Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) LEO pre-emp polygraph, general questions (Read 24523 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box simolean
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 5
Joined: Nov 26th, 2007
LEO pre-emp polygraph, general questions
Nov 26th, 2007 at 9:53pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
N/M
« Last Edit: Nov 27th, 2007 at 3:28am by simolean »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6223
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: LEO pre-emp polygraph, general questions
Reply #1 - Nov 26th, 2007 at 10:16pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
For a detailed explanation of polygraph procedure, including examples of the kinds of questions typically asked during a law enforcement pre-employment polygraph examination, see Chapter 3 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector:

https://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf

Also, by way of example, you may be interested in the message thread, LAPD Polygraph Questions Disclosed.
  

George W. Maschke
I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time.
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box simolean
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 5
Joined: Nov 26th, 2007
Re: LEO pre-emp polygraph, general questions
Reply #2 - Nov 26th, 2007 at 11:40pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
N/M
« Last Edit: Nov 27th, 2007 at 3:28am by simolean »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box EJohnson
Limited (No Attachments)
Offline


Internet Countermeasures
Yields Failed Tests

Posts: 176
Joined: Oct 23rd, 2007
Re: LEO pre-emp polygraph, general questions
Reply #3 - Nov 26th, 2007 at 11:53pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Quote:
I qualify all of this with a strong distrust of most of the polygraph and psych evaluation stuff. It is probably a necessary evil, and maybe does do some good in weeding out a lot of chaff (with some wheat). But as a predictor of anything, it seems worthless. If all these recruits passing these tests were "clean" by virtue of passing them, there would be no need for full time I.A. officers/departments, and the amount of "police scandals" of all types would be negligible to non-existent.


Wrongo. Any test, be it a math test, or a psych test, whatever, is immutable----which means it is a snap shot of when you took the test, not a predicter of the future (necessarily.) The polygraph test is no exception---as they are seeking to see if you are honest now. Try taking a test you took as a senior in h.s. and see if you do as well, as that test too was a snap shot.
  

All men are mortal. Socrates was mortal. Therefore, &&all men are Socrates.-----Woody Allen  &&
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box simolean
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 5
Joined: Nov 26th, 2007
Re: LEO pre-emp polygraph, general questions
Reply #4 - Nov 27th, 2007 at 12:37am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
N/M
« Last Edit: Nov 27th, 2007 at 3:29am by simolean »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box EJohnson
Limited (No Attachments)
Offline


Internet Countermeasures
Yields Failed Tests

Posts: 176
Joined: Oct 23rd, 2007
Re: LEO pre-emp polygraph, general questions
Reply #5 - Nov 27th, 2007 at 2:12am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
simolean wrote on Nov 27th, 2007 at 12:37am:
EJohnson wrote on Nov 26th, 2007 at 11:53pm:


Wrongo. Any test, be it a math test, or a psych test, whatever, is immutable----which means it is a snap shot of when you took the test, not a predicter of the future (necessarily.) The polygraph test is no exception---as they are seeking to see if you are honest now. Try taking a test you took as a senior in h.s. and see if you do as well, as that test too was a snap shot.





and you make my point for me.

The test(s) do very little to verify or predict anything. The purpose of an "honesty evaluation" in terms of pre-employment is, by nature, not to see if you ever have been dishonest, or even are currently being dishonest, although that is what they test. They are to evaluate two things:

1. Truthfulness in past behaviors

and from that, 

2. to deduce the probability that one will be "honest" in the future.

Therefore, the snapshot is worthless.

Quote:
Try taking a test you took as a senior in h.s. and see if you do as well, as that test too was a snap shot.


I may do worse, or I may do better. If the test is on, for example, a particular geometry theorem, I will do worse. If it is a test on World History or Government, I will do better. Again, the snapshot analogy is worthless.

The polygraph test, no matter its original intent, seems to have morphed into something quite different. Do a google search on "police department scandal", and you might come to the conclusion that it has done little or nothing to prevent patently dishonest people, and those with loose moral and ethical boundaries from entering the ranks and file of the departments, and all the way to senior command positions.

Me, all I want to do is be a cop. I think I can be a good one. I look at the polygraph as a hurdle to jump to "get in". I want to be prepared for it intellectually and emotionally prior to taking it. Not because I place great value in its ability to catch me in lies or truths. But because it is a part of the process to get where I want to be.


