Hot Topic (More than 15 Replies) DNA v. Polygraph (Read 7338 times)
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DNA v. Polygraph
Apr 3rd, 2008 at 4:14pm
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NEW YORK TIMES

April 3, 2008
The DNA Age
Lawyers Fight DNA Samples Gained on Sly
By AMY HARMON
The two Sacramento sheriff detectives tailed their suspect, Rolando Gallego, at a distance. They did not have a court order to compel him to give a DNA sample, but their assignment was to get one anyway — without his knowledge.
Recently, the sheriff's cold case unit had extracted a DNA profile from blood on a towel found 15 years earlier at the scene of the murder of Mr. Gallego's aunt. If his DNA matched, they believed they would finally be able to close the case.
On that spring day in 2006, the detectives watched as Mr. Gallego lit a cigarette, smoked it and threw away the butt. That was all they needed.
The practice, known among law enforcement officials as "surreptitious sampling," is growing in popularity even as defense lawyers and civil liberties advocates argue that it violates a constitutional right to privacy. Mr. Gallego's trial on murder charges, scheduled for next month, is the latest of several in which the defense argues that the police circumvented the Fourth Amendment protection against unreasonable search and seizure. . . .

. . . . They could have asked a judge for a search warrant to compel him to give them a DNA swab, but there was no guarantee that the judge would agree. Also, Mr. Gallego had passed a lie detector test in which he denied any involvement in the murder, and had they asked him to volunteer a sample, he might have refused.
  

"Although the degree of reliability of polygraph evidence may depend upon a variety of identifiable factors, there is simply no way to know in a particular case whether a polygraph examiner's Conclusion is accurate, because certain doubts and uncertainties plague even the best polygraph exams."  (Justice Clarence Thomas writing in United States v. Scheffer, 523 U.S. 303, 118 S.Ct. 1261, 140 L.Ed.2d 413, 1998.)
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Re: DNA v. Polygraph
Reply #1 - Apr 3rd, 2008 at 7:10pm
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stop jumping the gun!  Just because he took a test and passed it, and now the detectives think he really did it; DOES NOT MEAN HE DID IT!

Wait for the DNA results to come out and charges be preferred before trying to make a lame/weak connection to the offense and a possible false negative...

Sackett
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: DNA v. Polygraph
Reply #2 - Apr 3rd, 2008 at 7:54pm
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Sackett,

The DNA did match, charges were proffered, and the case is slated to go to trial next month. See the attached PDF of the full article, which includes more detail.
  

George W. Maschke
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Re: DNA v. Polygraph
Reply #3 - Apr 3rd, 2008 at 10:12pm
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sackett wrote on Apr 3rd, 2008 at 7:10pm:
stop jumping the gun!  Just because he took a test and passed it, and now the detectives think he really did it; DOES NOT MEAN HE DID IT!

Wait for the DNA results to come out and charges be preferred before trying to make a lame/weak connection to the offense and a possible false negative...

Sackett


You are a piece of work, sackett...
  

"Although the degree of reliability of polygraph evidence may depend upon a variety of identifiable factors, there is simply no way to know in a particular case whether a polygraph examiner's Conclusion is accurate, because certain doubts and uncertainties plague even the best polygraph exams."  (Justice Clarence Thomas writing in United States v. Scheffer, 523 U.S. 303, 118 S.Ct. 1261, 140 L.Ed.2d 413, 1998.)
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Re: DNA v. Polygraph
Reply #4 - Apr 3rd, 2008 at 11:57pm
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George W. Maschke wrote on Apr 3rd, 2008 at 7:54pm:
Sackett,

The DNA did match, charges were proffered, and the case is slated to go to trial next month. See the attached PDF of the full article, which includes more detail.



Sakett, You must be really getting full after eating all that crow!!!
WOW he passed a Poly but DNA matched the evidence at the scene!!
See you would have him free since he passed your silly test.
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box T.M. Cullen
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Re: DNA v. Polygraph
Reply #5 - Apr 4th, 2008 at 12:23am
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This is similar to our pal TNLG testing a convicted murderer in balkans who happened to passed the test, and now they use  to say the guy he should be freed.  Vat rubbish is polygraph:

Quote:


Was there evidence or not?

No?  then they should be freed regardless of some stupid test.

Yes? Then let them rott in jail, regarless of some stupid test.

Maybe Mr. Coffey can clue us in.  Oh, sorry, forget.  He gone.

  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
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Re: DNA v. Polygraph
Reply #6 - Apr 4th, 2008 at 2:25am
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"n.p.c.",

Cute!  When you made the original post, did you know the results of the DNA test and the charges preferred?  No diversion from that sad fact, but what about the 4,000 other polygraph examinations that were properly administered that day?  No, let's not bring that up...

I concede that examiners make mistakes.  No-one here does, though.

OK, chalk one up for you guys.  

George, think you get the test report, charts, test questions, etc?  

Boys and Girls, enough gloating.  Everyone, go back to defending the poor false positives and NOW, attacking the false negatives.

