Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Missouri Firefighters Ordered to Submit to Polygraph "Testing" or Face Termination (Read 24031 times)
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Missouri Firefighters Ordered to Submit to Polygraph "Testing" or Face Termination
Oct 16th, 2008 at 9:51am
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While the 1988 Employee Polygraph Protection Act prevents most private employers from forcing applicants and employees to submit to the pseudoscientific ritual of polygraph "testing," the law includes a blanket loophole for federal, state, and local governments. One rule for the ruled, another rule for the rulers.

A case in Normandy, Missouri showcases the need for a Comprehensive Employee Polygraph Protection Act to eliminate the loopholes in the current law. Firefighters are being compelled to submit to lie detector "tests" -- a notoriously unreliable procedure that is without scientific basis -- or face termination, as Elizabethe Holland reports for the St. Louis Post-Dispatch:

Quote:
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/stlouiscitycounty/story/367594...

Loose wheel prompts lie-detector tests for firefighters
By Elizabethe Holland
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
10/16/2008

NORMANDY — Firefighters with the Northeast Ambulance & Fire District have been asked by their employer, under threat of termination, to take lie-detector tests to determine if any of them loosened lug nuts on a fellow firefighter's truck last month.

Firefighter Capt. Joseph McNeal was driving from the Metro East to the firehouse in Normandy on Sept. 28 when a wheel came off his pickup. McNeal, 30, told the Post-Dispatch he thinks someone loosened his lug nuts Sept. 26 or 27 while his Ford was parked at the firehouse. He says he thinks he was targeted because he is African-American. The department has had a history of racial dissension.

Officials with the St. Louis County and Normandy police, the Missouri Highway Patrol and the FBI said Wednesday that they hadn't received any reports of the incident. And Normandy Police Chief Douglas Lebert criticized the district's board of directors for threatening to submit employees to polygraph exams instead of involving police.

"We're dealing with a felony crime here," Lebert said. "Anything (board members) have done up to this point and anything they do after this point only interferes with any chance of us coming in and criminally finding who's responsible for this and prosecuting that person."


McNeal spoke early Sept. 28 with an Illinois State Police trooper who responded to the area where the wheel came off, but said he didn't report to any other police his suspicion that the truck had been sabotaged. Rather, he said, he told a deputy chief at the fire district.

Within days, firefighters were asked to sign documents telling of "an internal affairs investigation of alleged employee misconduct in the loosening of lug nuts" on McNeal's truck. The document says that employees may be required to cooperate with the investigation and the polygraph exam and that refusal to do so "may be grounds for disciplinary action ... including termination."

District board President Joe Washington, board Secretary-Treasurer Robert Edwards and Chief Peter O'Neal did not return calls seeking comment. Asked in an email Wednesday about the incident and the polygraph exams, the board's attorney, Elbert Walton Jr., responded, "No comments."

Board member Bob Lee, who is at odds with the board majority and Walton, said he learned of the incident and the plan to test firefighters only last week — from a district resident. Lee said Wednesday that there had been no discussion in board meetings of the incident or of having employees tested.

Polygraph tests for 30 employees — about the number of firefighters with the Northeast department — could cost $6,000, said John Grogan, executive director of the Polygraph Examiners of America.

McNeal said he parked his 2004 Ford pickup at the firehouse early Sept. 26. When his shift ended the next morning, he drove to his home in St. Louis. A short time later, his wife, with the couple's baby along, drove the truck to a gas station and a restaurant, McNeal said. The truck wasn't driven again until the next morning, when McNeal drove it to Illinois to help a friend, he said. On the way back from the Metro East, he heard a rattling noise and then "the wheel just came off," he said.

An Illinois State Police incident report says the lugs were bent when the wheel assembly came off. "No lug nuts remained on the rotor lugs," he report continues. "This appeared to be the reason the wheel assembly came off the rotor."

McNeal said he was grateful that the wheel didn't come off when his wife was driving and that the wheel didn't cause a wreck.

"This could have killed somebody," said McNeal, who added that he now checks his truck closely every time he leaves the firehouse.

