Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3  ReplyAdd Poll Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) What does it mean to "Pass" or "Fail" a polygraph exam? (Read 29366 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Barry_C
Very Senior User
****
Offline



Posts: 114
Joined: Oct 17th, 2007
Re: What does it mean to "Pass" or "Fail" a polygraph exam?
Reply #15 - Oct 31st, 2007 at 7:34pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Quote:
When you read 'research' that says for example that 8/10 examiners were consistent in correctly identifying the DI subject, what they dont usually tell you is that the individual examiner scores might
have varied by 50% or more. 


Why don't you tell me how scientists deal with and describe such data?   

Quote:
Scientific ? Yeah. Very.


Translation: "I don't know what I'm talking about."

Why the disinformation?  You clearly don't like me, and your emotions are getting ahead of the better part of your brain.  You haven't answered the question in a meaningful way.  Why is that?

Quote:
With that understood, is there an industry standard which determines how much variability one can see in the polygrams before an opinion of deception is necessary?  I have read of examiners reading other examiners charts and coming to different conclusions/opinions. 


There are three major scoring systems: Federal, Utah, and Backster.  Examiners using different scoring systems could come out with different scores, as each has different rules for assigning of scores, which are based on the differences in reactions between questions being compared.  Additionally, since numerical scoring is semi-objective, two examiners scores could differ to some degree.  What we've found (through research) is that scores may differ, but decisions tend to be the same.  (They are only perfect with a computer.)   

Some examiners score charts better than others, which is a problem with validity studies (as well as if you're being tested by an "examiner" who doesn't know what he's doing).  If nine examiners score the same data as NDI (and let's say that's ground truth) and one scores it as DI, is the polygraph technique 90% accurate?  When you look at the studies, you've got to try to filter through some of that stuff.

You've asked a question that could lead to days of discussion.  If you really want to know more, start reading.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box 1904
Ex Member


Re: What does it mean to "Pass" or "Fail" a polygraph exam?
Reply #16 - Oct 31st, 2007 at 8:27pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Barry_C said:
Quote:

There are three major scoring systems: Federal, Utah, and Backster.  Examiners using different scoring systems could come out with different scores, as each has different rules for assigning of scores, which are based on the differences in reactions between questions being compared. 


Examiners using the same scoring system often produce significantly different scores. We (I) would not be as misleading (as BC is ) to compare different scoring systems for the same set of charts.


Quote:

Additionally, since numerical scoring is semi-objective, two examiners scores could differ to some degree.  What we've found (through research) is that scores may differ, but decisions tend to be the same. 


Quote: "..two different examiners COULD differ to SOME degree.."
At last. Some honesty and acknowledgement. 
It is disingenuous to hide major scoring variances in the comfort of the 'cutoff' zone.

Quote:

(They are only perfect with a computer.)   


The computerised scoring systems are as far from perfect as the earth is from the moon.

Quote:
 
Some examiners score charts better than others, which is a problem with validity studies (as well as if you're being tested by an "examiner" who doesn't know what he's doing). 


So, when two examiners achieve different scores (not calls) remember to tell them that BC says neither
of them know what they're doing. Oh no. Sorry. They never tell you their scores. They are taught only to give a 'call' and to always agree with one another. 

Quote:

If nine examiners score the same data as NDI (and let's say that's ground truth) and one scores it as DI, is the polygraph technique 90% accurate?  When you look at the studies, you've got to try to filter through some of that stuff.


Would you like to be that tenth falsely accused ???
 

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Barry_C
Very Senior User
****
Offline



Posts: 114
Joined: Oct 17th, 2007
Re: What does it mean to "Pass" or "Fail" a polygraph exam?
Reply #17 - Oct 31st, 2007 at 8:44pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Quote:
Would you like to be that tenth falsely accused ???


I thought you said you were an examiner.  They were all accused.  That's why they were subjected to polygraph tests.

I think my third-grader could handle the rest of 1904's taunts, so I won't bother.  I've got to finish a polygraph report.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box 1904
Ex Member


Re: What does it mean to "Pass" or "Fail" a polygraph exam?
Reply #18 - Oct 31st, 2007 at 8:54pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Barry_C wrote on Oct 31st, 2007 at 8:44pm:
Quote:
Would you like to be that tenth falsely accused ???


I thought you said you were an examiner.  They were all accused.  That's why they were subjected to polygraph tests.

I think my third-grader could handle the rest of 1904's taunts, so I won't bother.  I've got to finish a polygraph report.


