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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Failed Vegas Metro Poly (Read 24067 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box EJohnson
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Re: Failed Vegas Metro Poly
Reply #15 - Jan 15th, 2008 at 2:35pm
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candy wrote on Jan 15th, 2008 at 1:17pm:
Ej

My research indicates that the Stim test is used to convince the examinee that polygraph is accurate, scientific and is able to differentiate between truth and even a teensy lie.

The stim test is in the same vein as the card trick and the silent answer test. The latter being an exercise in gross stupidity.

The blind stim test cannot be compared to a GKT because the one holds no negative outcome for the examinee, whilst the other does.

No science is involved. Just plain old dupery. A scam-sham of note.



Not so Candy.
The stim test is used for the following reasons.
1. To familiarize the examinee with the sometimes nerve-racking"feel" of having the components attached to the examinee. Very important.
2. To familiarize the examinee with the tone of voice of questioning (monotone) versus the more articulate conversational tone of the pre-test. 
3. The concept known as "Individual Subject Specificity" is held during the pretest----in that say, an elderly person might have diminished galvanic reactions, so mental notes can be taken. I once tested a professional painter whose lungs were so damaged that his breathing looked like that of a dolphin's. Purely unscorable data noise. Additionally, some examinees have higher or lower threshholds for arousal, so the instrument sensetivity settings are done during the stim test---in order to extinguish "data noise" or to turn up those features which may appear on the screen as being too small---typically because a component is on looser than say, the last test ran. Keep in mind that all arousals are relative to each other, regardless of the individual's own homeostasis (balance.) 
4. To demonstrate to the examinee that the instrument can differentiate between stress and memory. I always showed the examinee their stim test---and they were often suprised that despite their nervousness, their charts were quite placid. People, even George himself, seem to be fixated on the notion that mere nervousness is what makes for "heavy ink." 
5. To familiarize the examinee and examiner the ability of the examinee to listen and follow instructions. We cannot give IQ tests per se, but the stim test can often times be a revealer of an examinee's mental awareness.
6. And lastly, the stim test is to help get the examiner mentally and logistically ready for the test. Many times during the stim test, I have noticed that I placed a component on the examinee too loose, crooked, or too tight. The stim test is like stretching for a runner. It is the closest to a warm up, or a dress rehearsal that we have. 


So, you are wrong in every respect about the stim test. Learn something---ignoring a veteran of the field for which you are researching is "gross stupidity." 
  

All men are mortal. Socrates was mortal. Therefore, &&all men are Socrates.-----Woody Allen  &&
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Re: Failed Vegas Metro Poly
Reply #16 - Jan 16th, 2008 at 2:02pm
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Not so stupid as you may think EJ. I have been speaking to numerous polygraph vets in the past few weeks. The overwhelming feedback is that the stim test is part of the con job and examiners will take a bullet to the brain before they ever admt to the fact that for the most part, the examination per se is a con job deluxe. 

FYI, my brother caused a big stink over his 'failed' polygraph. The CEO agreed to retests of the 5 suspects, this time using a different examiner and a different approach. Well, well. A CVS examiner not only cleared my brother but secured a signed confession from a previously 'cleared' suspect AND money and merchandise was subsequently recovered.

The stim test; the silent answer test; the con verbiage. It was all bullshit. I simply wish that my brother had not signed confidentiality
agreement and legal waiver. A good stiff kick in the wallet is what's needed to put some of these people in their places.

My point is proven even before my crusade got a head of steam.

  
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Re: Failed Vegas Metro Poly
Reply #17 - Jan 16th, 2008 at 2:30pm
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Candy:

Get ready for a stream of techno-babble coming your way.  Cheesy
  

"Although the degree of reliability of polygraph evidence may depend upon a variety of identifiable factors, there is simply no way to know in a particular case whether a polygraph examiner's Conclusion is accurate, because certain doubts and uncertainties plague even the best polygraph exams."  (Justice Clarence Thomas writing in United States v. Scheffer, 523 U.S. 303, 118 S.Ct. 1261, 140 L.Ed.2d 413, 1998.)
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Re: Failed Vegas Metro Poly
Reply #18 - Jan 16th, 2008 at 3:24pm
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Candy

I think that piece of paper your brother had to sign is worthless. Apparently this was a criminal case and a person cannot be forced to sign away his constitutional right to sue. Some might say the signing was voluntary, but it was coersed. If he had not signed, the polygrapher would not have given him the poly, same as refusing to take, and he would have gotten much more attention as a guilty party even though a poly can't be required.

