit: Mar 19th, 2009 at 4:49pm by Ed Earl »  

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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box T.M. Cullen
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Re: Insurance Claims
Reply #46 - Mar 19th, 2009 at 6:30pm
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Perhaps a better anology would be a physician perscribing a placebo.  In that case, the doctor has lied to the patient, but did the doctor do anything wrong or unethical?


But the physician is motivated by his/her concern for the overall well being of the patient.  The polygraphic interrogator  is not so motivated, though he/she will often attempt to convince the subject that they are ("I want you to get this job, so work with me here and LET ME HELP YOU!")

Can't you see the difference?
  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
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Re: Insurance Claims
Reply #47 - Mar 19th, 2009 at 6:54pm
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Ed Earl wrote on Mar 19th, 2009 at 4:22pm:

I also believe for an applicant  to consider countermeasures, suggests a willingness to engage in deceptive behavior considered by most as contraindicated in being a law enforcement officer or of occupying any position of trust in our government.

If a reliable method were available to detect polygraph countermeasures, employing it would be a wise method for early identification of individuals suitable for the position of polygraph operator within an agency. As you noted, they are willing to engage in deceptive behavior considered by most as contraindicated in being a law enforcement officer or of occupying any position of trust in our government.

Quote:
I have asked George several times if has a problem with encouraging people to be honest, honorable and truthful.  It seems reasonable, to me,  that this question should be answerable by a simple yes or no.  But that seems to be a threshold he’s not willing to cross.


Both George and I have stated numerous times that we feel that one is ethically obligated to be honest, honorable and truthful when answering relevant questions. We have also made it very clear that we feel it is ethical to employ polygraph countermeasures when faced with an unreliable process that is fraught with deception.

Why is it OK for polygraph examiners--people in positions of public trust--to be deceptive toward job applicants, but not appropriate in the other direction?


  
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Re: Insurance Claims
Reply #48 - Mar 19th, 2009 at 7:38pm
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Ed Earl wrote on Mar 19th, 2009 at 4:22pm:
Sergeant, your comments are misleading.


I disagree.  However, I recognize your effort at making them appear so.

I was simply refuting the assertion that some polygraph examiners make that a polygraph exam is not an interrogation.  Since you cannot interrogate any person in custody without advising them of their Miranda rights first, and since Miranda is required prior to polygraphing any suspect in custody, it can be logically inferred that a polygraph exam is an interrogation.  If it was not then Miranda would not be required, and we all know that it is.

Perhaps you would once again benefit from going back and rereading my post.  I believe I was clear and maybe if you gave it another shot you would be able to understand what I was saying.   

Actually, I don't actually believe you found my post misleading.  What I do believe is that you feel obligated to muddy the waters around any post authored by someone who does not believe in the accuracy of the polygraph, which I believe negatively affects your credibility, rather than the original poster's.  I think any reasonable person looking over your posts would come to the same conclusion.
  

Lorsque vous utilisez un argumentum ad hominem, tout le monde sait que vous ętes intellectuellement faillite.
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box T.M. Cullen
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Re: Insurance Claims
Reply #49 - Mar 19th, 2009 at 7:43pm
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Quote:
Why is it OK for polygraph examiners--people in positions of public trust--to be deceptive toward job applicants, but not appropriate in the other direction?


And is a person cowardly enough to FALSELY accuse others of aiding terrorists (under multiple anonymous on-line names) in an effort to protect his paycheck and perpetuate a pop cultural myth, really in any position to question the "ethics" of others?

TC
  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
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Re: Insurance Claims
Reply #50 - Mar 19th, 2009 at 9:10pm
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Ed Earl

Mr Cullen's misstatement of my position was, in my opinion, just an attempt to bait me into a response.  It is generally pointless to reply to Mr Cullen, who is very loose in his use of logic and language.

  

No good social purpose can be served by inventing ways of beating the lie detector or deceiving polygraphers.   David Thoreson Lykken
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Re: Insurance Claims
Reply #51 - Mar 19th, 2009 at 9:18pm
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It is generally pointless to reply to Mr Cullen, who is very loose in his use of logic and language.


Like trying to logically comparing the motivations of a used car salesman to a doctor?

TC
  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

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Re: Insurance Claims
Reply #52 - Mar 19th, 2009 at 10:00pm
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Sergeant, your argument Quote:
 Since you cannot interrogate any person in custody without advising them of their Miranda rights first, and since Miranda is required prior to polygraphing any suspect in custody, it can be logically inferred that a polygraph exam is an interrogation.
 Is simply an attempt to affirm the consequent which is a logical fallacy. 

