Normal Topic After 23 years of service my job is jeopardy! (Read 5966 times)
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After 23 years of service my job is jeopardy!
Sep 7th, 2008 at 4:26pm
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I have held a TS/SCI clearance for over 23 years at a certain department of defense agency in the Baltimore area. I had to pass a polygraph to get the job, and I have been passing them successfully every 5 years as part of my reinvestigation.... until now. I am now in the middle of my lastest reinvestigation and have just failed my forth polygraph test in this latest process. 

I think what happened this time is that there was a minor security incident that happened this year right before my first test. That was obviously on my mind and flagged on the test on one certain question. So I told the polygrapher everything about the incident and felt like my mind was clear. But again they said I kept having a reaction to that same question. You think? If someone just told you that you failed this particular question, how do they expect you not to react to that question when you hear it again? So I have gone through round after round of these people trying to get the "truth" from me. And when I say that I already told them everything, they insist that there must be something else because the test says that I am still hiding something. So I keep telling them more stuff, I wracked my brain for any security lapse I could think of no matter how minor.... even down to leaving my screen unlocked sometimes. I told them everything I could think of until there was nothing left, but they still insist there must be something I am hiding. I wish there was something else I could tell them. I feel like they want me to confess to a murder or something. I can clearly see now how innocent people end up in jail.

So four separate times over the past year I sat in that little room for up to 4 hours at a time trying to get past this one stupid question to no avail, still failing on the same question. I don't what else I can do. I mean if a dog bites you, how can you not have a response the next time you see that dog? The polygraph is really unfair and not at all valid, because I am absolutely telling the truth and now I am on the verge of losing my clearance, which means losing my job.

I may get one last chance to take the test, but at this point I don't know how I can possibly pass. I am completely psyched out and believe that I am doomed to fail. Has anyone ever had any success with getting past this mind game somehow? I was considering seeing a psycholigist or even a hypnotist to try to get my mind to cooperate so I can get through this. Does anyone think that could work? Any advice is greatly welcomed!!

Thanks!!
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

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Re: After 23 years of service my job is jeopardy!
Reply #1 - Sep 7th, 2008 at 4:54pm
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Fed-up,

At this point, I think the best you can do is to tell your polygrapher(s) that you have told the truth, and you have nothing more to tell. You shouldn't try to explain why their invalid test produced erroneous results. There is probably little, if anything, you could possibly say that would improve your situation.

For information on polygraph procedure, including the thoroughly discredited Relevant/Irrelevant technique used by the NSA to interrogate applicants and employees, see AntiPolygraph.org's free book, The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.

I think there is little point consulting with a psychiatrist or hypnotist. Instead, I suggest that you should protect your rights and consult with a law firm experienced in national security law, such as Krieger & Zaid or Kohn, Kohn & Colapinto.
« Last Edit: Sep 7th, 2008 at 5:11pm by George W. Maschke »  

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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box T.M. Cullen
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Re: After 23 years of service my job is jeopardy!
Reply #2 - Sep 7th, 2008 at 8:13pm
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I wracked my brain for any security lapse I could think of no matter how minor.... even down to leaving my screen unlocked sometimes.


This is the game they play, DO NOT PLAY ALONG!

They have a pattern of reactions from you, BUT NO ADMISSIONS.  This doesn't mean you are being deceptive.  Like you said, you are probably just reacting becuz they said you were having trouble with THAT question.

They played the same game with me in 2000.  I applied for a Chinese linguist position after retiring from the navy (20 years in which I held TS/SCI).  I was NSA professionalized, and even an NSA adjunct language instructor.  I too pasted four 5 year update BIs.

Anyway, it's the same old game.  "Gee you are having trouble with the foreign contact question.  So must get everything even remotely related to that OFF YOUR CHEST".  And like any honest, cooperative applicant I fell for it and finally ended up saying something they could use to eliminate me.  If you think about, why would you have to get everything off your chest.  They explain the relevant questions quite clearly.  Did you answer truthfully?  Yes?  Then logically, there would be nothing else to explain.  Don't let them get you to suspend your critical judgment!  Conversely, if you are answering truthfully, yet the machine is indicating deception, then, again logically, the problem must not be with you it must be with THEIR crappity smackING MACHINE!!!! 


