Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Missouri Firefighters Ordered to Submit to Polygraph "Testing" or Face Termination (Read 24039 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box SanchoPanza
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 343
Joined: Dec 8th, 2007
Re: Missouri Firefighters Ordered to Submit to Polygraph "Testing" or Face Termination
Reply #15 - Oct 17th, 2008 at 1:08pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Mr. Scalabrini,

Are you asserting that the techniques that you publish in your book DON'T WORK if used by criminals? You provide your book and techniques free of charge to ANYONE. I think the term anyone would necessarily include criminals wouldn't it? Do you deny the simple logic that a criminal might read your book and and attempt to use its contents to conceal their criminal activity? I think that there is an undeniable chain of inference that proves the assertion. Deduction is an accepted form of argument in academia when supported by a articulable chain of inference.

Trying to deny that your book attempts to teach the reader ways and means to conceal criminal activity is like saying that lockpicking books don't teach burglars how to gain access to the houses they burgle or that bomb making manuals don't teach terrorists how to make bombs. Except of course, that lockpicking and bomb making manuals have a better chance of working. 



As to the remainder of my assertion, Why Gino, I'm glad you asked,
In your book the following text appears at or near the locations noted. 
Quote:
But don’t tell your polygrapher that you’ve read this book or that you’ve done research on the Internet and visited such websites as
AntiPolygraph.org! Page 140 CONCEALING INFORMATION

Quote:
Instead, provide a general answer to his question about what you know about polygraphy, such as: Page 140 SUGGESTING LIES TO TELL THE EXAMINER
I heard on T.V. that they’re almost always accurate when
used by a skilled examiner. Is that right?
• A friend of mine in law enforcement said not to worry, just
go in and tell the truth, and you’ll have no problem!
• I understand that polygraphs are a lot more accurate than
those voice stress analyzers. (Polygraphers generally hold the competing
voodoo science of Computerized Voice Stress Analysis
[CVSA] in utter contempt.)
• I read in the paper that the polygraph has been constantly
improving with time and that the latest computerized polygraphs
are very reliable.
• When I was in grade school, a polygraph examiner came
and gave a demonstration to my class and showed us how the test
is done using my teacher as a volunteer. She lied about a card she
had picked from a deck, and the polygraph examiner caught her
lie and was even able to figure out exactly which card she had
picked!
• I heard it caught O.J. in a lie! (Virtually no one in the polygraph
community believes O.J. Simpson to be innocent of the
murder of his ex-wife, Nicole.)

Whatever answer you give, don’t memorize and repeat the above
examples word-for-word. Page 140 SUGGESTING WHICH LIES TO USE AND OFFERING ADVICE ON HOW TO DELIVER THEM.


Quote:
If you do choose to submit to a polygraph for some other
reason (most likely as a pre-requisite for an employment process),
the most important step you can take to minimize the potential
for a negative outcome is to make no admissions. Page 197 CONCEALING INFORMATION Note  this statement does not differentiate between what it is or isn't permissable to lie about

Quote:
Make no admissions is also the rule if and when a polygrapher accuses you of using countermeasures.  Page 197 IN OTHER WORDS IF THE EXAMINER ACCUSES YOU OF USEING THE TECHNIQUES TAUGHT ON ANTIPOLYGRAPH.ORG TO MANUFACTURE FALSE REACTIONS, LIE .


How many quotes and page numbers do you need.?

Now that I have answered your question with quotes and page numbers, could you please attempt to explain your blatantly false assertion that Polygraph is Quote:
a process which was OUTLAWED in the US in 1988 for everyone but government employees


By the way, my assertion regarding research studies that I stiil refuse to provide stems from a challenge to an assertion by Dr. Maschke that the countermeasures he teaches in your book are undetectable. As of this date, your co-author has been unable to produce  single research study that both (a) proved that the countermeasures he  teaches are an effective means of passing a polygraph and are undetectable and (b) cited your book TLBTLD as the source of the advice or training for effective and undetectable countermeasures. 
Quote:
The countermeasures we’ve discussed produce physiological responses that are indistinguishable from those that polygraphers believe to be associated with truth-telling concerning the relevant issues TLBTLD page 159.