Now you are the victim of your own garble.

Quote:

If nine examiners score the same data as NDI (and let's say that's ground truth) and one scores it as DI, is the polygraph technique 90% accurate?


You said nine examiners and not nine nor ten subjects.
And btw- nine wrong out of ten calls is 90% inaccurate.
I think your 3rd grader could handle your career better than you do.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Barry_C
Very Senior User
****
Offline



Posts: 114
Joined: Oct 17th, 2007
Re: What does it mean to "Pass" or "Fail" a polygraph exam?
Reply #19 - Oct 31st, 2007 at 10:29pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Alright, against my better judgement I'll respond only because I'm curious as to what you're up to as nobody is that dumb.

Quote:
You said nine examiners and not nine nor ten subjects.


I said nine examiners scored the same NDI data.  From where do you think the data came?  Must I state it came from one subject?

Quote:
And btw- nine wrong out of ten calls is 90% inaccurate.


Thanks for that info.  I'll note it for future reference, but what does it have to do with this post?  Maybe you want to read it again more slowly?

I didn't state the whole argument because I thought people would be able to connect the dots on their own.  So far, only you have questions, but they seem to be from the lack of understanding the basic premise. 

In this you've added nothing to benefit the poser of the original question.  What is your point here?   

Whereas you seem to believe there is so much variability in scoring, how do you know if any of your calls were correct?  How many people did you harm with bad calls?  Have you ever tested your scoring ability?  What have you done for the polygraph community?  You blame the APA for not doing research as if the APA is an individual.  The APA is made up of its members, and each has a responsibility to move the profession ahead.  The inability of some to score charts is a problem, and many of us are addressing that issue.  After all, we're not in this to see how many errors we can make.   

What have you done to better yourself?  What have you done to better other examiners?  What have you published?  You spew out falsehoods and you demean, but what good have you done? Please enlighten us all as to why we should believe your still unsupported statements?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box nopolycop
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 383
Joined: Oct 20th, 2007
Re: What does it mean to "Pass" or "Fail" a polygraph exam?
Reply #20 - Oct 31st, 2007 at 11:05pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Barry_C wrote on Oct 31st, 2007 at 7:34pm:
[There are three major scoring systems: Federal, Utah, and Backster.  Examiners using different scoring systems could come out with different scores, as each has different rules for assigning of scores, which are based on the differences in reactions between questions being compared.  Additionally, since numerical scoring is semi-objective, two examiners scores could differ to some degree.  What we've found (through research) is that scores may differ, but decisions tend to be the same.  (They are only perfect with a computer.)  

Some examiners score charts better than others, which is a problem with validity studies (as well as if you're being tested by an "examiner" who doesn't know what he's doing).  If nine examiners score the same data as NDI (and let's say that's ground truth) and one scores it as DI, is the polygraph technique 90% accurate?  When you look at the studies, you've got to try to filter through some of that stuff.

You've asked a question that could lead to days of discussion.  If you really want to know more, start reading.


So, based on your answer it would be safe to say that there is no one industry standard as to how polygraphs are scored and that examinations can be scored a number of different ways, and that scoring of any given polygraph is susceptable to any number of errors?
  

"Although the degree of reliability of polygraph evidence may depend upon a variety of identifiable factors, there is simply no way to know in a particular case whether a polygraph examiner's Conclusion is accurate, because certain doubts and uncertainties plague even the best polygraph exams."  (Justice Clarence Thomas writing in United States v. Scheffer, 523 U.S. 303, 118 S.Ct. 1261, 140 L.Ed.2d 413, 1998.)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box 1904
Ex Member


Re: What does it mean to "Pass" or "Fail" a polygraph exam?
Reply #21 - Nov 1st, 2007 at 11:51am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Barry_C wrote on Oct 31st, 2007 at 10:29pm:
Alright, against my better judgement I'll respond only because I'm curious as to what you're up to as nobody is that dumb.

Quote:
You said nine examiners and not nine nor ten subjects.


I said nine examiners scored the same NDI data.  From where do you think the data came?  Must I state it came from one subject?

Quote:
And btw- nine wrong out of ten calls is 90% inaccurate.


Thanks for that info.  I'll note it for future reference, but what does it have to do with this post?  Maybe you want to read it again more slowly?

I didn't state the whole argument because I thought people would be able to connect the dots on their own.  So far, only you have questions, but they seem to be from the lack of understanding the basic premise. 

In this you've added nothing to benefit the poser of the original question.  What is your point here?  

