Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Video and/or Sound Recording of Polygraphs (Read 28644 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Fair Chance
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 551
Joined: Oct 10th, 2002
Video and/or Sound Recording of Polygraphs
Mar 22nd, 2008 at 3:12am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Readers,

A thread was started many moons ago about the recording of polygraph operations.  This could be audio only or video and audio.  I believe a recording would have avoided what I went through because at a minimum, it showed obvious violations of "accepted polygraph procedures."

Now before anyone jumps on my case, I am not saying that polygraph procedures are accurate or acceptable per se.  I am reaching out to examinees and examiners.

Would you or do you have a concern with recording of such examinations as to defend the use of polygraphs and justify their results?  As an examinee, would you have a problem with the exam being recorded?

There seems to be no movement by examiners or government to go in this direction but I see little reason not to personally.

Pros and cons, let's hear them.

Regards.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box sackett
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 347
Joined: Jan 31st, 2008
Re: Video and/or Sound Recording of Polygraphs
Reply #1 - Mar 22nd, 2008 at 4:23am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Fair Chance,

there has been an effort to mandate recording of polygraph examinations.  The ASTM has recently updated its standard to require recordings in order to be within the published standards.

On the other hand, many states, local jurisdictions and most federal agencies prohibit recording of interviews.  I don't know why.  I think it is more a management/policy issue than an individual examiner issue.  But, it is being looked at.  

I, as well as many other ethical examiners believe in recording examinations.  It protects the examinee and examiner alike.  

For the record, I record all examinations, in their entirety. Thanks for bringing this topic up for discussion.

Sackett
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box T.M. Cullen
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 858
Location: Hawaii
Joined: Dec 5th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: Video and/or Sound Recording of Polygraphs
Reply #2 - Mar 22nd, 2008 at 9:27am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Quote:
I, as well as many other ethical examiners believe in recording examinations.  It protects the examinee and examiner alike. 


That's strange, you stated in a post awhile back that you are against the test subject recording a test, since it could be used against the examiner.

TC
  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box sackett
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 347
Joined: Jan 31st, 2008
Re: Video and/or Sound Recording of Polygraphs
Reply #3 - Mar 22nd, 2008 at 2:24pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
T.M. Cullen wrote on Mar 22nd, 2008 at 9:27am:
Quote:
I, as well as many other ethical examiners believe in recording examinations.  It protects the examinee and examiner alike.  


That's strange, you stated in a post awhile back that you are against the test subject recording a test, since it could be used against the examiner.

TC


No, go back an re-read it.  I said; I am against the examinee recording tests, because once the test is over and the examinee leaves, there is no control over the dissemination of the recording or any effort to ensure that it is used in a responsible manner.

Many things happen in a polygraph that the untrained, ignorant layman would not, on the surface of the process, understand (not unlike many on this board).  Snipits and sound bites taken from an examination could very well be used unethically in order to sway opinion on an issue; UNLIKE the examiner who records examinations for later use by legal, administrative or judicial authority.

Sackett
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box T.M. Cullen
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 858
Location: Hawaii
Joined: Dec 5th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: Video and/or Sound Recording of Polygraphs
Reply #4 - Mar 22nd, 2008 at 6:11pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Quote:
No, go back an re-read it.  I said; I am against the examinee recording tests, because once the test is over and the examinee leaves, there is no control over the dissemination of the recording or any effort to ensure that it is used in a responsible manner.


Polygraphers are capable of the very same thing.   

Quote:
Many things happen in a polygraph that the untrained, ignorant layman would not, on the surface of the process, understand (not unlike many on this board).  Snipits and sound bites taken from an examination could very well be used unethically in order to sway opinion on an issue; UNLIKE the examiner who records examinations for later use by legal, administrative or judicial authority.


TRANSLATION:  We don't want the "shenanigans" pulled by us polygraphers exposed to the public.  We have something to "hide".

