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Failed Vegas Metro Poly
Jan 10th, 2008 at 8:08pm
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Well I'm now a firm believer in the whole false-postive thing!  I made it all the way to my poly at LVMPD and got told that I failed on the drug usage questions.  The problem is, I've never used an illegal drug...EVER!!  Even in the pre-interview, he didn't seem to believe that was possible.  Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone out there has been told that they have "failed" the poly but found out later that they were allowed to continue with the hiring process.  It just seemed wierd to me that after telling me that I failed, he wanted to know what I was "still not telling him".  Why would he care if I really did fail?  Was it just an act or did I really "fail"?  Any reply would be helpful.  Also, any other future LVMPD cadidates, the rest of the process was really easy leading up to the poly.  ...but good luck on that. 
-Bummed in OH
  
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Re: Failed Vegas Metro Poly
Reply #1 - Jan 11th, 2008 at 12:55am
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I also wanted to add a few things that I thought were perculiar.  First, he origanally told me that I failed the drug usage questions but then after I denied it, he added that I failed a question regarding criminal history like he forgot that I failed it or something.  Also, he told me to keep up with any appointments that I had with my background investigator.  I don't understand why he would tell me that if I really did fail and would be automatically DQ'd because of the failure.  It seems to me that there is the possibility that either I passed, or it was inconclusive and he was trying to get a last second confession out of me.  I don't know...maybe my observations are right, maybe I'm just grasping at a false hope.  Well any responses or thoughts on this would be great!
  
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Re: Failed Vegas Metro Poly
Reply #2 - Jan 11th, 2008 at 2:26am
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GeraldoGibbons wrote on Jan 11th, 2008 at 12:55am:
I also wanted to add a few things that I thought were perculiar.  First, he origanally told me that I failed the drug usage questions but then after I denied it, he added that I failed a question regarding criminal history like he forgot that I failed it or something.  Also, he told me to keep up with any appointments that I had with my background investigator.  I don't understand why he would tell me that if I really did fail and would be automatically DQ'd because of the failure.  It seems to me that there is the possibility that either I passed, or it was inconclusive and he was trying to get a last second confession out of me.  I don't know...maybe my observations are right, maybe I'm just grasping at a false hope.  Well any responses or thoughts on this would be great!  


I would recommend that you document everything that has occured.  Even writing a "diary" of sorts memorilizes what was said, etc.  Was this poly exam video/audio taped?  If so, once the whole hiring procedure is complete, (as assuming you are DQ'd by the poly, respectfully and in writing, request copies of the tapes, even offering to pay for them yourself.

Additionally, look into the civil service rules for LVMPD, and see if there is any appeal process.  There usually is, and most people don't know about it.

Remember, you didn't "fail" a test, but instead (assuming what you write is correct) you received an unfavorable opinion by the polygrapher.  He will need to be able to back up his opinion if it is called into question, so be nice, (for now), and don't rock the boat.  You might want to consult an employment attorney, (if this is really a big thing for you, and worth chasing with a little money).  That attorney can dispatch his investigator to do some of the leg work, without tipping your hat.

And by means, keep us informed.
  

"Although the degree of reliability of polygraph evidence may depend upon a variety of identifiable factors, there is simply no way to know in a particular case whether a polygraph examiner's Conclusion is accurate, because certain doubts and uncertainties plague even the best polygraph exams."  (Justice Clarence Thomas writing in United States v. Scheffer, 523 U.S. 303, 118 S.Ct. 1261, 140 L.Ed.2d 413, 1998.)
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Re: Failed Vegas Metro Poly
Reply #3 - Jan 13th, 2008 at 4:24pm
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Well I just found out from somebody inside LVMPD that they seemingly tell every applicant that they have failed in order to try and obtain a last minute admission out of them.  Is this a common practice?  Also, my post interview was only like 2min. long.  Is that possibly a good sign that maybe he just wanted to get his standard procedure overwith since I really passed.  Again, I don't see how I failed because I've never even done drugs and don't understand how that cursed machine could even misread me.  Anyways, opinions and comments would be nice.
  
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Re: Failed Vegas Metro Poly
Reply #4 - Jan 13th, 2008 at 4:37pm
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GG:

Assuming what you say is true, this is one example of why I believe polygraphy hurts more than helps the selection process.  How can you ever trust anything the LVMPD brass tell you, knowing that they have started out their association with you by lying to you?

