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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Mr. Mascke's Act of Treason (Read 17882 times)
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Re: Mr. Mascke's Act of Treason
Reply #15 - Apr 19th, 2008 at 3:00am
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C'mon, I would like to believe you aren't THAT stupid.  I have no doubt you are fully aware the act of treason in this case, is not in any opinion voiced by George or anyone else.  It is in the collection, analysis, production, and deliberate dissemination of U.S. intelligence information by Mr. Maschke to a website he himself has stated is frequently read by the enemies of our country...


So put up or shut up.  Make a call to the FBI, let them investigate.  Then I am sure GM will let us in on the final outcome.

Is there any reason to believe that FBI agents have any more faith in the polygraph then us False-positive have?  They are probably more aware than any of us of the unreliability of the test, and wouldn't take the results of some "Port-a-poly (potty?)" on a suspected terrorist anyway!
  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

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Re: Mr. Mascke's Act of Treason
Reply #16 - Apr 19th, 2008 at 7:31am
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T.M.,

I think "port-a-poly" is a very apt nickname for the "Preliminary Credibility Assessment Screening System!"

Smiley
  

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Re: Mr. Mascke's Act of Treason
Reply #17 - Apr 19th, 2008 at 8:35am
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What George essentially did was warn the troops using this equipment that it is not accurate and that they should not rely upon it.  It is too easily defeated by countermeasures, and even without countermeasures it is not accurate or reliable.

If the military had been issued mine detectors that didn’t work, or that worked sixty percent of the time, would George be acting in a treasonous manner by warning service members not to rely on their new mine detectors?

It sounds like the pro-polygraph people are trying to claim it would be better if the U.S. military could have operated under the assumption that none of their enemies were capable of successfully defeating the handheld polygraph.

Now that the service members know how easy it is for the enemy to defeat the handheld polygraph, are those service members in a better or worse position?  Now that they know a terrorist could plant a bomb and then easily pass the “lie detector” test, are they likely to be safer or in more dire jeopardy?  

The information George posted is not classified, and is freely available to anyone who chooses to look for it.  It is ridiculous to assume that were it not for this web site no one on the planet would have any idea that polygraph countermeasures exist, must less be able to read anything about how to use them.

If a soldier on the ground in Iraq, puzzled because he or she was getting results from their “lie detector” that flew in the face of reason and logic, had done a little research and then posted the exact same information on the Internet, does anyone believe that soldier would be accused of treason?  Would a soldier warning others how easy it is for anyone to defeat the “lie detector” so that no one puts their lives or anyone else’s lives in danger through reliance on a test that can be so easily defeated or confounded be considered as working against U.S. interests?  I think not.

Suppose the Department of Defense issued instructions to question a terrorist and then watch their eyes when they answered, because if they look to the right you will know they are constructing a lie.  If someone like George posted that anyone aware of that technique can easily control his or her reaction and render the test worthless, therefore the test should not be relied upon, would he be acting irresponsibly then?  Would he be committing treason by warning service members not to rely on the results of such an easily defeated test?  Again, I think not.

  

Lorsque vous utilisez un argumentum ad hominem, tout le monde sait que vous ętes intellectuellement faillite.
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Re: Mr. Mascke's Act of Treason
Reply #18 - Apr 19th, 2008 at 9:28am
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I think they are basically putting economics (their industry) before security (how ironic) and the safety of the troops.

TC
  

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Re: Mr. Mascke's Act of Treason
Reply #19 - Apr 19th, 2008 at 2:29pm
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Hmmmmm. Anyone notice how many hits an "attempt to trash George" thread brings? Anyone think at least 90% of those hits are polygraphers? Anyone think, when these threads appear, the poster sends out a net APB directed to his brethern and sistern saying "Check out anti-poly site. I just trashed George" ?Hmmmmmmm !! ??
  
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Re: Mr. Mascke's Act of Treason
Reply #20 - Apr 19th, 2008 at 4:57pm
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twoblock,

90% of the people on this board are polygraph examiners....duh?! Roll Eyes

Sackett
  
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Re: Mr. Mascke's Act of Treason
Reply #21 - Apr 20th, 2008 at 7:53am
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Twoblock,

While a good many polygraphers do regularly visit AntiPolygraph.org, the unusually large number of views associated some message threads is typically the result of their having been linked to on other websites. For example, the thread about PCASS's vulnerability to countermeasures is presently linked to at Cryptome.org.
  

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Re: Mr. Mascke's Act of Treason
Reply #22 - Apr 21st, 2008 at 6:02am
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Polygraphers don't give a damn about ruining people's lives; why would they give a damn about ending people's lives with their grandiose claims?  They make more money the more people believe that the polygraph is as awesome as they say.  So what if a bunch of people in the army (probably not good enough to be real polygraphers!) get killed?

Polygrapher math:  Other people dying + money for you = a great deal! (Just be sure to cloak yourself in self righteousness)
  

Is former APA President Skip Webb evil or just stupid?