  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box sackett
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 347
Joined: Jan 31st, 2008
Re: Video and/or Sound Recording of Polygraphs
Reply #5 - Mar 22nd, 2008 at 7:58pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Mr Cullen,

1st part:  improbable but true.  But, examiners do not have the same intent or motive.  Our desire would be to present the whole test with an explanation of the process, not just soundbites taken out of context for the purposes of swaying the opinion of the listener.

2nd part:  Poor translation on your behalf.  What secrets?  What shenanigans?  Isn't everything you need to know about polygraph but were afraid to ask, right here in George's book?  Then sir, what could WE possibly be doing that would qualify as underhanded?  I guess it has something to do with the "soapbox-Kool aide" mentality;  Roll Eyes

I'll let it go now...

Sackett
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Twoblock
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 732
Location: AR.
Joined: Oct 15th, 2002
Gender: Male
Re: Video and/or Sound Recording of Polygraphs
Reply #6 - Mar 22nd, 2008 at 8:43pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Sackett

There have been posters to these threads relaying horrow stories about their polygraphers. There were in the face confrontations by the polygrapher screaming, cursing, name calling, etc., at the examinee and I don't believe for a moment that they were lying.

If the examination was forced to be recorded, do you believe this type of polygrapher would alter the recording? I firmly do. With that kind of mentality, he is out to protect himself NOT the examinee. I don't believe in a one way street. The examinee should be afforded self protection. They should, at least, be able to have a lawyer behind the one way mirrow with audio capabilities. This would not be an interference to the polygrapger's test. I'll bet, if protection of this nature was allow, there would be fewer false positives.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box the_wolf
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 14
Joined: Dec 6th, 2005
Re: Video and/or Sound Recording of Polygraphs
Reply #7 - Mar 22nd, 2008 at 8:45pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Fair Chance wrote on Mar 22nd, 2008 at 3:12am:
Readers,

A thread was started many moons ago about the recording of polygraph operations.  This could be audio only or video and audio.  I believe a recording would have avoided what I went through because at a minimum, it showed obvious violations of "accepted polygraph procedures."

Now before anyone jumps on my case, I am not saying that polygraph procedures are accurate or acceptable per se.  I am reaching out to examinees and examiners.

Would you or do you have a concern with recording of such examinations as to defend the use of polygraphs and justify their results?  As an examinee, would you have a problem with the exam being recorded?

There seems to be no movement by examiners or government to go in this direction but I see little reason not to personally.

Pros and cons, let's hear them.

Regards.



The APA already has in their procedural guidelines that all polygraphs should be recorded. For PCSOT polygraph it is in the APA PCSOT model, JPCOT, and other model guidelines.

My advice to anyone taking a polygraph is clear. If the examiner does not have a working camera in the room, run, don't walk away. 

I record all examinations, and will never perform an examination without a camera.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box T.M. Cullen
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 858
Location: Hawaii
Joined: Dec 5th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: Video and/or Sound Recording of Polygraphs
Reply #8 - Mar 23rd, 2008 at 1:10am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Edited:
I record all examinations, and will never perform an examination without a camera.


Do you provide a copy to the test subject?

Do you record all phases (Pretest interview, test, post test interrogation)?

Wish I had video of my tester claiming the test to be 98% accurate.

TC
  

"There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)."

Dr. Phil Zimbardo, Phd, Standford University
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box sackett
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 347
Joined: Jan 31st, 2008
Re: Video and/or Sound Recording of Polygraphs
Reply #9 - Mar 23rd, 2008 at 1:31am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Twoblock wrote on Mar 22nd, 2008 at 8:43pm:
Sackett

There have been posters to these threads relaying horrow stories about their polygraphers. There were in the face confrontations by the polygrapher screaming, cursing, name calling, etc., at the examinee and I don't believe for a moment that they were lying.