Sackett
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box T.M. Cullen
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Re: DNA v. Polygraph
Reply #7 - Apr 4th, 2008 at 3:16am
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Quote:
I concede that examiners make mistakes.  No-one here does, though.


People processing HIV tests make mistakes too.  But that is a valid, reliable test.

So the important question is whether or not the polygraph is a valid and reliable test (and it's not).  Not whether people make mistakes.  They do.

Imagine an HIV test in which for every person testing "positive" that actually had HIV, there were a hundred or so who tested "positive" WHO DO NOT HAVE HIV!

Furthermore, suppose with this test, that actual HIV carriers taking the test routinely TESTED NEGATIVE.  And continued to run around infecting the public.

Would you defend that test?
  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
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Re: DNA v. Polygraph
Reply #8 - Apr 4th, 2008 at 3:27am
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sackett wrote on Apr 4th, 2008 at 2:25am:
"n.p.c.",

Cute!  When you made the original post, did you know the results of the DNA test and the charges preferred?

I concede that examiners make mistakes.  

Sackett


Let's see... I quoted the material verbatim from the whole story, so as not to make the post overly lengthy.  If I could copy and paste the material I did, one might realistically presume that I in fact read the whole story.  Critical thinking would not be a strong point of yours, would it?

BTW, I didn't go looking for this story, it came to me over e-mail on my law school alumini Yahoo group.  I found the information about the polygraph interesting so I posted the story.  That's all.

Regarding polygraphers making mistakes, I personally doubt the polygrapher made a mistake, but instead relied upon a flawed process to form an opinion as to culpability for a murder.  It is a good thing the detectives didn't trust the polygraph results, and continued looking at the suspect as good for the murder.
  

"Although the degree of reliability of polygraph evidence may depend upon a variety of identifiable factors, there is simply no way to know in a particular case whether a polygraph examiner's Conclusion is accurate, because certain doubts and uncertainties plague even the best polygraph exams."  (Justice Clarence Thomas writing in United States v. Scheffer, 523 U.S. 303, 118 S.Ct. 1261, 140 L.Ed.2d 413, 1998.)
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Re: DNA v. Polygraph
Reply #9 - Apr 4th, 2008 at 3:40am
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Hmmm.

So Sacket would give the benefit of doubt to a murderer, so long as he passed a polygraph.

And brand an innocent person guilty, so long as he/she fails a polygraph.

Makes sense.  Poly-sense, that is.....


TC
« Last Edit: Apr 4th, 2008 at 4:03am by T.M. Cullen »  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
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Re: DNA v. Polygraph
Reply #10 - Apr 4th, 2008 at 4:09am
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"n.p.c.",

so you did; I missed it.  Please (try to) understand, I actually have a job that keeps me very busy and sometimes I do not read as detailed as I could.  This is often due to time restrictions.   Remember, this board is a secondary interest, not my priority, as it is with some of you.  

As for Gallego's test, perhaps the test was flawed.  Perhaps it was a well run examination and Gallego was able to rationalize the questions.  Maybe, Gallego wasn't asked the right questions.  Maybe, he didn't do it.  

Also, remember, DNA represents presence, not guilt or innocence.  Or maybe, just maybe, Gallego used the techniques outlined in TLBTLD to "beat" the examiner?!  It suprises me that no-one has made that particular claim.  You see, that is exactly what this board is all about, now isn't it?  Helping criminals, sex offenders and applicants "beat" the process...

Speaking of culpability; does that mean if a murderer does in fact use the information on this board to "beat" the test, that this board is then complicit in aiding and abetting the felon?  Just a thought...

Sackett

  
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Re: DNA v. Polygraph
Reply #11 - Apr 4th, 2008 at 4:23am
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sackett wrote on Apr 4th, 2008 at 4:09am:
"n.p.c.",


As for Gallego's test, perhaps the test was flawed.  Perhaps it was a well run examination and Gallego was able to rationalize the questions.  Maybe, Gallego wasn't asked the right questions.  Maybe, he didn't do it.  

Also, remember, DNA represents presence, not guilt or innocence.  Or maybe, just maybe, Gallego used the techniques outlined in TLBTLD to "beat" the examiner?!  

Speaking of culpability; does that mean if a murderer does in fact use the information on this board to "beat" the test, that this board is then complicit in aiding and abetting the felon?  Just a thought...

Sackett



In the first paragraph, you list 4 variables which can effect the results of a polygraph.  Because of these variables, a polygraph test is not sufficiently reliable to depend upon to establish guilt or innocence, nor truthful or deceptive.

In  your second paragraph, you add the possibility of effective use of countermeasures, at least one additional variable if not a host of variables.

Lastly, your third paragraph opines that this board is culpable for murder if a murder uses information gained here to pass a polygraph.  I suppose the same question be asked of the polygrapher who passes a murderer, who then goes out and commits additional murders.  (Gary Ridgway comes to mind).  No, Sackett, the murderer is culpable for murder.  The polygrapher and GM must live with the consequences of their acts.
  