When he produces evidence of his assertion that satisfies both aspects, I will review the evidence and either produce a citation for my assertion or withdraw it. 

Would you care to respond? Hint: if both (a) and (b) cannot be satisfied, then the only correct response can only be"There isn't a single research study anywhere that will satisfy both (a) and (b).  Hint #2 Citations in Chapter 4 of your book do not satisfy (b)

Sancho Panza

  

Quand vous citez des langues que vous ne parlez pas afin de sembler intellegent, vous vous avérez seulement que votre tête est gonflée mais videz.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box SanchoPanza
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 343
Joined: Dec 8th, 2007
Re: Missouri Firefighters Ordered to Submit to Polygraph "Testing" or Face Termination
Reply #16 - Oct 17th, 2008 at 1:19pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
T.M. Cullen wrote on Oct 17th, 2008 at 8:21am:
Can you please point out to us which portion of the book (page nr?) that provides "ways and means to attemptto conceal criminal activity"?Or are you just fibbing again?

And pleeeeaaase!Don't give us one of your long, convoluted posts.A page number will suffice.

Please see my response to Mr. Scalabrini. I'm sorry if it is too long and convoluted for you to understand but he asked for quotes. 

T.M. Cullen wrote on Oct 17th, 2008 at 8:14am:
If a person lies to a conman who is himself lying and trying to cheat them, then the conman is not in a very good position to complain about it.

It's like a "john" going to the police to report that some hooker, he hired illegally, has heisted his wallet!  


What published moral or ethical code permits an adherant to lie or cheat, just because they suspect that they suspect someone is lying to them? 

I accept the possibility that your knowledge of the interactions that occur between "hookers" and "Johns" exceeds my own, but I am aware of more than one arrest and successful prosecution of a "hooker" for theft, based on a complaint by a "John".

Sancho Panza
  

Quand vous citez des langues que vous ne parlez pas afin de sembler intellegent, vous vous avérez seulement que votre tête est gonflée mais videz.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box GreenEarth
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 2
Joined: May 19th, 2008
Re: Missouri Firefighters Ordered to Submit to Polygraph "Testing" or Face Termination
Reply #17 - Oct 17th, 2008 at 2:27pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
"If a person lies to a conman who is himself lying and trying to cheat them, then the conman is not in a very good position to complain about it."

I do not understand the bickering. Officers of the law are admitted to lie to suspects during interrogations of a crime If I getting all this right, polygraphers are said to be thrwarting the truth about so-called control/comparisions and even expect folks to lie on them to compare to relevant. Why do polygraphers protest so much if it is OK for them to be be deceptive during the "PROCESS".

We have been lied to by Congress by elected "OFFICIALS" Financial Institutions our companies and generally lied to by folks WE put in CHARGE!

Who is leading by example? The rest of the world needs to know....
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box T.M. Cullen
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 858
Location: Hawaii
Joined: Dec 5th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: Missouri Firefighters Ordered to Submit to Polygraph "Testing" or Face Termination
Reply #18 - Oct 17th, 2008 at 6:06pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Cullen Quote:
Today at 4:21am:
Can you please point out to us which portion of the book (page nr?) that provides "ways and means to attemptto conceal criminal activity"?Or are you just fibbing again?

And pleeeeaaase!Don't give us one of your long, convoluted posts.A page number will suffice.


SP Quote:

Please see my response to Mr. Scalabrini. I'm sorry if it is too long and convoluted for you to understand but he asked for quotes.


None of the quotes from TLBLD in that post have anything to do with concealing "criminal activity".  If the person being tested is innocent, how could they be "concealing criminal activity"?

OTOH, if they are guilty, and lie about an actual crime, then they are concealing criminal activity.

In fact, the author makes ALL of these suggestions explicitly for the benefit of INNOCENT people about to undergo a polygraph interrogation, to protect themselves from falsely being branded deceptive.  So how is it criminal activity?  Would a PA prosecute such a person under these circumstances?  Concealing criminal activity IS a crime, isn't it?

TC
  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box T.M. Cullen
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 858
Location: Hawaii
Joined: Dec 5th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: Missouri Firefighters Ordered to Submit to Polygraph "Testing" or Face Termination
Reply #19 - Oct 17th, 2008 at 6:09pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Quote:
Are you asserting that the techniques that you publish in your book DON'T WORK if used by criminals?