Is former APA President Ed Gelb an idiot or does the polygraph just not work?

Did you know that polygrapher Sackett doesn't care about detecting deception to relevant questions?
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Re: Mr. Mascke's Act of Treason
Reply #23 - May 29th, 2008 at 9:56pm
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I'm way late to this thread. Based on the last post, PCASS is probably considered old hat, and no doubt some new device is claiming to discern truth based on leeching, or maybe phrenology.
I believe in the ap.org mission, but something bothered me when I read the entries in this thread: None of you seemed concerned about how Arabs could face wrongful conviction based on faulty PCASS results. I just feel like this is an embarrassing omission considering your vehemence regarding a polygraph's many failures and your advocacy of the falsely accused.
Yes, American soldiers would face danger of letting enemies slip by. They also face a danger of condemning the innocent. Please consider ALL victims of a broken system.
Lethe, that seems a bit extreme. Polygraphers aren't bloodsoaked death-dealers; they're just misguided. Some probably don't care if it's true or not, and it's messed up, but still--it doesn't seem like effective argument just to heap exaggerations against them.
  
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Re: Mr. Mascke's Act of Treason
Reply #24 - May 30th, 2008 at 3:48am
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I'm way late to this thread. Based on the last post, PCASS is probably considered old hat, and no doubt some new device is claiming to discern truth based on leeching, or maybe phrenology.
I believe in the ap.org mission, but something bothered me when I read the entries in this thread: None of you seemed concerned about how Arabs could face wrongful conviction based on faulty PCASS results. I just feel like this is an embarrassing omission considering your vehemence regarding a polygraph's many failures and your advocacy of the falsely accused.
Yes, American soldiers would face danger of letting enemies slip by. They also face a danger of condemning the innocent. Please consider ALL victims of a broken system.
Lethe, that seems a bit extreme. Polygraphers aren't bloodsoaked death-dealers; they're just misguided. Some probably don't care if it's true or not, and it's messed up, but still--it doesn't seem like effective argument just to heap exaggerations against them.


Arabs being wrongly convicted of what?  As I understand it, the use of PCASS is to determine who the US military was to give (more) belief and trust to; not as a means of convicting anyone of anything. Iraq/Afghanistan has not given up their autonomy and we are not an occupying colonialist power.

I do appreciate the fact you do not see us as blood soaked death dealers.  I guess that is a step up from what some have called us... Smiley

Sackett
  
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Re: Mr. Mascke's Act of Treason
Reply #25 - May 30th, 2008 at 5:12am
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I'm way late to this thread. Based on the last post, PCASS is probably considered old hat, and no doubt some new device is claiming to discern truth based on leeching, or maybe phrenology.
I believe in the ap.org mission, but something bothered me when I read the entries in this thread: None of you seemed concerned about how Arabs could face wrongful conviction based on faulty PCASS results. I just feel like this is an embarrassing omission considering your vehemence regarding a polygraph's many failures and your advocacy of the falsely accused.
Yes, American soldiers would face danger of letting enemies slip by. They also face a danger of condemning the innocent. Please consider ALL victims of a broken system.
Lethe, that seems a bit extreme. Polygraphers aren't bloodsoaked death-dealers; they're just misguided. Some probably don't care if it's true or not, and it's messed up, but still--it doesn't seem like effective argument just to heap exaggerations against them.


As I mentioned in another thread about the Preliminary Credibility Assessment Screening System,  I am deeply concerned that a red light on the Port-A-Poly could become a green light for "enhanced interrogation techniques," the U.S. Government's euphemism for torture.

I don't know whether the PCASS is actually being used in the field, but I have yet to see any indication that it has been shelved. As mentioned on the blog, the Defense Academy for Credibility Assessment (DACA) sent an instructor to Afghanistan in late April of this year to train soldiers in the use of the PCASS. That instructor (James Waller) seems himself to be deeply deluded about the PCASS's capabilities, telling a reporter, "Red means the subject was dishonest and lying to the security questions; green means they passed the test; yellow means the device did not get enough information to make a call so we need to rerun the test."

No reliance of any kind should be made on the color-coded blinkings of DACA's "traffic light of truth."
« Last Edit: May 30th, 2008 at 8:24am by George W. Maschke »  

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Re: Mr. Mascke's Act of Treason
Reply #26 - Jun 7th, 2008 at 12:31am
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I still don't see how polygraphers can accuse George of treason while still being consistent with their other statements.  It seems to me that they are making two sets of statements and that it is not possible for both to be true at the same time.
    (1) The PCASS is (a) highly accurate and (b) very difficult, if not practically impossible, to beat.  AND
    (2) George is giving aid and comfort to the enemy by saying that (a) the PCASS is not accurate and (b) it can be beaten relatively easily by doing such-and-such

Now, if (1)(a) is true, that it is very accurate, how is it treason to falsely say that it is not accurate?  That's not giving aid to the enemy, though it might give them some false comfort--until they find out just how accurate it really is.  I could elaborate on this, but I think it's pretty obvious that that would not rise to the level of treason.  It'd be a much greater encouragement to insurgents to think that our military will pull out of the country shortly, but people who advocate a quick withdraw aren't traitors.