BTW, you will be lied to by the brass for your whole career if you get hired, just get used to it.  (If you don't believe me, ask the other cops here).  Behave honestly yourself, and hold your head up high regardless of what comes down the line, and when you are pressured by fellow officers or the brass to "massage" the facts a little, just say no.

  

"Although the degree of reliability of polygraph evidence may depend upon a variety of identifiable factors, there is simply no way to know in a particular case whether a polygraph examiner's Conclusion is accurate, because certain doubts and uncertainties plague even the best polygraph exams."  (Justice Clarence Thomas writing in United States v. Scheffer, 523 U.S. 303, 118 S.Ct. 1261, 140 L.Ed.2d 413, 1998.)
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Re: Failed Vegas Metro Poly
Reply #5 - Jan 14th, 2008 at 5:04am
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nopolycop wrote on Jan 13th, 2008 at 4:37pm:
GG:

Assuming what you say is true, this is one example of why I believe polygraphy hurts more than helps the selection process.  How can you ever trust anything the LVMPD brass tell you, knowing that they have started out their association with you by lying to you?

BTW, you will be lied to by the brass for your whole career if you get hired, just get used to it.  (If you don't believe me, ask the other cops here).  Behave honestly yourself, and hold your head up high regardless of what comes down the line, and when you are pressured by fellow officers or the brass to "massage" the facts a little, just say no.



Doesn't that statement negate your claim that polygraph error rates somehow damage the repoirte between officer and administrators? Sounds like the relationship between upper management and the troops goes South as soon as the first roll call. Strange how if a cop wants to tap your telephone to get information, he gets permission (judge) and does so, but if a cop wants to run a stim test to demonstrate how the polygraph can identify a "secondary orienting response"aka Guilty Knowledge Test---the very kind of test that even Drew Richardson said was a credible and highly accurate test type, than that examiner is somehow behaving "unethically."  I always ran blind stim tests---whereas the examinee wrote on a piece of withheld paper their secret number, and I would ascertain the number with the polygraph instrument while also getting a "feel" for what kinds of levels of responses and rates to expect---and also the level of cooperation/resistance to the process, then have them show me their written choice after. Works every time. In fact, the blind stim works so consistantly that when that stim comes out skewed in any way, then that examinee is under great suspicion of countermeasures before the test even begins. No tricks, none of the stuff that TLBTLD says happens in tests regarding intent, but only behavior (they are mutually exclusive). So, Sarge's oft given advice on "day dreaming" during a test just goes to show that even wise people can come up with moronic ideas. Again, more innacuracies from the naysayers who seem to know far less than they pretend. Classic "fill in the blanks with BS" when you are trying to write an authoritative screed on something for which the author has no direct experience nor training in. Academics use the euphemistic word "padding" to describe such. Failing a polygraph and reading some tomes for a writing project makes not an expert, it makes someone a fictional novelist.

Cops do what they have to under legal circumstances (in 99.9% of cases) in order to gain information and possibly take an action. They are under no obligation to be sweet and cuddly when it comes to getting that information. The US Supreme Court has ruled that time and time again cops can legally be sneaky.

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Behave honestly yourself, and hold your head up high regardless of what comes down the line, and when you are pressured by fellow officers or the brass to "massage" the facts a little, just say no.


Best advice yet. Bravo nopolycop! No matter what an employer tells you to do, if it is against the law, you will will be liabel, not the employer. 
« Last Edit: Jan 14th, 2008 at 5:28am by EJohnson »  

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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: Failed Vegas Metro Poly
Reply #6 - Jan 14th, 2008 at 6:14am
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EJohnson wrote on Jan 14th, 2008 at 5:04am:
...Strange how if a cop wants to tap your telephone to get information, he gets permission (judge) and does so, but if a cop wants to run a stim test to demonstrate how the polygraph can identify a "secondary orienting response"aka Guilty Knowledge Test---the very kind of test that even Drew Richardson said was a credible and highly accurate test type, than that examiner is somehow behaving "unethically."


The stim test is not designed to "demonstrate how the polygraph can identify a 'secondary orienting response.'" Reactions to numbers read aloud in series are not orienting responses. An orienting response is the kind one might expect, for example, if a large book were unexpectedly dropped to the floor. (The Guilty Knowledge Test isn't based on orienting resonses, either.)

