Hi Fellas,

  I had a thought the other day which played out in my mind and wondered if you had thought along the same way before.  In regard to your Sacrament of CM's as members of the Church of the Wayward Deceptive that you claim to practice to a fine art; tell me this.   Where does one actually practice this to get it right ?  For example, let's say there were three guys; each of which were going to use countermeasures to, in their mind, boost their chances of getting a job requiring such testing.

Muskateer #1 uses too little of the techniques, and therefore it makes little if any difference in the overall outcome.

Musketeer #2 uses what he believest to be the right amount, which in reality may be too much or too little, in which case it would not matter or he would give himself away.  The result would be that he was either not as competative or would be tagged as a countermeasure clown.

Musketeer #3 uses clearly too much countermeasures and is therefore not competative at all, and the job gets filled by someone who arrives, tests truthful, and is made the job offer.   

Wait You Say !!!  What about the guy (Perhaps 1 in 500) who shows up, uses just the right amount of countermeasures (if there is such a thing) and passes his test.  Well, such an actual undeserving person is merely placed in a pool for further consideration, and might not otherwise make his/ her psyche, or other tests.   

  So, what are the REAL odds of such a person making it through with countermeasures toward a full and complete career ?  Slim and None. 

  There is no majic shortcut, and when you start just being yourself even you may be surprised what actual opportunities might come your way for which you don't have to be a fake to get a real life.

     Hi George,

[i]While you may take pleasure in likening AntiPolygraph.org to a cult or religious organization, there is nothing faith-based about the information on polygraph procedure and countermeasures presented in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector. It's based on primary sources (including the polygraph community's own literature) that skeptical readers are welcome (and encouraged) to check for themselves.[/i]

  I take no pleasure at all in what I see here.  Young folks from good families putting trust in you to given them some sort of edge by cheating is no reflection on me, but rather on you.  Further, you have not calculated the number of them who might get hired anyway, but rather in following your advice simply failed to pass due to distorted charts you have them create, and get put aside in favor of another.  How many careers have you set back from this advice which otherwise could have gotten off the launching pad of success ?   That you have not fulfilled your dreams or goals is no reason to put a road block in the way of others.   

  You worked in a chain of command system before and reached the rank of Captain.  Polygraph Examiners too work in such a system, and your now attempting to tear down that system from your own poor experiences should not be seen as a neutral act of an academic.  Simply don't pretend to be surprised if and when charges should ever be filed or acted on, as you / we live with the decisions we make in life.  I have expressed previously that in many ways I feel sorry for your timing in life having missed the opportunity of a lifetime in the war on terror, but I'm sure you think about that everyday.   

You said:   On the topic of faith-based systems, it's worth noting that the National Academy of Sciences likened the polygraph community's obscurantism to "the activities of a priesthood keeping its secrets in order to keep its power."

   Now George, is that statement consistent with a neutral peer review body, as it sounds rather to me like one arrogant group calling out another group they don't like.  That the polygraph community does much of it's work in secret is not shocking or surprising.  I think that Truth is in fact one of the most powerful and piercing things one can be a part of, and they deliver it quite well, and certainly on par with being worthy to have around.   

You Said:  There is ample reason to believe that polygraph techniques are vulnerable to countermeasures, and the fact remains that no polygrapher has ever demonstrated any ability to reliably detect the kinds of countermeasures described in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector

   Why would they share such knowledge with you should it exist ?  You assume to account for all of the variables.  When you say there is ample reason that polygraph techniques are vulnerable to countermeasures---------- Isn't that only because of YOU if true, and those like you with a mindset of getting over, cheating, screwing with the system, etc.   Hardly the type of person I want my tax dollars paying to work at the FBI, LAPD, etc.  George.   You may be the false Messiah of Manipulation for the readers here, but don't pretend anymore that you were the best choice for the taxpayer for the positons you applied given your conduct here as an example of what might have well been your behavior in such positions.   

       Hi NotGuilty1,

You said (Perhaps Ill Considered:  "Hey No lie,
Your attack on George is silly. He is not advocating for anyone to lie and get away with it. What I see is he is simply showing the unreliability with this machine and it's operators which I think he has done well.
His personal experiences as well as mone do fuel the need to inform and take action. 

Imagine black americans being told that they are destroying the system with their activisim even though they have been wronged.

Instead of attacking the messenger why don't you take the valid information that has been uncovered and maybe come up with a test that accually works."   

   Perhaps to the reasonable reader on this site your reference to African Americans and the civil rights struggle is a bit much.  That struggle effected people who otherwise wanted to be counted as a full American in every aspect of life and to be given "Equal" opportunity.

  The Government does not owe you a job.  In what jobs it does have, it has the right to screen for the best hiring decision by those tools IT has, and particularly for those jobs with Top Secret, or other clearance levels.  You showed up, you were owed nothing, and were not selected as competative overall; of which the polygraph played a part.  As previously stated, you assume the variable of being the best qualified which may not be true.  Further, attitude carries a great deal in any interview.  Certainly we agree that any interviewer asks themselves internally, would I want to work with this guy / gal ?? !!!  and, would they fit in well in our structure ?   