And if statement (1)(b) is true, that the PCASS can't be easily defeated, then the information that George is providing is not aiding the enemy since the information is invalid.  Maybe it might encourage them to think they can defeat the great satan's silly toys, but following the information, if it is false--as you claim it is--will hinder, not help them.

I don't see how it is possible to say that George is committing treason under any reasonable definition of the term (and if a definition would make a large percentage of the American population traitors it is almost certainly not reasonable) unless the information he is providing and disseminating about (a) the accuracy of the PCASS and/or (b) it's ability to be defeated, in general, and in particular by the methods he also provides.

Am I going wrong someplace?  Can someone explain how he is giving aid and/or comfort to the enemy if his claims about PCASS accuracy and susceptibility are false?
  

Is former APA President Skip Webb evil or just stupid?

Is former APA President Ed Gelb an idiot or does the polygraph just not work?

Did you know that polygrapher Sackett doesn't care about detecting deception to relevant questions?
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Re: Mr. Mascke's Act of Treason
Reply #27 - Jun 7th, 2008 at 5:32am
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     Hi,

  The answer to your question is simple in that under the law   ATTEMPTS COUNT, regardless of the success of the attempt or not.  Your guy Maschke crossed the line when he went "In League" with the enemies of the USA.  Having an opinion of one thing, translating CM's into the language of the enemy, despite what they have done on their own, crosses over the line.  He has an obsession with this issue, lost perspective, and I suppose time will show what happens to traitors.  Let's all just sit back and watch the show !!!!   Wink  It always ends badly for the guy in the black hat like GM.
  
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Re: Mr. Mascke's Act of Treason
Reply #28 - Jun 7th, 2008 at 6:40am
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The answer to your question is simple in that under the law   ATTEMPTS COUNT, regardless of the success of the attempt or not.  Your guy Maschke crossed the line when he went "In League" with the enemies of the USA.  Having an opinion of one thing, translating CM's into the language of the enemy, despite what they have done on their own, crosses over the line.  He has an obsession with this issue, lost perspective, and I suppose time will show what happens to traitors.  Let's all just sit back and watch the show !!!!   Wink  It always ends badly for the guy in the black hat like GM.


Another feeble attempt by an anonymous coward to slander GM.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!
  

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Re: Mr. Mascke's Act of Treason
Reply #29 - Jun 7th, 2008 at 3:10pm
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The answer to your question is simple in that under the law   ATTEMPTS COUNT, regardless of the success of the attempt or not.  Your guy Maschke crossed the line when he went "In League" with the enemies of the USA.  Having an opinion of one thing, translating CM's into the language of the enemy, despite what they have done on their own, crosses over the line.  He has an obsession with this issue, lost perspective, and I suppose time will show what happens to traitors.  Let's all just sit back and watch the show !!!!   Wink  It always ends badly for the guy in the black hat like GM. 


Okay, so your argument is that George is attempting to give aid and comfort to the enemy.  That is, the main purpose of his two acts (saying the PCASS is not accurate and that it can be beaten by such-and-such a method) is to help the enemy.  I don't think that claim withstands any scrutiny.

Examining all of George's actions, I don't think you could come to any conclusion other than that George is motivated by a desire to end the widespread use of the polygraph as it is now used.  As he advocates doing this through purely legal, non-violent means, his pursuit of this goal is perfectly legal and protected by the first amendment.  I think it'd even be reasonable to say that George thinks that, far from hurting U.S. security and interests, eliminating the dependence on the polygraph as it is now used would enhance U.S. security. 

Now, you can absolutely argue those two points and say that the way the polygraph is now used is great and must be continued and that changing it at all would damage U.S. security.  But I see no evidence whatsoever that George wants to do anything that he believes would hurt America and/or help terrorists.  So, you can say that the effect of his actions would be to hurt the U.S., but you can't say (unless you have an argument that hasn't occurred to me, in which case please share it) that that is his intent.

Basically, you can argue that an act is immoral either because of (1) the effect of that act or (2) the motives behind the act.  So far as the PCASS is concerned, you can't argue that George's actions will be harmful unless you admit that he is right about how inaccurate it is and/or how easy it is to beat.  And I don't see how you can argue that his motive is to hurt the United States and/or help terrorists.  But if you want to try, please do so.

Also, you say that he has "translat[ed] CM's into the language of the enemy."  Perhaps you are referring to the Al Qaeda manual that George translated from "the language of the enemy" into English?  If so, you need to be careful not to base your arguments on inaccurate information.  If not, I'd appreciate knowing what you are referring to.
  

Is former APA President Skip Webb evil or just stupid?

Is former APA President Ed Gelb an idiot or does the polygraph just not work?

Did you know that polygrapher Sackett doesn't care about detecting deception to relevant questions?
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