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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) FALSE syllogism? (Read 58056 times)
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Re: FALSE syllogism?
Reply #45 - May 22nd, 2008 at 1:55am
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notguilty1 wrote on May 22nd, 2008 at 1:18am:
sackett wrote on May 21st, 2008 at 6:13pm:
Sarge,

you asked the question, what variables?  I answered with a couple of examples. This is not enough apparently and you need more.  OK.  To clarify it better for you, it involves everything from about 5-10 psychological disorders which could affect the accuracy of the test.  For example, clinical depression, psychotic behavior, schizophrenia, etc,.  Physically, I'm referring to well rested, appropriate hygeine, no mental distrators (which could be numerous), etc.

If you think I'm gunna sit here and type out every possible variable because you think you deserve to know, then you are mistaken.  Get over yourself, thinking you deserve an answer. I gave you several examples of variables.  Use your imagination for the rest.

Of course you don't remember discussing them all during your examination.  They are observed in your behaviors, the pre-test interview and direct questioning and answers.  It is the "abnormal" which sticks its ugly head up and causes alarms to go off; not normalacy.  Just because you weren't asked the question related to variables, doesn't mean they were not assessed.

Sackett

P.S.  I thought the "duh" was very appropriate since you already know the answer to the questions you're asking.


No!! God forbid we should expect an answer from you ......
Of course there is no answer cause the variables are unknown and uncontrolable. THATS WHY POLYGRAPHS DO NOT WORK AT DETECTING DECEPTION! Grin


"notguilty1",

you or your few buddies here could ask me a simple question, like what time is it?  I might reply with, well, you posted at 1325hrs, today, but it is 1125hrs here at the time I am posting, therefore it is 1125hrs.  Your reponse would be SEE Sackett can't even answer a simple question like what time it is.

I will never answer any question to your satisfaction.  That's OK.  I'll keep trying to post appropriately and honestly and you'll keep attacking and disecting and trying to find some way to discredit my posts. I get it.  

But remember, I'm not here to change your mind.  It is closed like a steel trap.  I'm hoping to alert those misguided and ignorant examinees of the threats this site presents to their processing and testing, should they choose to believe the diatribe being spilled here.

Sackett  

P.S.  No-one has ever proven to the satisfaction of anyone, the ability of TLBTLD to teach and beat a polygraph examination.  Not even George has used his own teachings to beat a test.  What "student" follows the teaching of an unproven teacher?  Theory, is not proven information and George only hurts those he purports to try to help.  You see, George's intent is to make polygraph obsolete, not help people "protect" themselves.  He will be long deceased before a change in this county's attitude towards polygraph occurs and all this effort will be in vain.  Post on...

 
  
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Re: FALSE syllogism?
Reply #46 - May 22nd, 2008 at 2:58am
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sackett wrote on May 22nd, 2008 at 1:55am:
notguilty1 wrote on May 22nd, 2008 at 1:18am:
sackett wrote on May 21st, 2008 at 6:13pm:
Sarge,

you asked the question, what variables?  I answered with a couple of examples. This is not enough apparently and you need more.  OK.  To clarify it better for you, it involves everything from about 5-10 psychological disorders which could affect the accuracy of the test.  For example, clinical depression, psychotic behavior, schizophrenia, etc,.  Physically, I'm referring to well rested, appropriate hygeine, no mental distrators (which could be numerous), etc.

If you think I'm gunna sit here and type out every possible variable because you think you deserve to know, then you are mistaken.  Get over yourself, thinking you deserve an answer. I gave you several examples of variables.  Use your imagination for the rest.

Of course you don't remember discussing them all during your examination.  They are observed in your behaviors, the pre-test interview and direct questioning and answers.  It is the "abnormal" which sticks its ugly head up and causes alarms to go off; not normalacy.  Just because you weren't asked the question related to variables, doesn't mean they were not assessed.

Sackett

P.S.  I thought the "duh" was very appropriate since you already know the answer to the questions you're asking.


No!! God forbid we should expect an answer from you ......
Of course there is no answer cause the variables are unknown and uncontrolable. THATS WHY POLYGRAPHS DO NOT WORK AT DETECTING DECEPTION! Grin


"notguilty1",

you or your few buddies here could ask me a simple question, like what time is it?  I might reply with, well, you posted at 1325hrs, today, but it is 1125hrs here at the time I am posting, therefore it is 1125hrs.  Your reponse would be SEE Sackett can't even answer a simple question like what time it is.

I will never answer any question to your satisfaction.  That's OK.  I'll keep trying to post appropriately and honestly and you'll keep attacking and disecting and trying to find some way to discredit my posts. I get it.  