Northeast Deputy Chief Airest Wilson said district officials suspected an employee was involved because of "a history" of problems between black and white employees.

All three board members, the board attorney, the fire chief and most of the district officers are African-American. Wilson said the department was about half black, half white.

Wilson said McNeal's incident wasn't the first such occurrence involving a black district firefighter. He referred to an incident involving former employee Kevin Henderson, whose tire came off his car several years ago.

Reached last week, Henderson, now with the Spanish Lake Fire Protection District, said he never believed anyone loosened his lug nuts. The car was about 15 years old and he'd recently purchased it, he said.

Henderson, who was fired by the Northeast board in July, said that Washington — the board president, but at the time the district's assistant chief — had urged him to make a complaint but that he would not.

Dennis Murray, who heads the union that represents many of the district's firefighters, criticized the board and its attorney for not calling in law enforcement to investigate what could be a hate crime. Still, he said, he is recommending that firefighters take the polygraph exam.

"Take the lie-detector test and prove your innocence and move on," Murray said.


eholland@post-dispatch.com | 314-340-8259


I have sent a note to the Normandy Fire District at board@northeastfiredistrict.org:

Quote:
Dear Normandy Fire District Board Members:

It is a mistake to order firefighters to submit to lie detector testing. Polygraphy has no scientific basis, and is inherently biased against the truthful. In addition, deceptive persons can pass the test using simple countermeasures that polygraph operators have no demonstrated ability to detect.

A polygraph dragnet has virtually no chance of determining 1) whether a crime was committed and 2) if so, who committed it. But it could very easily wrongly implicate one or more innocent employees.

For a thorough debunking of the lie detector, see AntiPolygraph.org's book, The Lie Behind the Lie Detector, which may be downloaded in PDF format here:

http://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf

Sincerely,

George W. Maschke, Ph.D.
AntiPolygraph.org
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« Last Edit: Oct 16th, 2008 at 12:14pm by George W. Maschke »  

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Re: Missouri Firefighters Ordered to Submit to Polygraph "Testing" or Face Termination
Reply #1 - Oct 16th, 2008 at 5:21pm
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Dr. Maschke 

I'm betting that you also sent a link to your book to the firefighters union so they could try to cheat on their tests. 

Did You??  You better hurry because I'll bet Doug Williams is offering them on-site training. 

Who do you think is more likely to take your advice and try countermeaures, an innocent person or  someone who attempted to kill a man because of the color of his skin?

For the record, I think fire district is wrong here. This investigation should be left in the hands of the police or FBI. I am also not sure that the fire district board or its employees would be considered an exempt government entity under the Employee Polygraph Protection Act. 
 
From their web site:
Quote:
The Normandy Fire Protection District is not governed by the City of Normandy nor any of the cities within its geographical boundaries; instead an independently elected three member Board of Directors manages and sets policies for the district.


The board seems to be more of a Co-Op than a government entity. Based on their web site I think they are subject to the same EPPA restrictions as any private employer. If they are not exempt, I seriously doubt the incident as described meets the standards required for employers testing employees.  Even if the incident met EPPA standards, there doesn't seem to be any information that would justify testing 30 employees.   No wonder John Grogan's name popped up in the story, He doesn't think he has to comply with EPPA, probably because he never finished polygraph school and has never been a licensed examiner. 


Sancho Panza
  

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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box T.M. Cullen
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Re: Missouri Firefighters Ordered to Submit to Polygraph "Testing" or Face Termination
Reply #2 - Oct 16th, 2008 at 6:11pm
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Quote:
Who do you think is more likely to take your advice and try countermeaures, an innocent person or  someone who attempted to kill a man because of the color of his skin?


Flip of the coin.  Same as polygraph itself.

TC
  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
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Re: Missouri Firefighters Ordered to Submit to Polygraph "Testing" or Face Termination
Reply #3 - Oct 16th, 2008 at 6:26pm
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T.M. Cullen wrote on Oct 16th, 2008 at 6:11pm:
Quote:
Who do you think is more likely to take your advice and try countermeaures, an innocent person or  someone who attempted to kill a man because of the color of his skin?