The stim test is merely a gimmick used by polygraphers in an effort to falsely convince examinees that the polygraph can detect deception.

Quote:
I always ran blind stim tests---whereas the examinee wrote on a piece of withheld paper their secret number, and I would ascertain the number with the polygraph instrument while also getting a "feel" for what kinds of levels of responses and rates to expect---and also the level of cooperation/resistance to the process, then have them show me their written choice after. Works every time. In fact, the blind stim works so consistantly that when that stim comes out skewed in any way, then that examinee is under great suspicion of countermeasures before the test even begins. No tricks, none of the stuff that TLBTLD says happens in tests regarding intent, but only behavior (they are mutually exclusive).


The federal polygraph community does not share your professed faith in "blind" stim tests, but rather uses the deceptive procedure outlined in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector, which is based on DACA/DoDPI documentation.

Quote:
So, Sarge's oft given advice on "day dreaming" during a test just goes to show that even wise people can come up with moronic ideas.


Sergeant1107 hasn't "given advice on 'day dreaming.'" Rather, he has argued (and I agree) that it is not unethical for an examinee who has answered the relevant questions truthfully to use mental countermeasures (such as doing math in ones head or thinking exciting thoughts) during the asking of the "control" questions in order to reduce the risk of a false positive outcome. There is nothing moronic about that.

Quote:
Again, more innacuracies from the naysayers who seem to know far less than they pretend. Classic "fill in the blanks with BS" when you are trying to write an authoritative screed on something for which the author has no direct experience nor training in. Academics use the euphemistic word "padding" to describe such. Failing a polygraph and reading some tomes for a writing project makes not an expert, it makes someone a fictional novelist.


Dr. Louis Rovner (a participant in the trolling campaign you organized on this message board) last year testified in court regarding The Lie Behind the Lie Detector: "He [George Maschke] has provided a sophisticated and accurate account of what goes on in a polygraph test, essentially what I did in my research, but his is so thorough and complete it's just breathtaking how good and accurate the information is." Was Rovner being deceptive? Or are you?
« Last Edit: Jan 14th, 2008 at 6:40am by George W. Maschke »  

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Re: Failed Vegas Metro Poly
Reply #7 - Jan 14th, 2008 at 7:53am
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EJohnson wrote on Jan 14th, 2008 at 5:04am:
So, Sarge's oft given advice on "day dreaming" during a test just goes to show that even wise people can come up with moronic ideas.


I don’t recall ever giving anyone advice to “day dream” or use any other kind of countermeasures.  Perhaps the next time you wish to cite me as the source of oft-given moronic advice you could first determine if I have ever given any such advice.

As George mentioned, I have stated that I don’t see an ethical problem with a police applicant who answers all questions truthfully and without withholding any information, and then thinks about whatever he or she wishes to think about afterward.  I don’t recall ever suggesting that anyone do that, but I have certainly posted that I don’t see how such behavior could be considered unethical or dishonest.
  

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Re: Failed Vegas Metro Poly
Reply #8 - Jan 14th, 2008 at 1:07pm
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I don’t recall ever giving anyone advice to “day dream” or use any other kind of countermeasures.  Perhaps the next time you wish to cite me as the source of oft-given moronic advice you could first determine if I have ever given any such advice.


Sarge wrote some 2 weeks ago; 

Quote:
If a test subject answers all questions honestly, and does not withhold any information, how is he behaving unethically if he does long division or recites poetry in his head?


Looks like a ringing endorsement of mental countermeasures, as the official moral/ legal authority of antipolygraph.org has declared such "day dreaming---a visionary fantasy indulged in while awake---a mental diversion"----as ethical.

Quote:
Sergeant1107 hasn't "given advice on 'day dreaming.'" Rather, he has argued (and I agree) that it is not unethical for an examinee who has answered the relevant questions truthfully to use mental countermeasures (such as doing math in ones head or thinking exciting thoughts) during the asking of the "control" questions in order to reduce the risk of a false positive outcome. There is nothing moronic about that

You assume that examinee's can always automatically identify the relevant questions. More hair splitting ethics. 
Quote:
The stim test is merely a gimmick used by polygraphers in an effort to falsely convince examinees that the polygraph can detect deception.