If a person murders somebody with a knife, is the knife manufacturer complicit in that murder?

TC
  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box SanchoPanza
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 343
Joined: Dec 8th, 2007
Re: Missouri Firefighters Ordered to Submit to Polygraph "Testing" or Face Termination
Reply #20 - Oct 18th, 2008 at 2:30am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
T.M. Cullen wrote on Oct 17th, 2008 at 6:09pm:
If a person murders somebody with a knife, is the knife manufacturer complicit in that murder?

He isn't providing a product he is providing advice. Lawyers and Physicians are held accountable for their advice through malpractice actions. Dr. Maschke still enjoys the benefits of the First Amendment in a country he has chosen to leave. Legally he is not responsible for someone's use of his protected speech. Legal immunity does not in my opinion insulate him from moral or ethical responsibilty for his words and actions. Does this bother him? I think not. But if you ask most people if lying or cheating is wrong they will tell you that it is. Based on his writings Dr. Maschke does not think that way. 

This situation would be more akin to attempting to provide a means of getting away with the murder after it was committed. 

What you call "explicitly for the benefit of INNOCENT people",  I consider an occasional disclaimer and careful choice of words used to provide an escape argument or plausible deniability for his "lie coaching behavior'.    Why don't you go back and read his whole book and calculate how much space he devotes to encouraging the reader to tell the truth versus how much space he devotes to  telling the reader it is OK to lie and deliberately conceal information as well as offering suggestions regarding ways and means to attempt conceal criminal activity in order to cheat the testing process.  

FYI countermeasures and lying gets a whole chapter. 

If you cannot understand the concept of deduction by chain of inference detailed in my earlier post, futher explanation probably won't help you.

Sancho Panza
  

Quand vous citez des langues que vous ne parlez pas afin de sembler intellegent, vous vous avérez seulement que votre tête est gonflée mais videz.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box G Scalabr
Global Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 358
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Deception and Criminals
Reply #21 - Oct 18th, 2008 at 2:34am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Quote:
You provide your book and techniques free of charge to ANYONE. I think the term anyone would necessarily include criminals wouldn't it?

Using this definition, you are correct in that we are providing information to criminals. Glock is also furnishing firearms to criminals. Microsoft and Apple are providing technology and GM is providing transportation—all to the most dangerous of hardened professional criminals.

To assert that the words “anyone” and “criminals” are synonymous in the English language is beyond preposterous.

Quote:
OK to lie and deliberately conceal information as well as offering suggestions regarding ways and means to attempt conceal criminal activity

As we have made clear numerous times, our preferred advice is that readers refuse to submit to evaluation by polygraphy, or use the “complete honesty” approach.

Still, considering all of the deception inherent in the polygraph process, I don’t see an ethical issue with the person being tested engaging in the same behavior as the examiner, albeit to a lesser degree. I see it as no more egregious than telling a used car salesman that I have found a better price on a comparable vehicle elsewhere after he plays the game of visiting the manager to see “how low he can go.”

The analogy is apropos because both car sales and polygraphy are processes fraught with deception. 

Let’s not forget that the bedrock of the CQT (more properly called the “probable lie” test) involves the polygraph operator himself misleading the person being tested into lying on “control” questions. 

This deception is set up by fooling the examinee into believing that he is being “tested” on these questions and that if he lies when answering them, he will fail. In actuality, if one answers them completely truthfully, he will fail.

These two deceptions are the cornerstone of CQT polygraphy. This is not your polygraph suite. Our readers know that those who pass the CQT even with the highest scores are assumed by the polygrapher to be untruthful on roughly 1/3 of the questions in the “test.”

To argue that we “offer suggestions regarding ways and means to attempt conceal criminal activity” is beyond silly, again, unless you use your warped definitions where the words “anyone” and “criminals” can be used interchangeably and McDonald’s is thus guilty of providing food to criminals.

If you know of a way that we can reach innocent people without giving criminals the potential to misuse the information we provide, please let me know.