But remember, I'm not here to change your mind.  It is closed like a steel trap.  I'm hoping to alert those misguided and ignorant examinees of the threats this site presents to their processing and testing, should they choose to believe the diatribe being spilled here.

Sackett  

P.S.  No-one has ever proven to the satisfaction of anyone, the ability of TLBTLD to teach and beat a polygraph examination.  Not even George has used his own teachings to beat a test.  What "student" follows the teaching of an unproven teacher?  Theory, is not proven information and George only hurts those he purports to try to help.  You see, George's intent is to make polygraph obsolete, not help people "protect" themselves.  He will be long deceased before a change in this county's attitude towards polygraph occurs and all this effort will be in vain.  Post on...
 


Sackett, 
The reason you can't change anyones mind here (or anywere else) is that I (and we) have had the direct experience that Polygraph des not work as cliamed. Any rambling to the contrary from you Sackett will not change that.
As for the P.S. in your post. I never have been on here suggesting that anyone go into a Polygraph and use counter measures to beat the test with the intent of lying.
I am not aware that George suggests that either but, George has a mind of his own and can make his own decisions on that.
Personally, if I had something to hide I would have simply not have taken the test.
Also, if I was applying for a job that reqired me to lie in any part of the process I would not apply for the job. But thats me.
That still however does not explian all the false positives and negatives out there many more than just the "proven" ones, Gary Ridgeway come to mind as one.
Some elusive list of hunders of "variables" that cannot be found anywhere for anyone does not bolster your postion.

  
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Re: FALSE syllogism?
Reply #47 - May 22nd, 2008 at 6:02am
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No-one has ever proven to the satisfaction of anyone, the ability of TLBTLD to teach and beat a polygraph examination.


No-one had ever proven the ability of the polygraph to detect deception.

TC

P.S.  Unfortunately, many of the country's biggest spies and worst psychopathic killers have beaten the test.  Ironically, precisely the type of characters the test was suppose to catch!
  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: FALSE syllogism?
Reply #48 - May 22nd, 2008 at 9:54am
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sackett wrote on May 22nd, 2008 at 1:55am:
P.S.  No-one has ever proven to the satisfaction of anyone, the ability of TLBTLD to teach and beat a polygraph examination.  Not even George has used his own teachings to beat a test.  What "student" follows the teaching of an unproven teacher?  Theory, is not proven information and George only hurts those he purports to try to help.  You see, George's intent is to make polygraph obsolete, not help people "protect" themselves.  He will be long deceased before a change in this county's attitude towards polygraph occurs and all this effort will be in vain.  Post on...


The countermeasure information provided in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector is based in large measure on peer-reviewed research wherein half of test subject who received a maximum of 30 minutes of instruction in such techniques were successful in fooling the polygraph, and even experienced polygraph operators could not detect their countermeasures. Citations with abstracts are provided in TLBTLD, and skeptical readers are encouraged to check these for themselves.

DoDPI/DACA instructor Paul Menges was so satisfied that the countermeasures described in TLBTLD are effective that he went so far as to seriously and publicly suggest that making such information available to the public should be criminalized.

And American Polygraph Association past president Skip Webb was so satisfied that such countermeasures are effective against DACA's new Port-A-Poly that he accused me of treason for publicly explaining how it can be beaten.
  

George W. Maschke
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Re: FALSE syllogism?
Reply #49 - May 22nd, 2008 at 3:08pm
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George W. Maschke wrote on May 22nd, 2008 at 9:54am:
sackett wrote on May 22nd, 2008 at 1:55am:
P.S.  No-one has ever proven to the satisfaction of anyone, the ability of TLBTLD to teach and beat a polygraph examination.  Not even George has used his own teachings to beat a test.  What "student" follows the teaching of an unproven teacher?  Theory, is not proven information and George only hurts those he purports to try to help.  You see, George's intent is to make polygraph obsolete, not help people "protect" themselves.  He will be long deceased before a change in this county's attitude towards polygraph occurs and all this effort will be in vain.  Post on...


The countermeasure information provided in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector is based in large measure on peer-reviewed research wherein half of test subject who received a maximum of 30 minutes of instruction in such techniques were successful in fooling the polygraph, and even experienced polygraph operators could not detect their countermeasures. Citations with abstracts are provided in TLBTLD, and skeptical readers are encouraged to check these for themselves.

DoDPI/DACA instructor Paul Menges was so satisfied that the countermeasures described in TLBTLD are effective that he went so far as to seriously and publicly suggest that making such information available to the public should be criminalized.

And American Polygraph Association past president Skip Webb was so satisfied that such countermeasures are effective against DACA's new Port-A-Poly that he accused me of treason for publicly explaining how it can be beaten.