Flip of the coin.  Same as polygraph itself.

TC


I disagree.  I don't believe that honest or innocent people are predisposed or motivated to cheat and lie like guilty people are.

I think  Dr. Maschke agrees with me; as evidenced by the amount of effort he expends trying to turn honest and innocent people into liars and cheaters versus the amount of space he commits to encouraging the guilty to tell the truth and confess their crimes.   

Sancho Panza. 
  

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Re: Missouri Firefighters Ordered to Submit to Polygraph "Testing" or Face Termination
Reply #4 - Oct 16th, 2008 at 6:28pm
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Quote:
......as evidenced by the amount of effort he expends trying to turn honest and innocent people into liars and cheaters....


I think polygraphy does a pretty good job of that.  Accusing honest and innocent people of lying, that is.

TC
  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
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Re: Missouri Firefighters Ordered to Submit to Polygraph "Testing" or Face Termination
Reply #5 - Oct 16th, 2008 at 11:24pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
SanchoPanza wrote on Oct 16th, 2008 at 5:21pm:
Dr. Maschke 

I'm betting that you also sent a link to your book to the firefighters union so they could try to cheat on their tests. 

Did You??  You better hurry because I'll bet Doug Williams is offering them on-site training. 

Who do you think is more likely to take your advice and try countermeaures, an innocent person or  someone who attempted to kill a man because of the color of his skin?

For the record, I think fire district is wrong here. This investigation should be left in the hands of the police or FBI. I am also not sure that the fire district board or its employees would be considered an exempt government entity under the Employee Polygraph Protection Act. 
 
From their web site:
Quote:
The Normandy Fire Protection District is not governed by the City of Normandy nor any of the cities within its geographical boundaries; instead an independently elected three member Board of Directors manages and sets policies for the district.


The board seems to be more of a Co-Op than a government entity. Based on their web site I think they are subject to the same EPPA restrictions as any private employer. If they are not exempt, I seriously doubt the incident as described meets the standards required for employers testing employees.  Even if the incident met EPPA standards, there doesn't seem to be any information that would justify testing 30 employees.   No wonder John Grogan's name popped up in the story, He doesn't think he has to comply with EPPA, probably because he never finished polygraph school and has never been a licensed examiner. 


Sancho Panza


I was honest and truthful, took the scam and FAILED as many others have.
So, your question on who would be "more likely" to use countermeasures is as invalid as your silly test.
What cracks me up is your unwillingness to see the truth in an attempt to hold on to your job no matter what the evidence against polygraph or how many tell you they failed despite being truthful.

  
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Re: Missouri Firefighters Ordered to Submit to Polygraph "Testing" or Face Termination
Reply #6 - Oct 17th, 2008 at 12:31am
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SanchoPanza wrote on Oct 16th, 2008 at 5:21pm:
Dr. Maschke  

Who do you think is more likely to take your advice and try countermeaures, an innocent person or  someone who attempted to kill a man because of the color of his skin?

Sancho Panza


Innocence or guilt is the wrong bellwether. I don't think that any reliable generalization can be made on that basis.

The real question is how much does the individual know about polygraphy?

Those who are informed about polygraphy and know about the trickery behind it are more likely to employ countermeasures (or to refuse to submit at all if possible) than individuals who base their knowledge of the procedure on what they have learned from Hollywood.

Again, we are talking about a process which was OUTLAWED in the US in 1988 for everyone but government employees.

  
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Re: Missouri Firefighters Ordered to Submit to Polygraph "Testing" or Face Termination
Reply #7 - Oct 17th, 2008 at 3:00am
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G Scalabr wrote on Oct 17th, 2008 at 12:31am:
Again, we are talking about a process which was OUTLAWED in the US in 1988 for everyone but government employees.


Mr. Scalabrini, Considering your status as a co-author of a book (TLBTLD) that repeatedly tells the reader it is OK to lie and deliberately conceal information as well as offering suggestions regarding ways and means to attempt conceal criminal activity;  you should know the content and scope of the Employee Polygraph Protection Act of 1988.  As evidence of this I offer your proposal to change the law which is located in appendix E of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector in which the following quote appears. 
Quote:
We propose the following changes to the Employee Polygraph Protection Act (29 USC 22).
 