SanchoPanza wrote on Oct 17th, 2008 at 1:19pm:
What published moral or ethical code permits an adherant to lie or cheat, just because they suspect that they suspect someone is lying to them? 
Sancho Panza

For starters, the CQT polygraph operator's code of ethics . . . 

Quote:
Now that I have answered your question with quotes and page numbers, could you please attempt to explain your blatantly false assertion that polygraph[y] is a process which was OUTLAWED in the US in 1988 for everyone but government employees


From the US Department of Labor’s Web site
The Employee Polygraph Protection Act of 1988 (EPPA) generally prevents employers from using lie detector tests, either for pre-employment screening or during the course of employment, with certain exemptions. Employers generally may not require or request any employee or job applicant to take a lie detector test, or discharge, discipline, or discriminate against an employee or job applicant for refusing to take a test or for exercising other rights under the Act. In addition, employers are required to display the EPPA poster in the workplace for their employees.

When an act of Congress “prevents employers from [engaging in polygraphy],”one can reasonably conclude that the process has been outlawed for those in the private workplace (at least when traditional definitions of words in the English language are employed).

Do you know of any valid diagnostic tests where the US Department of Labor requires notification to all employees via a poster hung conspicuously in an area of congregation that asking one to submit is generally prohibited, and that no consequences are allowed to be levied against those who refuse ? 
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box G Scalabr
Global Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 358
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: Missouri Firefighters Ordered to Submit to Polygraph "Testing" or Face Termination
Reply #22 - Oct 18th, 2008 at 4:01am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
SanchoPanza wrote on Oct 18th, 2008 at 2:30am:
T.M. Cullen wrote on Oct 17th, 2008 at 6:09pm:
If a person murders somebody with a knife, is the knife manufacturer complicit in that murder?

He isn't providing a product he is providing advice. Legal immunity does not in my opinion insulate him from moral or ethical responsibilty for his words and actions. Does this bother him? I think not. 

But if you ask most people if lying or cheating is wrong they will tell you that it is. Based on his writings Dr. Maschke does not think that way. 

This situation would be more akin to attempting to provide a means of getting away with the murder after it was committed. 

 Why don't you go back and read his whole book and calculate how much space he devotes to encouraging the reader to tell the truth versus how much space he devotes to  telling the reader it is OK to lie and deliberately conceal information as well as offering suggestions regarding ways and means to attempt conceal criminal activity in order to cheat the testing process.  

Sancho Panza


The advice we give to criminal suspects is crystal clear and runs 1.5 pages: 

From pp 122-124
Quote:
If You Are Suspected of a Crime
If you have been asked to submit to a polygraph examination in
connection with a criminal investigation, “just say no!” You should
not submit to any polygraph “test.” (In most cases, the fact that
you refused to submit to a polygraph “test” will not be admissible
polygraph countermeasures 123
as evidence in court.) Instead, you should get a lawyer. If for some
reason your lawyer advises you to submit to a police polygraph
interrogation, ask him to read this book. Just like a majority of the
public at large, many lawyers are simply ignorant of the true nature
of the polygraph process. If, after reading this book, your lawyer
still advises you to submit to a polygraph “test,” you should probably
fire your lawyer. You have little to gain by submitting to a polygraph
interrogation and much to lose: if you “pass,” the police may well
continue to suspect you regardless; if you “fail,” it will only confirm
their suspicions, and news of your “failure” may well be leaked to
the local media to smear you. 

As John A. Larson, a pioneer of polygraphic lie detection lamented:
I originally hoped that instrumental lie detection would become
a legitimate part of professional police science. It is little more
than a racket. The lie detector, as used in many places, is nothing
more than a psychological third-degree aimed at extorting confessions
as the old physical beatings were. At times I’m sorry I ever
had any part in its development.24

Top-flight defense attorneys never let their clients submit to a polygraph “test” 
conducted by the police or any other authority. In the
few cases where clients are polygraphed (most notably high profile
cases where the client is being tried in the media), the attorney
makes arrangements to hire a private polygrapher. The “test” is
conducted in private, and the results, which are protected by
attorney-client privilege, are released only if the client “passes.”
This was the protocol used by the attorneys for O.J. Simpson, John
and Patsy Ramsey, and Gary Condit. The Ramseys and Condit
“passed,” and their results were therefore made public. Mr. Simpson
apparently fared worse, and his results were never made public.
24Cited in J.H. Skolnick, “Scientific Theory and Scientific Evidence: An Analysis
of Lie Detection,” The Yale Law Journal, Vol. 70 (1961), pp. 694, 728. Cited in
Lykken (1998) at pp. 28Ð29.
(After word got out that Mr. Simpson had been polygraphed by a
124 the lie behind the lie detector
private examiner, the official explanation was that he was hooked
up to the polygraph to see how it works, but that no actual “test”
was conducted.)