If the examination was forced to be recorded, do you believe this type of polygrapher would alter the recording? I firmly do. With that kind of mentality, he is out to protect himself NOT the examinee. I don't believe in a one way street. The examinee should be afforded self protection. They should, at least, be able to have a lawyer behind the one way mirrow with audio capabilities. This would not be an interference to the polygrapger's test. I'll bet, if protection of this nature was allow, there would be fewer false positives.


Sorry, I doubt many of the stories reported on this board.  But, for the fact of embellishment, some may be true...

Having said that, recording examinations is what keeps the examiner ethical, straight and in accordance with his training.  I wouldn't give a test without recording it.

The problem with attorneys is they never want to give up control due to the monetary aspect of doing so.  If an attorney was "behind the glass" they could easily interupt the process because they hear something they haven't heard before and want to know what's up, what's going on and how do they control it.  This interferes with the process of the polygraph and while I usually give that option, once they interfere, the test is over and it takes away sometimes, the only manner of proving they didn't do what they are suspected of.

Sackett
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Twoblock
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 732
Location: AR.
Joined: Oct 15th, 2002
Gender: Male
Re: Video and/or Sound Recording of Polygraphs
Reply #10 - Mar 23rd, 2008 at 2:36am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Sackett

The horrow stories posted here doesn't need any frosting or decorating. Most of the stories were from first time posters, while researching polygraph, happened on to this site and had no reason what so ever to lie. They probably posted on Polygraph Place and you immediately deleted it.

It's not at all ethical or legal for an "in your face" polygrapher to curse an examinee. And one that would do that would certainly alter recordings. They don't give a tinkers damn about the rights or feelings of the examinee and they also know that the APA doesn't deal out sanctions for bad conduct.

Lawyers would interfere from behind the glass ?? That buckett has a hole in it. I doubt that any of them, if allowed to be "behind the glass" would refuse to sign a paper stating that if they interfered in any way the test is over, the examinee will be considered flunked and there will be no return of fees. Interference can be controlled and I think you know that. My opinion is that the polygraph industry can't handle a level playing field. It appears that the polygrapher thinks he has to have total control, even over the examinee's mind, or there can't be a test. How far off am I? Hell, If I had total controll over a person, I could make him scratch flees with his hind leg.

I believe you would get more truthful and accurate results by conducting one run through and then give the test - leaving off the card tricks, I'm the best there is, me and this machine are 95% accurate bs. Also furnish the charts when they are requested and a willingness to pay for them. That's harder than pulling hen's teeth.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Fair Chance
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 551
Joined: Oct 10th, 2002
Re: Video and/or Sound Recording of Polygraphs
Reply #11 - Mar 23rd, 2008 at 3:16am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Thanks for the interest to all who are posting.

My vison of recording is to have it certified similar to what happens in current court reporting processes.  A special program indicates if the original is altered or edited in any way.  The result is a "certified true copy".  These programs are on the market, heavily tested, and reliable.  The different agencies use similar certified recorders when they wire tap and record phone conversation for trial.

The cost is not that much and it would significantly reduce the "she says, he says" arguments.  There is technology to cut down many appeals and accusations.

Just can't see why we are not taking advantage of stuff that exist off the shelf.

Regards.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box sackett
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 347
Joined: Jan 31st, 2008
Re: Video and/or Sound Recording of Polygraphs
Reply #12 - Mar 23rd, 2008 at 3:50am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
You posted:  "The horrow stories posted here doesn't need any frosting or decorating. Most of the stories were from first time posters, while researching polygraph, happened on to this site and had no reason what so ever to lie. They probably posted on Polygraph Place and you immediately deleted it."

Oh yes they do.  That is, why it is an "anti" polygraph board.  If people posted their real experiences, we probably would not have half the alleged postings/problems purported here...  Why?   Because, most of them probably do not them to the level they report here...