Check with a federal lawyer in your area. Federal is the venue here because of a possible constitutional right violation.
  
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Re: Failed Vegas Metro Poly
Reply #19 - Jan 16th, 2008 at 6:08pm
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Quote:
Even in the pre-interview, he didn't seem to believe that was possible.


for those of us who have made this conscious decision to avoid drugs in our lives, this sort of condescending assumption is very insulting and maddening. any cop who says this is just projecting the fact that he used to rock the ganja hard, or still is.

it is quite possible and very easy to not take illegal drugs.
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: Failed Vegas Metro Poly
Reply #20 - Jan 16th, 2008 at 9:41pm
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Eric,

The U.S. Government's official how-to manual on polygraphy, formally titled the Psychophysiological Detection of Deception Examiner Handbook, avers that the key aim of the stim test (alternatively called an "acquaintance test") is to convince the examinee that polygraphy "works," stating in its glossary at p. xii:

Quote:
Acquaintance Test (ACQT): A questioning format that is a form of the known solution peak of tension test. It is utilized to demonstrate and acquaint the examinee with the basic concepts of the PDD examination. The primary purpose of this test is to assure the examinee that the PDD process is effective. (emphasis added)
  

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Re: Failed Vegas Metro Poly
Reply #21 - Jan 18th, 2008 at 6:18am
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Although this is not related to the original topic, the following does address some issues that have been raised within it.

First off, I would highly suggest that those commenting on polygraph and the CIT read some of the more recent published research.

http://users.ugent.be/~bvschuer/research.htm

A startle response, as what is George described, is not necessarily that which is seen, and quite possibly is not.  

The orienting reflex is more plausible, but there still needs to be further research and independent replication (which I have found to be a common cliché of researchers and should be, as no theory is ever absolute).  This, simply put, is that stimuli with relevance (e.g. memory based) create greater orienting responses than stimuli that have no relevance (e.g. novel, non-memory based).  

There would also appear to be initial evidence that habituation and dishabituation might play a role.

Although deceptive and knowledge based polygraph examinations do have differences, there are inherent similarities in both when compared to the aforementioned.

Also, I have yet to see any research that definitively proves that "jeopardy" need be present.

What I have seen in the research is that a polygraph examination, at the least, provides the greater boost in incremental validity than any other method in its given application (e.g. eyewitness accuracy at discerning suspects, raw human ability to ascertain veracity).
  

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Re: Failed Vegas Metro Poly
Reply #22 - Jan 18th, 2008 at 6:51am
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J.B.,

Thank you for the links to Verschure's articles. It appears that I was mistaken in my belief that the term "orienting response" is used exclusively with reference to responses to novel stimuli.

With regard to your following statement:

Quote:
What I have seen in the research is that a polygraph examination, at the least, provides the greater boost in incremental validity than any other method in its given application (e.g. eyewitness accuracy at discerning suspects, raw human ability to ascertain veracity).


note that this at variance with the conclusions of the National Academy of Sciences' Committee to Review the Scientific Evidence on the Polygraph, which reports (at p. 214), "There is essentially no evidence on the incremental validity of polygraph testing, that is, its ability to add predictive value to that which can be achieved by other methods."
  

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Re: Failed Vegas Metro Poly
Reply #23 - Jan 18th, 2008 at 12:34pm
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Twoblock wrote on Jan 16th, 2008 at 3:24pm:
Candy

I think that piece of paper your brother had to sign is worthless. Apparently this was a criminal case and a person cannot be forced to sign away his constitutional right to sue. Some might say the signing was voluntary, but it was coersed. If he had not signed, the polygrapher would not have given him the poly, same as refusing to take, and he would have gotten much more attention as a guilty party even though a poly can't be required.

Check with a federal lawyer in your area. Federal is the venue here because of a possible constitutional right violation.


I have tried to motivate exactly that. He's just so relieved that the problem is solved. He really likes his job and his boss is genuinely traumatised as well by the bungle. He has made up for it in spades. They all learned something from the nightmare. 
I would like to crush the examiners....., but have to let it go.
  