In addition to our writing, we have counseled many accused persons here on this forum. 

We have never wavered in our advice that criminals suspects refuse a polygraph under any circumstances. We make it very clear that while polygraph results are not admissible in court, any confession during the "test" is likely to be. Moreover, we underscore the point that the latter is the primary goal in polygraphs of criminal suspects, and that all questioning is done without the suspect's attorney present.

I don't know how we could be more persuasive to the criminal element that they should not attempt to lie through and/or cheat the polygraph process--they should never get anywhere near it!

Quote:
But if you ask most people if lying or cheating is wrong they will tell you that it is. Based on his writings Dr. Maschke does not think that way.

Polygraph examiners definitely will--despite the fact that they earn their livelihoods from a pseudoscientific fraud that is predicated on these very activities. This makes them twice as guilty in my book--not only do they engage in lying and cheating (for a living!), but they lie and cheat about not doing it . . .
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Sergeant1107
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 730
Location: Connecticut, USA
Joined: May 21st, 2005
Gender: Male
Re: Missouri Firefighters Ordered to Submit to Polygraph "Testing" or Face Termination
Reply #23 - Oct 18th, 2008 at 4:04am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
SanchoPanza wrote on Oct 18th, 2008 at 2:30am:
He isn't providing a product he is providing advice. Lawyers and Physicians are held accountable for their advice through malpractice actions. 


Using your same logic, an attorney who tells the general public that it is often wise to ask for a lawyer rather than submitting to a police interview should be denigrated for advising people to conceal criminal activity.  I disagree.

I think George has made it abundantly clear on numerous occasions that he believes examinees have an ethical responsibility to tell the truth on all relevant questions.

If the polygraph functioned as touted by the pro-polygraph crowd there would be no need for any innocent examinees to contemplate countermeasures in order to help protect from the very real possibility of a false-positive.

If the APA (or anyone else) ever comes up with an instrument that reliably detects truth or deception the problem of offering advice to truthful people that can also be used by liars will cease to exist.
  

Lorsque vous utilisez un argumentum ad hominem, tout le monde sait que vous êtes intellectuellement faillite.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box SanchoPanza
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 343
Joined: Dec 8th, 2007
Re: Missouri Firefighters Ordered to Submit to Polygraph "Testing" or Face Termination
Reply #24 - Oct 18th, 2008 at 12:13pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Sergeant1107 wrote on Oct 18th, 2008 at 4:04am:
Using your same logic, an attorney who tells the general public that it is often wise to ask for a lawyer rather than submitting to a police interview should be denigrated for advising people to conceal criminal activity.I disagree.


Advising a client to lie is NOT the same as advising him to keep his mouth shut.
If a lawyer is certain that his client intends to commit perjury, the lawyer must first attempt to persuade the client to testify truthfully. If the client still intends to lie, the lawyer must threaten to reveal the client's intent to commit perjury to the judge. If the threat of disclosure does not alter the client's plan, then the lawyer must do whatever is necessary to prevent the commission of perjury by his client, including, but not limited to, disclosing his client's intent to lie to the judge. If he coaches his client on how to lie effectively he has aided an abetted a perjury. 
I would think a police officer woudl know the difference. 

Sancho Panza
  

Quand vous citez des langues que vous ne parlez pas afin de sembler intellegent, vous vous avérez seulement que votre tête est gonflée mais videz.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box SanchoPanza
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 343
Joined: Dec 8th, 2007
Re: Missouri Firefighters Ordered to Submit to Polygraph "Testing" or Face Termination
Reply #25 - Oct 18th, 2008 at 1:14pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
G Scalabr wrote on Oct 18th, 2008 at 2:34am:
To assert that the words “anyone” and “criminals” are synonymous in the English language is beyond preposterous.  