Surely you wouldn't propose a change to a law you didn't read or understand. I might note that after eight years your efforts as well as the Employee Polygraph Protection Act are right where they started. 

Polygraph was NOT outlawed, banned, declared illegal or prohibited in 1988 for everyone but government employees and you know it. I can only conclude that the above statement is an attempt to deliberately mislead the readers of this board.

Sancho Panza
  

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Re: Missouri Firefighters Ordered to Submit to Polygraph "Testing" or Face Termination
Reply #8 - Oct 17th, 2008 at 3:10am
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T.M. Cullen wrote on Oct 16th, 2008 at 6:28pm:
I think polygraphy does a pretty good job of that.Accusing honest and innocent people of lying, that is.

TC  


One thing is for sure. If Dr. Maschke is successful in his quest in turning honest truthful people into liars and cheaters, then anytime a polygrapher accuses somebody who follows Dr. Maschke's instructions of lying or cheating on their exam, then they certainly won't be in a very good position to claim that they told the truth and failed or claim that they didn't cheat will they?

Sancho Panza
  

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Re: Missouri Firefighters Ordered to Submit to Polygraph "Testing" or Face Termination
Reply #9 - Oct 17th, 2008 at 3:27am
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If they are going to go through with such an ill-advised plan, they ought to polygraph everyone, including the bosses, members of the town government, people with ironclad alibis for the time in question, and a random sampling of other town employees who have nothing at all to do with it.

Maybe after a couple of the bosses are accused of lying and some of the people with unshakable alibis and/or with no connection at all to the case are scored "deception indicated" that would help change a few minds about the accuracy of the polygraph.
  

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Re: Missouri Firefighters Ordered to Submit to Polygraph "Testing" or Face Termination
Reply #10 - Oct 17th, 2008 at 3:35am
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notguilty1 wrote on Oct 16th, 2008 at 11:24pm:
I was honest and truthful, took the scam and FAILED as many others have


If you had taken Dr. Maschke's advice about countermeasures before your polygraph test and failed anyway would you be so quick to make the above claim, when you started complaining about your failure?   

That is what happened  to kpminam. He followed Dr. Maschkes instructions and lied and cheated on his polygraph. He got caught at it. Before taking Dr. Maschke's advice he was basically an honest person and when he failed as a result of his own manipulations he had no claim of error. 

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Re: Missouri Firefighters Ordered to Submit to Polygraph "Testing" or Face Termination
Reply #11 - Oct 17th, 2008 at 8:14am
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Quote:
One thing is for sure. If Dr. Maschke is successful in his quest in turning honest truthful people into liars and cheaters, then anytime a polygrapher accuses somebody who follows Dr. Maschke's instructions of lying or cheating on their exam, then they certainly won't be in a very good position to claim that they told the truth and failed or claim that they didn't cheat will they?


If a person lies to a conman who is himself lying and trying to cheat them, then the conman is not in a very good position to complain about it.

It's like a "john" going to the police to report that some hooker, he hired illegally, has heisted his wallet! 

TC
  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
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Re: Missouri Firefighters Ordered to Submit to Polygraph "Testing" or Face Termination
Reply #12 - Oct 17th, 2008 at 8:21am
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Quote:
Mr. Scalabrini, Considering your status as a co-author of a book (TLBTLD) that repeatedly tells the reader it is OK to lie and deliberately conceal information as well as offering suggestions regarding ways and means to attempt conceal criminal activity;


Can you please point out to us which portion of the book (page nr?) that provides "ways and means to attempt  to conceal criminal activity"?  Or are you just fibbing again?

And pleeeeaaase!  Don't give us one of your long, convoluted posts.  A page number will suffice.

TC
  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
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Re: Missouri Firefighters Ordered to Submit to Polygraph "Testing" or Face Termination
Reply #13 - Oct 17th, 2008 at 9:12am
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SanchoPanza wrote on Oct 16th, 2008 at 5:21pm:
Dr. Maschke 

I'm betting that you also sent a link to your book to the firefighters union so they could try to cheat on their tests. 