Gino perhaps if you had a single scrap of peer reviewed published scientific research, just one, that someone can take a copy of your book, apply the  countermeasure by following your instructions and effectively aid themselves in passing a polygraph test in a field setting then perhaps you could contradict the studies by Honts, Amato et al.  that indicate an honest person attempting countermeasures hurts their chances of passing. The NAS took notice of that didn't they?
your question, Quote:
Why is it OK for polygraph examiners--people in positions of public trust--to be deceptive toward job applicants
falsely assumes  that I believe that it is OK for a polygraph examiner to be deceptive towards job applicants. I have answered that question already but here it is again from my previous post Quote:
I do not agree that it is OK for polygraphers to lie even though the courts give them permission to do so under certain circumstances. Polygraph works and the examiner does not have to lie to the examinee to "make it work" In fact it has even worked on psychologists, physiologists, and psychophisiologists; three groups who should be fully aware of any errors or deceptions a polygrapher might attempt regarding what causes reactions.
 

Actually I think there is more scientific research supporting Kinoki footpads and Colon Cleanse than there is for pages 145 through 155 of TLBTLD.

But, I am not here to impugn anyone's integrity and I am still willing to let that issue lay if you will (I mean that collectively, not specifically). Cullen seems to be attempting to bait me with his needling and ad hominum comments. He seems to be getting angry because I am ignoring his masterful baiting. I mean I accidentally accused him of researching his comments and he went ballistic.

I am really here to provide an alternative point of view from some of the posters here who try to convince those people they are better off lying and cheating than they are telling the truth. I don't really understand why encouraging people to be honest, honorable and truthful meets with such resistance. 

I have been assailed from all sides for several days now just because I am prepared to defend the point of view that people are better off being honest, honorable and truthful in their polygraph exams. If they aren't prepared to do that, they shouldn't agree to one and they should not apply for any job that requires one.  I firmly believe for an applicant  to consider countermeasures, suggests a willingness to engage in deceptive behavior considered by most as contraindicated in being a law enforcement officer or of occupying any position of trust in our government. Who knows what such a potential employee might fake, lie, or make up, right? I think most reasonable persons would agree to this as well. I also believe that anyone who endorses that behavior is squarely in the wrong.
  

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Re: Insurance Claims
Reply #53 - Mar 19th, 2009 at 10:32pm
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Gino perhaps if you had a single scrap of peer reviewed published scientific research, just one, that someone can take a copy of your book, apply the  countermeasure by following your instructions and effectively aid themselves in passing a polygraph test in a field setting then perhaps you could contradict the studies by Honts, Amato et al.  that indicate an honest person attempting countermeasures hurts their chances of passing. The NAS took notice of that didn't they?


Mr. Panza, Queeg, Earl, Anonymous two,

There you go purposely misinterpreting what the NAS report said.  They specifically said that CMs will hurt an applicants chances if the applicant DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO USE THEM.  Ah Duh?  Yeah! You could say that about the use of anything!  

So, you are correct, if an applicant puckers his anus "REAL HARD and REAL LONG!" like an anonymous polygrapher from the DODPI once recommended (pretending to be PRO CM) on this board, and do so on a relevant question, or irrelevant Q, then yes, you it will hurt your chances!

TC

P.S.  Note:  Another good example of you being purposely misleading.  You made the same phoney argument months ago as Mr. Panza.  Do you think the argument will become less phoney with age?

  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

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Re: Insurance Claims
Reply #54 - Mar 20th, 2009 at 2:11am
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Ed Earl wrote on Mar 19th, 2009 at 10:00pm:
I have been assailed from all sides for several days now just because I am prepared to defend the point of view that people are better off being honest, honorable and truthful in their polygraph exams. 


I am certain no one is assailing you for that reason.  I have posted for years on this board that people should be honest and answer all the questions truthfully (without witholding any information)during their polygraph exams, and no one has assailed me for doing so.

Once again, your straw man argument simply doesn't hold water.  An attack on "Ed Earl" is not the same as an attack on honesty and truth, no matter how many times you write that it is.
  

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Re: Insurance Claims
Reply #55 - Mar 20th, 2009 at 2:27am
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Cullen, If you plan to use the word “specifically” pertaining  to the content of the NAS report you should also use the actual language contained in the report. The word "specifically" implies an accurate and an explicit account from document you reference. Not that I am accusing you of ever having read it. 