The stim test has several reasons for it's use. None of which are called gimmicks. A gimmick is something that has no basis in science, exists for entertainment purposes or to merely get attention, and should never be confused with a tangible value or deed----the very definition of TLBTLD (lol)
Quote:
An orienting response is the kind one might expect, for example, if a large book were unexpectedly dropped to the floor. (The Guilty Knowledge Test isn't based on orienting resonses, either.)


I did not say the GKT was based on an orienting response. I wrote that the stim test was based on a "secondary orienting response"----in other words, it is a "recognizing response", not an initial response as is your "book slamming" analogy, thought to work via reticular activation, or memory recognition. Regardless, the blind stim test is the cousin of the GKT as it contains a "key" (the secret) and padding (non-relevant items.) Perhaps some more desparate conferance calls to your examiner friend/source are in order. You seem to know two things about blind stim tests and one of them, Jack,  left town.

Quote:
[quote]Dr. Louis Rovner (a participant in the trolling campaign you organized on this message board) last year testified in court regarding The Lie Behind the Lie Detector: "He [George Maschke] has provided a sophisticated and accurate account of what goes on in a polygraph test, essentially what I did in my research, but his is so thorough and complete it's just breathtaking."


I would disagree with Dr. Rovner's assertion and/or statement regarding the "accuracy" of TLBTLD. You speak as if examiners agree with each other on all points.  What is breathtaking is the volume of information taken from DODPI/DACA manuals---much of which is spot on. It is the assertions that are moronic, and rather than rehashing the subject, I would invite readers to read the bulk of each polygraph examiner's postings. If TLBTLD was rightfully asserted, we wouldn't be here. Data and Logic are not one in the same.
« Last Edit: Jan 14th, 2008 at 2:03pm by EJohnson »  

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Re: Failed Vegas Metro Poly
Reply #9 - Jan 14th, 2008 at 2:17pm
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Boy this sure got off topic...
Smiley
  
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Re: Failed Vegas Metro Poly
Reply #10 - Jan 14th, 2008 at 4:19pm
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EJohnson wrote on Jan 14th, 2008 at 5:04am:
nopolycop wrote on Jan 13th, 2008 at 4:37pm:
GG:

Assuming what you say is true, this is one example of why I believe polygraphy hurts more than helps the selection process.  How can you ever trust anything the LVMPD brass tell you, knowing that they have started out their association with you by lying to you?

BTW, you will be lied to by the brass for your whole career if you get hired, just get used to it.  (



Doesn't that statement negate your claim that polygraph error rates somehow damage the repoirte between officer and administrators? Sounds like the relationship between upper management and the troops goes South as soon as the first roll call.


No Eric, I was speaking precisely to LVMPD and the fact that they tell everyone after the poly they failed, (a lie, as I understand it).

Each officer must make the value judgment on whether or not pursing a police career is worth jumping through the hurdles.  I also submit that a police applicant should be treated differently than a common criminal, where it is a valid interrogation techinique to lie to the suspect to illicit more information.
  

"Although the degree of reliability of polygraph evidence may depend upon a variety of identifiable factors, there is simply no way to know in a particular case whether a polygraph examiner's Conclusion is accurate, because certain doubts and uncertainties plague even the best polygraph exams."  (Justice Clarence Thomas writing in United States v. Scheffer, 523 U.S. 303, 118 S.Ct. 1261, 140 L.Ed.2d 413, 1998.)
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Re: Failed Vegas Metro Poly
Reply #11 - Jan 15th, 2008 at 4:20am
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No Eric, I was speaking precisely to LVMPD and the fact that they tell everyone after the poly they failed, (a lie, as I understand it).

Each officer must make the value judgment on whether or not pursing a police career is worth jumping through the hurdles.  I also submit that a police applicant should be treated differently than a common criminal, where it is a valid interrogation techinique to lie to the suspect to illicit more information.


Oops, I thought your were painting broader strokes about law enforcement beaurocracy---sorry.
As someone with a degree of knowledge in the field of Human Resources, I must contend that agencies use trickery to reveal emotional and native intelligences all the time. All the time. They use psychology tests, they ask trick questions like this one asked of me once many years ago;

"So Eric, if you came home to discover that you had a large pink and yellow elephant in your  backyard, what would you do?"