Did You??  You better hurry because I'll bet Doug Williams is offering them on-site training.


I hadn't yet contacted the firefighters union when you posted. But I have now sent the following message to International Association of Firefighters Local 2665, which represents firefighters in eastern Missouri:

Quote:
Dear IAFF Local 2665 Members,

I'm a co-founder of AntiPolygraph.org, a non-profit, public interest website dedicated to exposing and ending waste, fraud, and abuse associated with the use of polygraphs and other purported "lie detectors."

The recently reported plan to force Normandy firefighters to submit to lie detector testing while no doubt well-intentioned, is ill-advised. The problem is that polygraphy has no scientific basis. The truthful often fail, while the deceptive can pass with the help of simple countermeasures that polygraphers have no demonstrated ability to detect.

The plan to force firefighters to submit to this pseudoscientific procedure has virtually zero chance of determining 1) whether a crime was committed and 2) if so, who committed it. But there is a very good chance that one or more innocent firefighters will wrongly fail and suffer adverse career consequences.

For more on polygraphy, and why it should have no place in the workplace, please see our book, The Lie Behind the Lie Detector, which may be downloaded as a PDF file here:

http://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf

Sincerely,

George W. Maschke, Ph.D.
Co-founder,
AntiPolygraph.org


My purpose is not to encourage cheating, but rather to inform them about the dangers of polygraphy, especially in view of union head Dennis Murray's advice, "Take the lie-detector test and prove your innocence and move on," which bespeaks a lack of understanding of the risks involved.

Quote:
Who do you think is more likely to take your advice and try countermeaures, an innocent person or  someone who attempted to kill a man because of the color of his skin?


We don't know whether a crime was committed and if so, the race and motive of the perpetrator, or whether such perpetrator was a firefighter. In any event, a mandatory polygraph dragnet is the wrong way to go about answering these questions.

Quote:
For the record, I think fire district is wrong here. This investigation should be left in the hands of the police or FBI.


I fully agree.

Quote:
I am also not sure that the fire district board or its employees would be considered an exempt government entity under the Employee Polygraph Protection Act. 
 
From their web site:
Quote:
The Normandy Fire Protection District is not governed by the City of Normandy nor any of the cities within its geographical boundaries; instead an independently elected three member Board of Directors manages and sets policies for the district.


The board seems to be more of a Co-Op than a government entity. Based on their web site I think they are subject to the same EPPA restrictions as any private employer.


No, the Northeast Ambulance and Fire Protection District is a state entity, as is made abundantly clear on its budget page, and thus exempt from the provisions of the Employee Polygraph Protection Act.

Quote:
If they are not exempt, I seriously doubt the incident as described meets the standards required for employers testing employees.  Even if the incident met EPPA standards, there doesn't seem to be any information that would justify testing 30 employees.


Agreed. The kind of polygraph dragnet planned by the Northeast department was outlawed by the EPPA. But as a governmental agency, the Northeast department is exempted from the law.

Quote:
No wonder John Grogan's name popped up in the story, He doesn't think he has to comply with EPPA, probably because he never finished polygraph school and has never been a licensed examiner.


I think the more likely explanation for John Grogan being mentioned in the story is that he was contacted by the reporter and asked for comment on the cost of performing 30 polygraph examinations. There is no indication that he was contacted by the Northeast Ambulance and Fire Protection District.
  

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Re: Missouri Firefighters Ordered to Submit to Polygraph "Testing" or Face Termination
Reply #14 - Oct 17th, 2008 at 10:09am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
This is another unsubstantiated assertion--just like your previous specious assertion about the existence of published studies demonstrating an ability of polygraphers to reliably detect countermeasures.

Quotes and corresponding page numbers please--I would especially like to see one for concealing criminal activity.

I know that polygraphy is not exactly associated with traditional academics. Still, on this forum, we like to follow traditonal rules of acdemic discourse. In academia, when you make a positive assertion, it is your responsibility to provide documentation supporting your claim--not the responsibility of others to "do research."
  
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