Here is what they specifically  said  pg 140

Quote:
Some examinees who have not committed crimes, security breaches, or related offenses, or who have little to hide, might nevertheless engage in countermeasures with the intent to minimize their chances of false positive test results (Maschke and Scalabrini, no date). This strategy is not risk-free for innocent examinees. There is evidence that some countermeasures used by innocent examinees can in fact increase their chances of appearing deceptive (Dawson, 1980; Honts, Amato, and Gordon, 2001).
(emphasis added)

And page 147 Quote:
Authors such as Maschke and Williams suggest that effective countermeasure strategies can be easily learned and that a small amount of practice is enough to give examinees an excellent chance of “beating” the polygraph. Because the effective application of mental or physical countermeasures on the part of examinees would require skill in distinguishing between relevant and comparison questions, skill in regulating physiological response, and skill in concealing countermeasures from trained examiners, claims that it is easy to train examinees to “beat” both the polygraph and trained examiners require scientific supporting evidence to be credible. However, we are not aware of any such research.
  (emphasis added)

This information was provided for you this time because you apparently don’t like to be accused of, or actually conduct your own research. I suspect though that your post is just another one of your masterful baiting attempts.  But I am not here to impugn anyone's integrity and I am still willing to let that issue lay if you will (I mean that collectively, not specifically). 

In any case, I am here to provide an alternative point of view from some of the posters here who try to convince those people they are better off lying and cheating than they are telling the truth. I don't really understand why encouraging people to be honest, honorable and truthful meets with such resistance. 
  

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Re: Insurance Claims
Reply #56 - Mar 20th, 2009 at 2:27am
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Ed Earl wrote on Mar 19th, 2009 at 10:00pm:

Gino perhaps if you had a single scrap of peer reviewed published scientific research, just one, that someone can take a copy of your book, apply the  countermeasure by following your instructions and effectively aid themselves in passing a polygraph test in a field setting then perhaps you could contradict the studies by Honts, Amato et al.  that indicate an honest person attempting countermeasures hurts their chances of passing.


The Honts, et al study was handicapped by serious methodological shortcomings. Most notably, the complete absence of motivation for study participants to put meaningful effort into the mastery of polygraph countermeasures. Minor rewards like free movie tickets or extra credit in an undergraduate behavioral science course are trivial compared to the motivation that someone has to defeat a real polygraph "test" when consequences are on the line.

Quote:
Polygraph works and the examiner does not have to lie to the examinee to "make it work" In fact it has even worked on psychologists, physiologists, and psychophisiologists; three groups who should be fully aware of any errors or deceptions a polygrapher might attempt regarding what causes reactions.
 

If what you say is correct, why do the seven deceptions outlined by Dr. Richardson persist within polygraphy?

You have assailed his credentials, pretended that these deceptions do not exist, are rarities, etc. Still, you have not in any way meaningfully refuted Dr. Richardson's assertion that polygraphy is fraught with deception.

Let's start with just the first deception he outlined:

Quote:
(1)      A discussion of the autonomic nervous system, its anatomy and physiology, its role in the conduct of a polygraph examination, and the examiner’s background as it supports his pontifications regarding said subjects.  In general, an examiner has no or little educational background that would qualify him to lead such a discussion and his discussion contains the likely error that gross oversimplification often leads to.


Would you disagree with the contention that a vast majority (if not all) polygraph examinations begin with the operator providing (or attempting to provide)  an explanation of the theory behind polygraphy?

It is without dispute that other stimuli besides attempts at deception can produce the physical manifestations of autonomic nervous system activity that are measured by the polygraph instrument.

Do you contend that this information is provided to subjects on a routine basis by polygraph examiners when explaining the "test?" If not, might this intentional omission be considered deception?

Note that more than FBI rejection letter has outlined "withholding information" as a reason for rejection (in addition to not being within acceptable parameters, of course).
  
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Re: Insurance Claims
Reply #57 - Mar 20th, 2009 at 2:58am
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There is evidence that some countermeasures used by innocent examinees can in fact increase their chances of appearing deceptive (Dawson, 1980; Honts, Amato, and Gordon, 2001).


Yes, and if I remember correctly, the study above referred to countermeasures used by people NOT PROPERLY TRAINED in the use of countermeasures.  As I stated in my last post, if you don't know WHEN or HOW to apply countermeasures, you probably will probably do more harm than good.  If you try to clean a gun in an improper manner, you're liable to shot yourself too.


TC

« Last Edit: Mar 20th, 2009 at 3:15am by T.M. Cullen »  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
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Re: Insurance Claims
Reply #58 - Mar 20th, 2009 at 3:29am
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Gino whatever shortcomings you might claim in Honts et al obviously stem from your absolute inabilty to refute their findings with peer reviewed published scientific research, that concludes someone can take a copy of your book, apply the  countermeasure by following your instructions and effectively aid themselves in passing a polygraph test in a field setting because you can't produce any. 