Sooooooo, just how has polygraph "morphed" into something other than an immutable test? It seems to be the same ol test to me. The only caveat to the immutable aspect is that there are some very habitual behaviors that research shows are very difficult for people to cease---such as;
1. Sexual pariphilias/ Sexual addictions
2. Opiate addictions
3. Chronic alcoholism
4. Spousal abuse/ hetero-battery
5. Chronic rage disorder
6. Kleptomania 

Polygraph has proven to be very helpful in indicating these areas. Ask any police applicant examiner and they will be happy to tell you stories of obscenely il-fitted applicants trying to be lawman/law-women. 
On an aside, I believe that like all other stressful positions, acute dynamic risk factors (potential bad behaviors) become exaserbated with the lifestyle of being a police officer. It seems that many bad cops became bad after some time in the field, and under both great domestic and professional strife. Crappy pay, crappy hours, crappy cases, crappy criminals---and constant pressure on the marriage and children to subdivide compassion and mindfulness. Come to think of it, who would want to be a cop anyway?  Wink
« Last Edit: Nov 27th, 2007 at 2:30am by EJohnson »  

All men are mortal. Socrates was mortal. Therefore, &&all men are Socrates.-----Woody Allen  &&
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box simolean
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 5
Joined: Nov 26th, 2007
Re: LEO pre-emp polygraph, general questions
Reply #6 - Nov 27th, 2007 at 2:47am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
N/M
« Last Edit: Nov 27th, 2007 at 3:29am by simolean »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box EJohnson
Limited (No Attachments)
Offline


Internet Countermeasures
Yields Failed Tests

Posts: 176
Joined: Oct 23rd, 2007
Re: LEO pre-emp polygraph, general questions
Reply #7 - Nov 27th, 2007 at 2:59am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
simolean wrote on Nov 26th, 2007 at 11:40pm:
I have read, and am re-reading, the "e-book" via this site. 

My question has less to do with the format of the test, and more to do with the "intent" of the test questions.

Obviously, if I have (for example) smoked weed in the last few months, that would be a legitimate disqualifier for employment.

If I had smoked weed in the past, but not in the last 5, but in the last 10, it may or may NOT be an (obvious) disqualifier.

If I had smoked weed 20 years ago, but none since, I could not lie and say I had not smoked weed (which I did not), but (to my opinion) it is such a long time ago as to be irrelevant, as it was not repeated since.

I am trying to get a feel for the "intent" of the test in terms of how it, or the various agencies, look at age differences and life experiences between a 22 year old and a 42 year old, or if they truly do. I would imagine major felonies, discovered or not, are always relevant. If I kidnapped my neighbor and stole his car 15-20 years ago, that is quite a different animal than smoking some weed or driving home from a party with a good buzz on the same 15-20 years ago.

I qualify all of this with a strong distrust of most of the polygraph and psych evaluation stuff. It is probably a necessary evil, and maybe does do some good in weeding out a lot of chaff (with some wheat). But as a predictor of anything, it seems worthless. If all these recruits passing these tests were "clean" by virtue of passing them, there would be no need for full time I.A. officers/departments, and the amount of "police scandals" of all types would be negligible to non-existent.


OK, to answer your original question. Who the hell knows just what chronological order, content of questions and spans you will be recieving?  No examiner could answer that question with any specificity. You are here, trying to peek at your christmas gifts. Your examiner will review the questions and despite advice to the contrary by non-examiners----you should tell your examiner that you have posted questions on this site to relieve the pent-up pressure you will no doubt feel when your examiner starts to discuss countermeasures and/or this site. A recent study shows that you could be found deceptive by entering your test with a large napsack of secrets-----secrets like your little research venture on this site. G'luck
« Last Edit: Nov 27th, 2007 at 11:54am by EJohnson »  

All men are mortal. Socrates was mortal. Therefore, &&all men are Socrates.-----Woody Allen  &&
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box simolean
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 5
Joined: Nov 26th, 2007
Re: LEO pre-emp polygraph, general questions
Reply #8 - Nov 27th, 2007 at 3:21am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Aparently, you serve some strange purpose here, but display of coherent thought is not one of them.