  It is not Burger King, You DON'T get it YOUR way, and your comparison to civil rights for African Americans is degrading to them in all that they have endured.   

  Please tell me why the test works well with those who are otherwise confirmed in their backgrounds as Truthful, but the same questions don't work on YOU / Other posters.  It seems the only variable that changed is YOU, your attitude, and personality flaw of defiance to legitimate authority over you.  The Examiners have long since met that test and have nothing to prove to you, you are not their equal in the employment world.  They have a very good job and an important one, you are merely looking for a job.   

     NotGuilty1,

  It sounds like you are not even sure if you passed your test for the crime you were accused of.  Clearly if you had failed they would have interrogated you. If not, they probably were inconclusive or had you as passing.  Sounds to me if it was not the former, and rather the latter, you owe some Examiner some thanks for his / her expertise.  That you do or do not like the process is not relevant.  They are not there to entertain you.   

  In regard to employment, keep hoping.  Hope is a good thing.  Hope defies reality as it is known at the present time.  Can you suggest a replacement ?  In other words what actual solution do you have which is in fact both affordable and actionable TODAY ?   No,       Nothing  ?
Well then it seems you are reduced to only griping, bitching, grumbling, and complaining; all just negative crap.  That you don't like the polygraph, repeat the mantras you see here, is not the same as having a pragmatic solution.  There are too many confirmed charts to ignore that the use of the polygraph has been effective, and clearly more than the coin flip you folks suggest here.   

TheNoLieGuy4U wrote on Mar 18^th, 2008 at 3:01am:


Wrong, I did in fact fail. The poligrapher specifically said that the machine indicated that I was "deceptive" in some of my answers.
They did "interogate" me after the poly and got NOTHING cause there was NOTHING to get. 
Believe me I owe no thanks to the moron that administered the test. He claimed 30 years of experience so, if it is so that an experienced examiner can best use the poly. He was either a Moron or..... Poly's don't work. I think the later
No, I agree the police are not there to entertain me but they are there to serve the public and last time I checked I am part of tht public. 
So you can go on about me being negative but it happened to me. Maybe someday you'll be accused of something you did not do or go for a job and the machine does what it does best, roll the dice.
No, I don't have a solution to detecting lies, and neither do you with a poligraph.
However, a equal and cheap replacement would be  Hmmmm, a crystal ball, Tea leaves, ink blots, all would be pretty much as effective in detecting lies and would be far cheaper to adminster.
As for elimintaing polys in employment you and other like minded folks being on here spending countless hours montoring this site shows me that you see the writing on the wall.
Like I said it's already useless in court. WHY?? Cause the results cannot be relied on as accurate.
Thanks GEORGE for this site!

TheNoLieGuy4U wrote on Mar 18^th, 2008 at 3:54am:


No, I have no such beliefs about the examiner just that he was using a test that didn't work and there follow up interogation yeilded nothing because there was nothing to yeild.
As for the rest of the story..... I know you'd love for there to be more to it than that but..... ther isn't I was interogated for about 10 minutes and the demenor of the detective did not change from before the test.
His questioning did not increase in any way, which leads me t believe that he was not impressed with the poly results either. Of course that is just my observation and I am not a highly trained poly examiner.
YES, they didn't have strong enough evidence against me if the test was reliable they certainly would have since I failed the poly.
BTW I didn't seek my own poly or an attorney I was truthfull and felt I didn't need them. If I was guilty I would not have taken any chances and I would have gotten an attorney to tell the cops to pound sand.

       NotGuilty1,

  Ok first of all my conparison to the struggles of African Americans is relavant here.

NO IT REALLY ISN'T, and trying to compare those (of all races) who participated in the civil rights movement who advocated "--With Liberty and Justice for All" or "All Men are endowed by their creator with inalianable rights" with your little cheat sheet island here is nothing more than a farse.  They are nothing alike, and African Americans who read this would laugh at the rediculousnous of that as I do.  You can NOT claim a civil right to a job, or more than what was available to you in the investigation you participated in.  You start from a false premise, so you end up with a false answer; and an anology which shows delusions of grandure about your relationship to your polygraph test.  By the way, did the crime you were tested for / interrogated over / a suspect in; ever get solved ?  Was it shown that some other person did the crime ?  If so we would know that your test was in fact a False positive.  Can you provide that please !!!!!  No, then you remain on the suspect list, so don't preach to me about being on par with a civil rights case, as members of my family know what the struggle for civil rights is, and participated in same.  You were presumed innocent at all times until a jury would find you otherwise.  You were processed according to where the evidence lead the Police to have asked you to submit to a test.  That was voluntary.  They did not guarantee an outcome, but rather a fair process.  You failed that process, and now have no choice but to citicize the instrument and person(s) who conducted that, rather than perhaps the alternative where you may not have told us everything.  I'm curious, has the statute of limitations run out on this crime, and what crime was it.   Please,    Don't Tell Me ,         Child Molestation !!!! ?