You are being absurd.
I did not assert  that anyone and criminals are synonymous. Inclusive and synonymous are not the same thing. You would think an academian would know the difference.

G Scalabr wrote on Oct 18th, 2008 at 4:01am:
The advice we give to criminal suspects is crystal clear and runs 1.5 pages:  


Wow really that much?  Your Chapter on Countermeasures runs over 41 pages. OH EXCUSE ME  if you subtract 1.5 pages of plausible deniability it's only 39.5 pages on how to lie and cheat on a polygraph exam.

Your silly contention reminds me of a scene in the movie 1941 where Dan Akroyd is giving Ned Beatty detailed step by step instructions on how "NOT" to fire an anti-aircraft gun. 

Bomb making manuals and lockpicking manuals have their disclaimers too. 
Example: from the Anarchists Cookbook site
Quote:
NOTICE: TO ALL CONCERNED Certain text files and messages contained on this site deal with activities and devices which would be in violation of various Federal, State, and local laws if actually carried out or constructed. The webmaster of this site and associated businesses do not advocate the breaking of any law. Our text files and message bases are for informational and entertainment purposes only. We recommend that you contact your local law enforcement officials before undertaking any project based upon any information obtained from this or any other web site. We do not guarantee that any of the information contained on this system is correct, workable, or factual. We are not responsible for, nor do we assume any liability for, damages resulting from the use of any information on this site.


I think the phrase "Certain Exemptions" in your quote from the Department of Labor Web Page certainly conflicts with the phrase OUTLAWED in the US in 1988 for everyone but government employees. Actually there are exemptions for pre-employment tests in certain private industries and they are permitted throughout the private sector when an employer suffers an economic loss, providing the rules set out in the act are followed. 

from http://www.dol.gov/esa/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs36.pdf
Quote:
The Act also includes limited exemptions where polygraph tests (but no other lie detector tests) may be administered in the private sector, subject to certain restrictions:
• To employees who are reasonably suspected of involvement in a workplace incident that results in economic loss to the employer and who had access to the property that is the subject of an investigation; and
• To prospective employees of armored car, security alarm, and security guard firms who protect facilities, materials or operations affecting health or safety, national security, or currency and other like instruments; and
• To prospective employees of pharmaceutical and other firms authorized to manufacture, distribute, or dispense controlled substances who will have direct access to such controlled substances, as well as current employee who had access to persons or property that are the subject of an ongoing investigation.

I don't really see how you can argue that something this"permitted" can be "Outlawed" by any common definition of the word. 

It's almost like arguing that Police Searches are outlawed simply because the constitution requires that a warrant be obtained or an exception articulated. 

Sancho Panza
  

Quand vous citez des langues que vous ne parlez pas afin de sembler intellegent, vous vous avérez seulement que votre tête est gonflée mais videz.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Missouri Firefighters Ordered to Submit to Polygraph "Testing" or Face Termination

Please type the characters that appear in the image. The characters must be typed in the same order, and they are case-sensitive.
Open Preview Preview

You can resize the textbox by dragging the right or bottom border.
Insert Hyperlink Insert FTP Link Insert Image Insert E-mail Insert Media Insert Table Insert Table Row Insert Table Column Insert Horizontal Rule Insert Teletype Insert Code Insert Quote Edited Superscript Subscript Insert List /me - my name Insert Marquee Insert Timestamp No Parse
Bold Italicized Underline Insert Strikethrough Highlight
                       
Change Text Color
Insert Preformatted Text Left Align Centered Right Align
resize_wb
resize_hb







Max 200000 characters. Remaining characters:
Text size: pt
More Smilies
View All Smilies
Collapse additional features Collapse/Expand additional features Smiley Wink Cheesy Grin Angry Sad Shocked Cool Huh Roll Eyes Tongue Embarrassed Lips Sealed Undecided Kiss Cry
Attachments More Attachments Allowed file types: txt doc docx ics psd pdf bmp jpe jpg jpeg gif png swf zip rar tar gz 7z odt ods mp3 mp4 wav avi mov 3gp html maff pgp gpg
Maximum Attachment size: 500000 KB
Attachment 1:
X