George,

I am stating that a person, coming into your web site, and reading your material, then beating an examiner has never been proven as viable or even possible.  Receiving 30 minutes of instruction directly form an examiner is very, very different from sitting behind a computer screen and reading information, then successfully using it. 

I have never said an examiner can not be beaten.  But, thanks to sites like yours, its getting easier to catch them.

Sackett
  
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Re: FALSE syllogism?
Reply #50 - May 22nd, 2008 at 3:10pm
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"notguilty1",

you have missed my point. 

I am not trying to change the mind of anyone (on this board).


Sackett
  
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Re: FALSE syllogism?
Reply #51 - May 22nd, 2008 at 8:46pm
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I am stating that a person, coming into your web site, and reading your material, then beating an examiner has never been proven as viable or even possible.


Maybe, but they will a hell of a lot less gullible, naive and subject to the petty intimidation that goes on during a polygraph.

For example, if the examinator gives them the typical "this test is 98% accurate, better get everything off your chest Mr. Applicant.  I am here to help you!" bullshit,  they will know better.

TC
  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
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Re: FALSE syllogism?
Reply #52 - May 23rd, 2008 at 1:31pm
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sackett wrote on May 22nd, 2008 at 3:08pm:
I am stating that a person, coming into your web site, and reading your material, then beating an examiner has never been proven as viable or even possible.

Sackett


Just what type of proof would you be satisfied with?
  

"Although the degree of reliability of polygraph evidence may depend upon a variety of identifiable factors, there is simply no way to know in a particular case whether a polygraph examiner's Conclusion is accurate, because certain doubts and uncertainties plague even the best polygraph exams."  (Justice Clarence Thomas writing in United States v. Scheffer, 523 U.S. 303, 118 S.Ct. 1261, 140 L.Ed.2d 413, 1998.)
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Re: FALSE syllogism?
Reply #53 - May 23rd, 2008 at 3:40pm
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Now we are so far away from anwering my very legitimate and very pointed question.

Sackett,

I came to this place and asked you a very fair question, to which I have not received a vlaid answer.  I feel like some poor schmoo who called tech support and got some guy in India who is trying to help him work his DVR.

I also asked you, quite explicitly, what variables would ahve to be "off kilter" in your opinion, for there to be two different results from a polygraph.

Also, I have read all the posts and have come away with the notion, however odd, that many think it possible that I was lying for my second polygraph.  Now I was lying for BOTH polygraphs or I was telling the Truth.  if your polygraph science is so damned accurate, it should have been able to detect which one was which.

To my mind, that it did not do so, even in just this instance, means that it cannot do so.  This leaves  the conclusion that the polygraph itself is inherently a poor tool, not much better than chance.

Also, the second polygrapher (tho one I failed) never asked me what, if any medications, I was on (at the time, I was on several, including blood pressure medicine) and he did not ask me if I was under stress for any other reason than this charge.

Do you not at least find that a bit disturbing?

I know I do.




  
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Re: FALSE syllogism?
Reply #54 - May 23rd, 2008 at 4:01pm
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sackett wrote on May 22nd, 2008 at 3:08pm:
George W. Maschke wrote on May 22nd, 2008 at 9:54am:
sackett wrote on May 22nd, 2008 at 1:55am:
P.S.  No-one has ever proven to the satisfaction of anyone, the ability of TLBTLD to teach and beat a polygraph examination.  Not even George has used his own teachings to beat a test.  What "student" follows the teaching of an unproven teacher?  Theory, is not proven information and George only hurts those he purports to try to help.  You see, George's intent is to make polygraph obsolete, not help people "protect" themselves.  He will be long deceased before a change in this county's attitude towards polygraph occurs and all this effort will be in vain.  Post on...


The countermeasure information provided in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector is based in large measure on peer-reviewed research wherein half of test subject who received a maximum of 30 minutes of instruction in such techniques were successful in fooling the polygraph, and even experienced polygraph operators could not detect their countermeasures. Citations with abstracts are provided in TLBTLD, and skeptical readers are encouraged to check these for themselves.

DoDPI/DACA instructor Paul Menges was so satisfied that the countermeasures described in TLBTLD are effective that he went so far as to seriously and publicly suggest that making such information available to the public should be criminalized.

And American Polygraph Association past president Skip Webb was so satisfied that such countermeasures are effective against DACA's new Port-A-Poly that he accused me of treason for publicly explaining how it can be beaten.


George,

I am stating that a person, coming into your web site, and reading your material, then beating an examiner has never been proven as viable or even possible.  Receiving 30 minutes of instruction directly form an examiner is very, very different from sitting behind a computer screen and reading information, then successfully using it.  

I have never said an examiner can not be beaten.  But, thanks to sites like yours, its getting easier to catch them.