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Re: Failed Vegas Metro Poly
Reply #24 - Jan 18th, 2008 at 2:28pm
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George W. Maschke wrote on Jan 16th, 2008 at 9:41pm:
Eric,

The U.S. Government's official how-to manual on polygraphy, formally titled the Psychophysiological Detection of Deception Examiner Handbook, avers that the key aim of the stim test (alternatively called an "acquaintance test") is to convince the examinee that polygraphy "works," stating in its glossary at p. xii:

Quote:
Acquaintance Test (ACQT): A questioning format that is a form of the known solution peak of tension test. It is utilized to demonstrate and acquaint the examinee with the basic concepts of the PDD examination. The primary purpose of this test is to assure the examinee that the PDD process is effective. (emphasis added)


I love it.  George did not try to lie or deceive.  He used facts to prove that the STIM test or ACQT is in fact part of the scam.  EJ tried to use a large paragraph in an effort to continue the lie that polygraphs are not a scam.  Just more smoke and mirrors.  Good job candy on your research. Wink
  

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Re: Failed Vegas Metro Poly
Reply #25 - Jan 18th, 2008 at 3:11pm
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candy wrote on Jan 16th, 2008 at 2:02pm:
Not so stupid as you may think EJ. I have been speaking to numerous polygraph vets in the past few weeks. The overwhelming feedback is that the stim test is part of the con job and examiners will take a bullet to the brain before they ever admt to the fact that for the most part, the examination per se is a con job deluxe. 

FYI, my brother caused a big stink over his 'failed' polygraph. The CEO agreed to retests of the 5 suspects, this time using a different examiner and a different approach. Well, well. A CVS examiner not only cleared my brother but secured a signed confession from a previously 'cleared' suspect AND money and merchandise was subsequently recovered.

The stim test; the silent answer test; the con verbiage. It was all bullshit. I simply wish that my brother had not signed confidentiality
agreement and legal waiver. A good stiff kick in the wallet is what's needed to put some of these people in their places.

My point is proven even before my crusade got a head of steam.



Candy, you are simply lying about being told by "vet examiners" regarding the reasons for using the stim test. I and other examiners are  implicitly taught what the stim test is used for (there are listed reasons, and I stated those precise reasons on my post.) Care to reveal the indentities of those examiners which allegedly told you that the stim test is only used to convince the examinee of the accuracy of the test? Can you walk the walk Candy? 

Girlie, I am calling your bluff.

p.s. I will look for my DOD description of the reasons for the stim/acq test. Regardless of what George's bootleg paper says, my manual from 2000 (?) is very much to the contrary.
  

All men are mortal. Socrates was mortal. Therefore, &&all men are Socrates.-----Woody Allen  &&
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Re: Failed Vegas Metro Poly
Reply #26 - Jan 21st, 2008 at 12:38pm
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EJ, I think you meant to say, "Can you walk the talk". Anyhow, your opinion of me means a big fat '0' in my life.

You verbal fertilizer has been spread thickly all over this forum. You contradict yourself so much that I for one cannot take you seriously even when you are trying to be funny. 

I read the Trolling / Rat posts with interest and a big dollop of glee. I also noted your great consternation about who the rat may have been.
Interesting that you now ask me to rat on some of your fraternity.

You exhibit double standards, you talk double dutch, and you are apparently a double-crosser. 

Please dont patronise me. I am not anyone's 'girlie'.



  
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Re: Failed Vegas Metro Poly
Reply #27 - Apr 12th, 2016 at 3:08am
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Has anyone ever failed poly at LVMPD and still got hired??
  
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Re: Failed Vegas Metro Poly
Reply #28 - Apr 12th, 2016 at 11:12pm
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Quote:
Has anyone ever failed poly at LVMPD and still got hired??

Randal,
Allow me to augment your question and ask if anyone has ever been hired anywhere after failing a polygraph exam.
« Last Edit: Apr 13th, 2016 at 12:52am by Ex Member »  
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Re: Failed Vegas Metro Poly
Reply #29 - Apr 13th, 2016 at 10:40am
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Yes, I have, but I was hired by a different agency rather than the one whose polygraph I failed.  Still got my TS clearance with other additional special access, without the stupid polygraph.
  
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