"Although the degree of reliability of polygraph evidence may depend upon a variety of identifiable factors, there is simply no way to know in a particular case whether a polygraph examiner's Conclusion is accurate, because certain doubts and uncertainties plague even the best polygraph exams."  (Justice Clarence Thomas writing in United States v. Scheffer, 523 U.S. 303, 118 S.Ct. 1261, 140 L.Ed.2d 413, 1998.)
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Re: DNA v. Polygraph
Reply #12 - Apr 4th, 2008 at 7:41am
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sackett wrote on Apr 4th, 2008 at 2:25am:
 No diversion from that sad fact, but what about the 4,000 other polygraph examinations that were properly administered that day?  No, let's not bring that up...


If there were 4,000 other polygraph exams conducted that day, what makes you think they were all "properly adminstered"?

How can you possibly have any idea in what percentage of those tests a truthful person was deemed deceptive, and/or a deceptive person was deemed truthful?  Do you truly believe that out of 4,000 tests there wasn't a single false positive or false negative?  

It seems that if someone fails a polygraph and claims they were telling the truth, their feedback is ignored by the polygraph industry because, clearly, if they were telling the truth they would have passed.  It is abundantly clear that personal accounts from people who say they told the truth and failed are given no weight at all by the pro-polygraph crowd.

If a person lies and gets away with it, their feedback would itself be deceptive, because they certainly aren't going to turn to the examiner who just "passed" them and admit they lied during their test.  I'm sure every polygraph examiner is fully aware that there is virtually no chance of something like that ever happening.

So, exactly what feedback is the polygraph industry receiving that enables you to confidently assume that the 4,000 other polygraph tests conducted that day were properly administered?
  

Lorsque vous utilisez un argumentum ad hominem, tout le monde sait que vous êtes intellectuellement faillite.
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Re: DNA v. Polygraph
Reply #13 - Apr 4th, 2008 at 3:53pm
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sackett wrote on Apr 4th, 2008 at 4:09am:
" Or maybe, just maybe, Gallego used the techniques outlined in TLBTLD to "beat" the examiner?!  It suprises me that no-one has made that particular claim.  You see, that is exactly what this board is all about, now isn't it?  Helping criminals, sex offenders and applicants "beat" the process...
Sackett



I'll go ahead and address your hyperbole too.

I don't see this board as existing to help anyone "beat" the process.  the board exists, as I understand it, to  serve as a catalyst to get the polygraph process removed from the screening process for LE and National Security employment.  Please correct me if I am wrong, GM.

Now, that begs the question, though.  If someone can read material on the internet, and then use that material to "beat" a polygraph test, doesn't that speak volumes about the nature of the polygraph test, and how easily the process is subverted?  If countermeasures didn't work, why is the polygraph community so concerned about them?  Why the butt pad?



  

"Although the degree of reliability of polygraph evidence may depend upon a variety of identifiable factors, there is simply no way to know in a particular case whether a polygraph examiner's Conclusion is accurate, because certain doubts and uncertainties plague even the best polygraph exams."  (Justice Clarence Thomas writing in United States v. Scheffer, 523 U.S. 303, 118 S.Ct. 1261, 140 L.Ed.2d 413, 1998.)
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Re: DNA v. Polygraph
Reply #14 - Apr 4th, 2008 at 4:55pm
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Sergeant1107 wrote on Apr 4th, 2008 at 7:41am:
sackett wrote on Apr 4th, 2008 at 2:25am:
 No diversion from that sad fact, but what about the 4,000 other polygraph examinations that were properly administered that day?  No, let's not bring that up...


If there were 4,000 other polygraph exams conducted that day, what makes you think they were all "properly adminstered"?

How can you possibly have any idea in what percentage of those tests a truthful person was deemed deceptive, and/or a deceptive person was deemed truthful?  Do you truly believe that out of 4,000 tests there wasn't a single false positive or false negative?  

It seems that if someone fails a polygraph and claims they were telling the truth, their feedback is ignored by the polygraph industry because, clearly, if they were telling the truth they would have passed.  It is abundantly clear that personal accounts from people who say they told the truth and failed are given no weight at all by the pro-polygraph crowd.

If a person lies and gets away with it, their feedback would itself be deceptive, because they certainly aren't going to turn to the examiner who just "passed" them and admit they lied during their test.  I'm sure every polygraph examiner is fully aware that there is virtually no chance of something like that ever happening.

So, exactly what feedback is the polygraph industry receiving that enables you to confidently assume that the 4,000 other polygraph tests conducted that day were properly administered?


What makes you think those tests administered that day were not done properly?  Simple and repetitive whining on this board does not make what you support true in every circumstance.  

Mistakes are made.  Even in DNA, drug, polygraph testing, etc.  Nothing is absolute when humans are involved.  But to suggest that everything is all "a-whack" because you think so, or because of one recent example, doesn't hold water.

Sackett
  
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DNA v. Polygraph

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