A very intelligent fellow once said something to the effect of [Terms like “Serious methodological shortcomings,” are vacuous hyperbole (the equivalent of a verbal rubber stamp) and have become over-used accusation when one simply wants to discount or discredit a study or findings which one does not like. They are simple-minded cudgels, with which to bash on and reject information which is inconsistent with an apologetic position. When used properly, the term “serious methodological shortcomings,” is a generic description of any set of conditions which would reasonably prevent the formulation of any conclusions.]     Such a study would probably not have passed muster for inclusion by the NAS.

What exactly are your qualifications to assess the quality of psychophisological reasearch? Your book doesn't claim anything more than you attended a couple of meetings in Washington DC. 

I stand by my statement that Polygraph works and the examiner does not have to lie to the examinee to "make it work" In fact it has even worked on psychologists, physiologists, and psychophisiologists; three groups who should be fully aware of any errors or deceptions a polygrapher might attempt regarding what causes reactions. 

I stand by my statement that Drew Richardson lacks a sufficient basis of knowledge to arrive at a reliable conclusion regarding what goes on in every or all polygraph examinations. For you or anyone else to argue otherwise is simply an excercise in over-generalization of small numbers. That is fallacious argument an as such requires no further refutation.  

I have already explained to you that I do not agree that it is OK for polygraphers to lie even though the courts give them permission to do so under certain circumstances. 

I am here to provide an alternative point of view from some of the posters here who try to convince those people they are better off lying and cheating than they are telling the truth.
  

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Re: Insurance Claims
Reply #59 - Mar 20th, 2009 at 4:54am
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Quote:
A very intelligent fellow once said something to the effect of [Terms like “Serious methodological shortcomings,” are vacuous hyperbole (the equivalent of a verbal rubber stamp) and have become over-used accusation when one simply wants to discount or discredit a study or findings which one does not like. They are simple-minded cudgels, with which to bash on and reject information which is inconsistent with an apologetic position. When used properly, the term “serious methodological shortcomings,” is a generic description of any set of conditions which would reasonably prevent the formulation of any conclusions.]     Such a study would probably not have passed muster for inclusion by the NAS.

My generalization was immediately followed by a very specific example regarding the lack of appropriate motivation for the volunteers. There is nothing wrong with providing a generalized introduction when it is supported by specific example(s). It’s actually the hallmark of good writing. 

Quote:
I stand by my statement that Polygraph works and the examiner does not have to lie to the examinee to "make it work" In fact it has even worked on psychologists, physiologists, and psychophisiologists; three groups who should be fully aware of any errors or deceptions a polygrapher might attempt regarding what causes reactions. 
I stand by my statement that Drew Richardson lacks a sufficient basis of knowledge to arrive at a reliable conclusion regarding what goes on in every or all polygraph examinations. For you or anyone else to argue otherwise is simply an excercise in over-generalization of small numbers. That is fallacious argument an as such requires no further refutation.  


Once again, if the seven deceptions that Dr. Richardson listed are not central to the efficacy of polygraphy, why are they so widely practiced?

Your assertion that what Dr. Richardson observed and commented on stemmed from isolated deviations is laughable.

The deceptions referred to by Dr. Richardson can be corroborated by looking through instructional material provided to polygraph operators, including the DoDPI items available for download on the right side of the AntiPolygraph.org home page.

They are central to nearly every CQT polygraph examination. You know it, I know it and any avid reader of this Web site who has been “on the box” knows it.


Again, let’s start with my comments on the first deception that you ignored in my previous post.

Are you trying to assert that polygraph operators do not, on a routine basis, omit (intentionally or otherwise) the well-established truth that the autonomic nervous system responses chronicled on a polygraph instrument can result from numerous phenomena other than attempts at deception?

Yes or no, it’s that simple.

Quote:
What exactly are your qualifications to assess the quality of psychophisological reasearch? Your book doesn't claim anything more than you attended a couple of meetings in Washington DC.

This is the classic example of an ad hominem attack. My argument mentions that Dr. Richardson described polygraph operators as a group lacking educational credentials with regard to physiology. You turn it against me personally.

I keep my personal life just that--personal--for two reasons:
(1) It has no bearing on my well-referenced criticism of polygraphy; and
(2) Like it or not, my day job involves playing for the same team that you once did. I won't go any further than that.
« Last Edit: Mar 20th, 2009 at 6:50am by G Scalabr »  
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