I have not asked what "chronological order" questions will be in, but what depth of chronology the typical LEO polygrpah focuses upon. In "non-felony" issues are they interested in the last 5 years, 10 years, or 20 years?

It is really a simple question, easily answered, and without injections of assumed morality and omipotence . 

I am hopeful you are not a polygraph examiner. If you are, your conscience must be far more battered with your ineptitude than any that you accuse of being dishonest. I don't know about the science of polygraph, but it seems to attract some poor practioners of it. Your failure to read, or re-read the questions, and instead inject your own agenda into an opportunity to villify shows a lack of depth and professionalism.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box nopolycop
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 383
Joined: Oct 20th, 2007
Re: LEO pre-emp polygraph, general questions
Reply #9 - Nov 27th, 2007 at 3:37am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
simolean wrote on Nov 27th, 2007 at 3:21am:
Aparently, you serve some strange purpose here, but display of coherent thought is not one of them.


That is quite funny...  Grin
  

"Although the degree of reliability of polygraph evidence may depend upon a variety of identifiable factors, there is simply no way to know in a particular case whether a polygraph examiner's Conclusion is accurate, because certain doubts and uncertainties plague even the best polygraph exams."  (Justice Clarence Thomas writing in United States v. Scheffer, 523 U.S. 303, 118 S.Ct. 1261, 140 L.Ed.2d 413, 1998.)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box EJohnson
Limited (No Attachments)
Offline


Internet Countermeasures
Yields Failed Tests

Posts: 176
Joined: Oct 23rd, 2007
Re: LEO pre-emp polygraph, general questions
Reply #10 - Nov 27th, 2007 at 11:53am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
simolean wrote on Nov 27th, 2007 at 3:21am:
Aparently, you serve some strange purpose here, but display of coherent thought is not one of them.

I have not asked what "chronological order" questions will be in, but what depth of chronology the typical LEO polygrpah focuses upon. In "non-felony" issues are they interested in the last 5 years, 10 years, or 20 years?

It is really a simple question, easily answered, and without injections of assumed morality and omipotence . 

I am hopeful you are not a polygraph examiner. If you are, your conscience must be far more battered with your ineptitude than any that you accuse of being dishonest. I don't know about the science of polygraph, but it seems to attract some poor practioners of it. Your failure to read, or re-read the questions, and instead inject your own agenda into an opportunity to villify shows a lack of depth and professionalism.


No, your question is not easily answered, as different departments test for different biographical spans---5yrs, 10yrs, lifetimes---anyone's guess. Aside from your legit question---which George answered with a link, the discussion began to move towards polygraph utility, a common gravitational pull. I didn't mean to upset you per se----and the fact that you deleted your posts and ran off suggests you were upset. You asked a question regarding "a major US metropolitan police force"----a vague referance indeed. Even more assured, is that plastered all over this site is the fact that all police departments will accept applicants who have some drug use in their history. Individual HR departments set their own guidelines based on their own whims/ data pool.
Speaking of professionalism, you are seeking a career in the most trusted and reputably honest profession----law enforcement. Why are you at this anti-polygraph-in-law-enforcement website? You did notice the headliner "antipolygraph"----right? I am here in defense of polygraph, as there seems to be such lacking in this realm. 
  

All men are mortal. Socrates was mortal. Therefore, &&all men are Socrates.-----Woody Allen  &&
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Wheelman
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 8
Joined: Jan 26th, 2005
Re: LEO pre-emp polygraph, general questions
Reply #11 - Nov 27th, 2007 at 2:24pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
simolean,

I am an examiner for a law enforcement agency. Your question, at least the parts which were copied to other replies, are asked of me by various people. I tell these folks that it is very important that we are able to trust our employees. If a person cannot be honest with us and disclose things which may be embarassing to them, we have started off on the wrong foot.

Many people tell me things which may or may not be an automatic disqualifier in certain agencies. We are more concerned that the applicant is honest with us and has changed his ways since he made his earlier bad choices.

The facts of life are that people no longer try to be squeeky clean as they grow up. We try to get the best people we can to work here. We also know that everyone has skeletons in the closet. Usually those do not cause problems with the normal applicant, if they are disclosed.

We do have some drop dead disqualifiers and occasionally those things are discovered. The biggest disqualifier is dishonesty. Don't try to cover up what scares you about the questions. Just tell the truth and overcome your past.