If they posted on Polygraphplace.com, they would get an honest responsive answer to their honest question.  Would it be what is expected here?   Probably not!  Nothing ever seems to be...  But, one thing stated, we examiners will provide truthful answers to real (truthful) questions.   

Sackett
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box notguilty1
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 300
Joined: Feb 2nd, 2008
Re: Video and/or Sound Recording of Polygraphs
Reply #13 - Mar 23rd, 2008 at 4:17am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
sackett wrote on Mar 23rd, 2008 at 1:31am:
Twoblock wrote on Mar 22nd, 2008 at 8:43pm:
Sackett

There have been posters to these threads relaying horrow stories about their polygraphers. There were in the face confrontations by the polygrapher screaming, cursing, name calling, etc., at the examinee and I don't believe for a moment that they were lying.

If the examination was forced to be recorded, do you believe this type of polygrapher would alter the recording? I firmly do. With that kind of mentality, he is out to protect himself NOT the examinee. I don't believe in a one way street. The examinee should be afforded self protection. They should, at least, be able to have a lawyer behind the one way mirrow with audio capabilities. This would not be an interference to the polygrapger's test. I'll bet, if protection of this nature was allow, there would be fewer false positives.


Sorry, I doubt many of the stories reported on this board.  But, for the fact of embellishment, some may be true...

Having said that, recording examinations is what keeps the examiner ethical, straight and in accordance with his training.  I wouldn't give a test without recording it.

The problem with attorneys is they never want to give up control due to the monetary aspect of doing so.  If an attorney was "behind the glass" they could easily interupt the process because they hear something they haven't heard before and want to know what's up, what's going on and how do they control it.  This interferes with the process of the polygraph and while I usually give that option, once they interfere, the test is over and it takes away sometimes, the only manner of proving they didn't do what they are suspected of.

Sackett


The only good thing about Sackett is that the more he talks the more he buries himself and the Poligraph industry. 
Now, not only can he detect "Guilt" with "answer anyalisis" but he also would have you be denied your own attorney in a poligraph!!
Also the fact that he "doubts many of the stories reported on this board" shows his complete ingnorance in the verified short comings of Poligraph's.
Keep talking man!!!!.
I am just surprized that some other examiner on here does not try to shut him up. Grin  Grin  Grin  Grin   Grin  Grin
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Twoblock
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 732
Location: AR.
Joined: Oct 15th, 2002
Gender: Male
Re: Video and/or Sound Recording of Polygraphs
Reply #14 - Mar 23rd, 2008 at 8:00am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Sackett

See how you are. You know nothing about those posters yet you label them liars. Have you completed your mind reading project?

How about the rest of my post? How far off am I?

Can't comprehend your second paragraph.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Video and/or Sound Recording of Polygraphs

Please type the characters that appear in the image. The characters must be typed in the same order, and they are case-sensitive.
Open Preview Preview

You can resize the textbox by dragging the right or bottom border.
Insert Hyperlink Insert FTP Link Insert Image Insert E-mail Insert Media Insert Table Insert Table Row Insert Table Column Insert Horizontal Rule Insert Teletype Insert Code Insert Quote Edited Superscript Subscript Insert List /me - my name Insert Marquee Insert Timestamp No Parse
Bold Italicized Underline Insert Strikethrough Highlight
                       
Change Text Color
Insert Preformatted Text Left Align Centered Right Align
resize_wb
resize_hb







Max 200000 characters. Remaining characters:
Text size: pt
More Smilies
View All Smilies
Collapse additional features Collapse/Expand additional features Smiley Wink Cheesy Grin Angry Sad Shocked Cool Huh Roll Eyes Tongue Embarrassed Lips Sealed Undecided Kiss Cry
Attachments More Attachments Allowed file types: txt doc docx ics psd pdf bmp jpe jpg jpeg gif png swf zip rar tar gz 7z odt ods mp3 mp4 wav avi mov 3gp html maff pgp gpg
Maximum Attachment size: 500000 KB
Attachment 1:
X