I answered, "I would call animal control and the press, as I have read elephants kill hundreds of people per year, and this one is unique enough to garner media attention during the capture."

The interviewer appeared disappointed with my answer with a wince and promptly told me "No Eric, the correct answer was that you would build a giant privacy fence around the animal in order to charge money for visitors to see it."

Greedy bastards. That wasn't the last time trickery was used to exploit a weakness or even a mere nebulous mood I may have been in during a tough interview.

I believe that one could make a strong case for the whole of workforce hiring as being filled with subjectivity, projection, and injustice (don't get me started about women and minorities being discriminated against.)---without the help of an admittedly odd but revealing test called the polygraph.
  

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Re: Failed Vegas Metro Poly
Reply #12 - Jan 15th, 2008 at 7:53am
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EJohnson wrote on Jan 14th, 2008 at 1:07pm:

Sarge wrote some 2 weeks ago; 

Quote:
If a test subject answers all questions honestly, and does not withhold any information, how is he behaving unethically if he does long division or recites poetry in his head?


Looks like a ringing endorsement of mental countermeasures, as the official moral/ legal authority of antipolygraph.org has declared such "day dreaming---a visionary fantasy indulged in while awake---a mental diversion"----as ethical.


As I’m sure you are already aware, it is completely inaccurate to characterize the above-quoted question as “advice”.  I see you have now changed your characterization to “endorsement,” which is also inaccurate. 

My opinion is my opinion, no more and no less, and if you care to read through my previous posts (if you don’t want to you could ask Sancho, he already has) you would see that I have never given anyone any “advice” other than to tell the truth on their polygraph.  I have not suggested to anyone that they use countermeasures, and I have certainly never suggested to anyone that they lie.

Also, I don’t why you referred to me as the “official moral/legal authority” of this site.  I am a poster with an opinion, just like everyone else here.  The only people with “official” status on this site, I believe, are George and Gino.

Once again, I would ask that before you cite me as the source of oft-given advice you deem moronic, perhaps you could first ascertain if I have ever actually given such advice.
  

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Re: Failed Vegas Metro Poly
Reply #13 - Jan 15th, 2008 at 1:00pm
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Sergeant1107 wrote on Jan 15th, 2008 at 7:53am:
EJohnson wrote on Jan 14th, 2008 at 1:07pm:

Sarge wrote some 2 weeks ago; 

Quote:
If a test subject answers all questions honestly, and does not withhold any information, how is he behaving unethically if he does long division or recites poetry in his head?


Looks like a ringing endorsement of mental countermeasures, as the official moral/ legal authority of antipolygraph.org has declared such "day dreaming---a visionary fantasy indulged in while awake---a mental diversion"----as ethical.


As I’m sure you are already aware, it is completely inaccurate to characterize the above-quoted question as “advice”.  I see you have now changed your characterization to “endorsement,” which is also inaccurate. 

My opinion is my opinion, no more and no less, and if you care to read through my previous posts (if you don’t want to you could ask Sancho, he already has) you would see that I have never given anyone any “advice” other than to tell the truth on their polygraph.  I have not suggested to anyone that they use countermeasures, and I have certainly never suggested to anyone that they lie.

Also, I don’t why you referred to me as the “official moral/legal authority” of this site.  I am a poster with an opinion, just like everyone else here.  The only people with “official” status on this site, I believe, are George and Gino.

Once again, I would ask that before you cite me as the source of oft-given advice you deem moronic, perhaps you could first ascertain if I have ever actually given such advice.


Aw, c'mon now Sarge, don't be modest. I know of no other poster who manages to use the word "ethical" in every post, as if under contract to do so. "Decorated Lawman, experienced, respected, activist, and moral authority on dialogue(see signature)." And yet you blush. Shucks.

What Barry C is to polygraph Place, you are to antipolygraph. 
  

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Re: Failed Vegas Metro Poly
Reply #14 - Jan 15th, 2008 at 1:17pm
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Ej

My research indicates that the Stim test is used to convince the examinee that polygraph is accurate, scientific and is able to differentiate between truth and even a teensy lie.

The stim test is in the same vein as the card trick and the silent answer test. The latter being an exercise in gross stupidity.

The blind stim test cannot be compared to a GKT because the one holds no negative outcome for the examinee, whilst the other does.

No science is involved. Just plain old dupery. A scam-sham of note.


  
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