For years they had been victims of scams and non scientific examples on why they could not be counted as equals. I am sure that many of them have been told "you know you simply DON"T get it YOUR way!!

I know the comparision is ment to make one think. But.. of course why do that when we have been trained to use the hocus-pocus machine.
If your so called "examiners" met their "test" you, my friend would not be here along with your pro poly possy trying to perpetuate the lie that polys some how detect lies. 

The test working well for those comfirmed has nothing to do with the tests ability to dectect truthfull statements. They simply did not react to the questions for whatever reasons.

Furthermore, I am not looking for a job I have a very successfull business. 
I was accused of a crime I had nothing to do with and the machine I was told said that I was being deceptive in some of my answers. Of course I was never told which answers.
Now to you and your ilk that may not be a big deal but to some one like myself, who has been honest all my life. The fact that I was being called a lier weighed heavy on me. 
Also, I now know that if for any reason I would have to submitt to one of your scam tests again ( not that I would again willingly) the fact that I would have to disclose a previous failed chart pretty much tags me as a lier.
Lastly, You and the poly world DO NOT have the right to use unscientific tests in criminal trials ...wonder why?? And your right to use the in employment is coming to an end too. Soon I hope.

     NotGuilty1,

  Sorry, I forgot the rest !!!!

For years they had been victims of scams and non scientific examples on why they could not be counted as equals. I am sure that many of them have been told "you know you simply DON"T get it YOUR way!!

Not by Me, or those with my thinking !!!


I know the comparision is ment to make one think. But.. of course why do that when we have been trained to use the hocus-pocus machine.

   There is no Hocus Pocus to human physiology as it is engrained in us all   ANS = PNS/SNS .  You don't have to reinvent the wheel with each human being.  The test if fair and up front with no surpises.  That you did not enjoy it or like being a suspect is irrelevant. 


If your so called "examiners" met their "test" you, my friend would not be here along with your pro poly possy trying to perpetuate the lie that polys some how detect lies.

I am not a member of any pro poly possy, and am here to speak for myself.  When you say "Met Their Test", I can only assume you mean the bait and switch being offered here in regard to detection of countermeasures.  I wonder why any group would submit itself to another who reserves the rightt to be both judge and jury, when their minds have already been made up.  From what I have read here, all the reasonable people agree that technology only gets better with time, and that research studies over time have show the ability only getting better as the database of experience widens.  Such is true of Medicine, Aviation, and perhaps whatever business you find yourself in as well.   

The test working well for those comfirmed has nothing to do with the tests ability to dectect truthfull statements. They simply did not react to the questions for whatever reasons.

FOR WHATEVER REASONS ???   In the case of government hirng, I think they will place their bet on the lower risk person with my tax dollars and the publics ,  Thank You Very Much !!!!  In the case of specific issue crime testing, suspects are persued where the evidence leads, and proper unbiased questions are used in validated formats.  They don't have to invent that each time.   

Furthermore, I am not looking for a job I have a very successfull business. 
I was accused of a crime I had nothing to do with and the machine I was told said that I was being deceptive in some of my answers. Of course I was never told which answers.

Clearly then, from this statement, you write from an incomplete knowledge about the case overall. 

Now to you and your ilk that may not be a big deal but to some one like myself, who has been honest all my life. The fact that I was being called a lier weighed heavy on me.

You don't know anything about me to say I'm of "ilk", and I regard the civil rights of everyone a big deal.  That it weighed heavy on you or not is not the primary concern here.  Your civil rights were NOT violated from what you have written. 

Also, I now know that if for any reason I would have to submitt to one of your scam tests again ( not that I would again willingly) the fact that I would have to disclose a previous failed chart pretty much tags me as a lier.

Again, a broad assumption that exists in your mind only.  Under circumstances you perhaps can not imagine, you might find yourself going to an Attorney Client Priv. exam in your own best interest, rather than a Police exam out of necessity as are most tests. There are defense attorneys who request such tests you know. 

Lastly, You and the poly world DO NOT have the right to use unscientific tests in criminal trials ...wonder why?? And your right to use the in employment is coming to an end too. Soon I hope.

   Think again now !!!  State by State those decisions are made by the legislatures and case law.  New Mexico for example has open admissability in criminal trials, and you know what, the conviction rate is no different than in States that don't have that.  Certain federal courts allow for polygraph expert evidence, and much of the time it is to clear someone.  You assume the negative each time as if this technology ONLY seeks to convict.  You miss half the mission statement or purpose of it all.  Did you think nobody EVER passed as Truthful ? 

  You say "It Don't Make Sense !" .  NO !!  It makes sense to those who invest the time to understand it all who can make sense of it.  Like good men and women who serve their country in Federal capacities or law enforcement, or the pragmatic private sector.  They take it very seriously and seek TRUTH, and while that Truth may not be convenient to some, they follow where it leads and act on it.  You must own a pet store or something, as you repeat the mantras well that line these posts like a parrot.  Nobody here I have read says it is all perfect, but is the best we have, and good men and women do their best with ongoing improvements as time passes.  That is the simple Truth.  Got It ?  Got Truth ?