Ejohnson, that is the most horrible signature that I can imagine.
  

Without truth, there is no honor.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box EJohnson
Limited (No Attachments)
Offline


Internet Countermeasures
Yields Failed Tests

Posts: 176
Joined: Oct 23rd, 2007
Re: LEO pre-emp polygraph, general questions
Reply #12 - Nov 27th, 2007 at 5:29pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Quote:
Ejohnson, that is the most horrible signature that I can imagine.

You mean to say that you can't think of a WORSE signature than "there's no devil, it's just God when he's drunk."---it is an old philosophical riddle of God's creation of the devil. I am however glad you are here so that you can represent the segment of the polygraph community that has no sense of irony.

p.s. I have been meaning to change it for a week now.
  

All men are mortal. Socrates was mortal. Therefore, &&all men are Socrates.-----Woody Allen  &&
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Sergeant1107
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 730
Location: Connecticut, USA
Joined: May 21st, 2005
Gender: Male
Re: LEO pre-emp polygraph, general questions
Reply #13 - Nov 28th, 2007 at 7:42am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
EJohnson wrote on Nov 27th, 2007 at 11:53am:
Speaking of professionalism, you are seeking a career in the most trusted and reputably honest profession----law enforcement. Why are you at this anti-polygraph-in-law-enforcement website? You did notice the headliner "antipolygraph"----right? I am here in defense of polygraph, as there seems to be such lacking in this realm. 


I am a trusted and honest law enforcement professional, and have been for more than ten years.

There is nothing unprofessional or dishonest about visiting this site or participating here.

I know from experience that the polygraph is not capable of detecting truth or deception.  Are you suggesting that, rather than speak my mind, it would be somehow more honorable or more professional to keep silent, simply because a percentage of my brother and sisters in law enforcement may not agree with me?  That’s nonsense.
  

Lorsque vous utilisez un argumentum ad hominem, tout le monde sait que vous êtes intellectuellement faillite.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box EJohnson
Limited (No Attachments)
Offline


Internet Countermeasures
Yields Failed Tests

Posts: 176
Joined: Oct 23rd, 2007
Re: LEO pre-emp polygraph, general questions
Reply #14 - Nov 28th, 2007 at 1:22pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
I am suggesting that you rethink taking a single data point---your own anecdotal experience---and applying it to an entire field. You do seem to relish any reported error---although you and others may give a sarrow-filled lip service over the casualties of errors------errors entirely outnumbered by successes. Once more, I and perhaps others still experience incredulousness over the fact that you eagerly assume that people claiming to be truthful and virtuous should use countermeasures on their polygraph----based only on their anonymous written claim. Once more, you levy--in not so many words---the label of fraud on thousands of fellow investigaters who either practice, or believe in the value (not just "prop" as you would label it) of the quirky yet effective art and science known as polygraph testing.
  

All men are mortal. Socrates was mortal. Therefore, &&all men are Socrates.-----Woody Allen  &&
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LEO pre-emp polygraph, general questions

Please type the characters that appear in the image. The characters must be typed in the same order, and they are case-sensitive.
Open Preview Preview

You can resize the textbox by dragging the right or bottom border.
Insert Hyperlink Insert FTP Link Insert Image Insert E-mail Insert Media Insert Table Insert Table Row Insert Table Column Insert Horizontal Rule Insert Teletype Insert Code Insert Quote Edited Superscript Subscript Insert List /me - my name Insert Marquee Insert Timestamp No Parse
Bold Italicized Underline Insert Strikethrough Highlight
                       
Change Text Color
Insert Preformatted Text Left Align Centered Right Align
resize_wb
resize_hb







Max 200000 characters. Remaining characters:
Text size: pt
More Smilies
View All Smilies
Collapse additional features Collapse/Expand additional features Smiley Wink Cheesy Grin Angry Sad Shocked Cool Huh Roll Eyes Tongue Embarrassed Lips Sealed Undecided Kiss Cry
Attachments More Attachments Allowed file types: txt doc docx ics psd pdf bmp jpe jpg jpeg gif png swf zip rar tar gz 7z odt ods mp3 mp4 wav avi mov 3gp html maff pgp gpg
Maximum Attachment size: 500000 KB
Attachment 1:
X