Now, LEGALLY, if all they have is a set of chart readings which they claim show deception, but no admissions THEY CAN NOT FIRE YOU!  Looks like you are too late.  You admitted to a security breach.  I'll bet they are blowing it out of all proportion, aren't they.  Don't give them anything else!  Incidently, if you had admitted to your boss in ops to a minor security breach (rather than to a poly examiner during a 5 year update), would your job now be in jeapardy?!!  No, you'd get chewed out and maybe a little not in your personnel file.  Lesson?  DO NOT MAKE ADMISSIONS to anything short of the actual test question.  If the question concerns KNOWINGLY divulging classified information (and not minor security lapses), then concern yourself with the original question, and not anything tangential.

Take GM's advice.  Also, check out the following website:

http://www.sheldoncohen.com/publications/polygraph.htm

Federal administrative agencies handling employee appeals of adverse actions deal with polygraph results in a number of ways. The Defense Office of Hearings and Appeals which decides appeals of security clearance decisions, has held that admissions by an applicant made during a polygraph examination may be admissible even though the results of polygraph examination are not.(11), Such "results" would include the polygraph charts and the polygraph operator's interpretation of those chart, [The DOHA Appeal Board has held that Paragraph D.6 of DoD Directive 5210.48 which states that: "no adverse action will be taken solely on the basis of a polygraph examination chart that indicates deception" does not bar the use in evidence of applicant's admissions. DoD Reg. 5210.48-R provides, however, that the "results of an analysis of the polygraph charts may be considered to have probative value in administrative determinations.

You are at an advantage.   I was just an applicant, you are an actual EMPLOYEE.  From what I have heard over the years, is that if the folks you work for in OPS want you bad enough, and are willing to go to bat for you, they will just have you tested, and tested and tested until you pass.  They used to have an old lady examiner (grandmotherly type) who specialized in those types of cases.

If you just can't pass, and nobody will go to bat for you, and you end up maintaining your legal right not to be fired based soley on some squigly-wigglies on a set of poly charts, they will give you some lowly job not requiring a clearance.  IOW, under-employ you and try to get you to quit.

I hope that helps.

TC
« Last Edit: Sep 7th, 2008 at 8:33pm by T.M. Cullen »  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
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Re: After 23 years of service my job is jeopardy!
Reply #3 - Sep 8th, 2008 at 1:02am
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Oh I didn't have anything to tell them that was aggregious enough to get me removed. There was only one thing that was even semi-serious... the thing that got me hung up on THAT stupid question in the first place. That incident was reported to my management prior to my first polygrpah and there were no reprecussions for me. It was an oversight on my part and nobody in my office held it against me.   

It was after I admitted this to the polygrapher and still did not pass that I started wracking my brain for what else the problem could be. Everything esle was seriously minor stuff that would not ever have put my job in jeopardy. It was minor stuff like not always locking my screen, accidentally knocking over a monitor, spilling coffee in a keyboard. Really stupid stuff. I know I have never done anything so serious that it could warrant revocation of my clearance so I was not afraid to tell them any of that little stuff. They do make you feel like you have to tell them something! 

It's too late now though, I really don't have anything left to tell and still I have not passed. 

Thanks for the links and information though. I will read up and educate myself in the hopes that I will get another crack at this thing. I still can't believe that after all these years I find myself in this position. Can just reading about the test and knowing what the scam is really help me pass?

Thanks!
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box T.M. Cullen
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Re: After 23 years of service my job is jeopardy!
Reply #4 - Sep 8th, 2008 at 3:26am
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just reading about the test and knowing what the scam is really help me pass?


Pass the word on to your coworkers.  Make it easier for the next guy.

TC

  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
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After 23 years of service my job is jeopardy!

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