Sackett


Dear Sackett,

Two Questions

If an examinee bites his tongue when answering every Comparison question (unseen), how would you pick up on that in the tracings?

How accurate is the tongue biting CM? ie, what % of efficacy might it produce ?

your response is eagerly awaited.


  
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Re: FALSE syllogism?
Reply #55 - May 23rd, 2008 at 4:32pm
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polytechnic,

George is the self reported "go-to" man on countermeasures.  I am sure he read somewhere, something about it and could answer your question.  

As a matter of personal policy, I do not openly discuss specific actions or countermeasure activity or their efficacy.


Sackett
  
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Re: FALSE syllogism?
Reply #56 - May 23rd, 2008 at 4:38pm
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TheKaisho wrote on May 23rd, 2008 at 3:40pm:
Now we are so far away from anwering my very legitimate and very pointed question.

Sackett,

I came to this place and asked you a very fair question, to which I have not received a vlaid answer.  I feel like some poor schmoo who called tech support and got some guy in India who is trying to help him work his DVR.

I also asked you, quite explicitly, what variables would ahve to be "off kilter" in your opinion, for there to be two different results from a polygraph.

Also, I have read all the posts and have come away with the notion, however odd, that many think it possible that I was lying for my second polygraph.  Now I was lying for BOTH polygraphs or I was telling the Truth.  if your polygraph science is so damned accurate, it should have been able to detect which one was which.

To my mind, that it did not do so, even in just this instance, means that it cannot do so.  This leaves  the conclusion that the polygraph itself is inherently a poor tool, not much better than chance.

Also, the second polygrapher (tho one I failed) never asked me what, if any medications, I was on (at the time, I was on several, including blood pressure medicine) and he did not ask me if I was under stress for any other reason than this charge.

Do you not at least find that a bit disturbing?

I know I do.



TheKaisho,

much to the frustration of another, I have covered the "variables" issue sufficiently.   I can not answer for your examiner's behaviors or lack of proper pre-test, if that is in fact the case. 

And, I do (according to your post) find it disturbing that your health was not addressed during your pre-test.  It is a crucial aspect of determining suitability.

Sackett
  
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Re: FALSE syllogism?
Reply #57 - May 23rd, 2008 at 6:43pm
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TheKaisho

Finally. we (you) must ponder the deeper question of how accurate a lie test ought to be for particular applications.  If one is hiring policemen or CIA operatives, then perhaps any additional clues, any improvement over chance at all might be worthwhile.  These are senstive positions in which the wrong person can do a great deal of mischief, and it may be in the public interest to use a screening procedure that reduces the number of undesirable candidates hired, even if this means excluding also a large number of perfectly acceptable, wrongly called Deceptive by the test.    David Thorsen Lykken   A Tremor in the Blood  p.64

I guess he changed his mind about this too.






  

No good social purpose can be served by inventing ways of beating the lie detector or deceiving polygraphers.   David Thoreson Lykken
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Re: FALSE syllogism?
Reply #58 - May 23rd, 2008 at 7:00pm
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Kaisho,

You are correct.  The logical answer to you question is that the test is simply not accurate.  And you will never get a polygrapher to admit that. 

TC
  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
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Re: FALSE syllogism?
Reply #59 - May 24th, 2008 at 11:31am
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pailryder wrote on May 23rd, 2008 at 6:43pm:
TheKaisho

Finally. we (you) must ponder the deeper question of how accurate a lie test ought to be for particular applications.  If one is hiring policemen or CIA operatives, then perhaps any additional clues, any improvement over chance at all might be worthwhile.  These are senstive positions in which the wrong person can do a great deal of mischief, and it may be in the public interest to use a screening procedure that reduces the number of undesirable candidates hired, even if this means excluding also a large number of perfectly acceptable, wrongly called Deceptive by the test.    David Thorsen Lykken   A Tremor in the Blood  p.64

I guess he changed his mind about this too.


pailryder,

You've cherry-picked a quote to make it appear that David Lykken supported polygraph screening. He most certainly did not. Concluding his chapter on "Preemployment Screening by the FBI and Other Federal Agencies" (Chapter 15 of the 2nd edition of A Tremor in the Blood), Lykken writes:

Quote:
I think it is now obvious that polygraph testing has failed to screen out from our intelligence agencies potential traitors and moles. On the contrary, it seems to have served as a shield for such people who, having passed the polygraph, become immune to commonsense suspicions. And it is certainly obvious that polygraph testing has been screening out some of the very kinds of people one would most want to see placed in positions of trust: conscientious people like Major C, Elizabeth M., John Tillson, Michael Pillsbury, and Col. McFarlane--highly socialized people who seem to be especially vulnerable to false positive mistakes.
  

George W. Maschke
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