Whereas you seem to believe there is so much variability in scoring, how do you know if any of your calls were correct?  How many people did you harm with bad calls?  Have you ever tested your scoring ability?  What have you done for the polygraph community?  You blame the APA for not doing research as if the APA is an individual.  The APA is made up of its members, and each has a responsibility to move the profession ahead.  The inability of some to score charts is a problem, and many of us are addressing that issue.  After all, we're not in this to see how many errors we can make.  

What have you done to better yourself?  What have you done to better other examiners?  What have you published?  You spew out falsehoods and you demean, but what good have you done? Please enlighten us all as to why we should believe your still unsupported statements?



Blather, bluster, drivel and nonsensical, off the topic bleating of a chart-rolling hack.
Amen
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Barry_C
Very Senior User
****
Offline



Posts: 114
Joined: Oct 17th, 2007
Re: What does it mean to "Pass" or "Fail" a polygraph exam?
Reply #22 - Nov 1st, 2007 at 7:58pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Quote:
So, based on your answer it would be safe to say that there is no one industry standard as to how polygraphs are scored and that examinations can be scored a number of different ways, and that scoring of any given polygraph is susceptable to any number of errors?


No.

If an examiner is using a validated scoring system according to its rules, agreement is very high as is accuracy.  You can see from reading this site though, that some who call themselves examiners don't know what is valid, understand the scientific literature, etc, while others do.  For those who don't know what they are doing, then yes, you're going to have problems.  We need to do a better job in the polygraph community of helping the consumer to learn which is which.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box 1904
Ex Member


Re: What does it mean to "Pass" or "Fail" a polygraph exam?
Reply #23 - Nov 3rd, 2007 at 2:02pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Barry_C wrote on Nov 1st, 2007 at 7:58pm:
Quote:
So, based on your answer it would be safe to say that there is no one industry standard as to how polygraphs are scored and that examinations can be scored a number of different ways, and that scoring of any given polygraph is susceptable to any number of errors?


No.

If an examiner is using a validated scoring system according to its rules, agreement is very high as is accuracy.  You can see from reading this site though, that some who call themselves examiners don't know what is valid, understand the scientific literature, etc, while others do.  For those who don't know what they are doing, then yes, you're going to have problems.  We need to do a better job in the polygraph community of helping the consumer to learn which is which.


Dear Readers,
The statistical symbols, the psychobabble, the constant haranguing
is intended to deflect the reality of polygraph.
It's reality is simple. It is an antiquated contraption that has as much
to do with lie-detection as a man jumping off a building has to do with flying.

Examiners have a desperate need to come to this board, to try
and convince you that researching the p/g and reading TLBTLD
will actually be harmful to you if you believe that physical and mental
CM's can assist you to pass a p/g test.

The fact is, the more you know about the p/g system and the more you 
know about the examiners verbal & other behaviours, so the p/g will
lose it's power over you. Destroy the myths and believe that it is a pseudo
science - and you are well on your way to passing.

P/g examiners like to quote the 'student-movie ticket study', which is about
the most pathetic project ever undertaken by anyone.

The statiscal and 'empirical evidence BS is just that, BS.

The human psyche is far too complex to predict with a set of statistics.
No two people react or respond the same in terms of psychophysiological
behaviours. There are no verified psychological theories, only hypotheses.

P/g examiners are dismissive of any research - and there is plenty of it -
carried out by suitably qualified academics - their knee  jerk reaction is to
immediately rubbish, disregard and disrespect any such research - but they
will babble on incessantly about a silly project such as the movie-tickets for students study.

The polygraph is a prop utilised to elicit admissions and confessions.
Most p/g examiners have developed investigative skills and together
with their intuition, should be able to discard their p/g and elicit confessions
in the course of an investigative interview.

Fact is, most admissions and confessions should be obtained during the pre-test
interview phase. Once a subject has denied a suspected activity a dozen times
during the course of an exam, he is quite unlikely to make confessions thereafter, as he first has to admit to lying in the test in addition to lying about the suspected activity.

Perhaps the modern day polygraphers have no investigative interviewing
skills and therefore have to rely on basic data collected by the most basic,
antiquated contraption - the polygraph.

It is a shame that in this modern day and age, that good people are denied jobs; that innocent people suffer humiliation; simply because investigators
have become lazy and inept.

Poor judicial systems, poor policing, protectionist laws do not and will never justify the use of polygraph. Primarily because it is not accurate. 




  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box pailryder
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 441
Joined: Jun 5th, 2006
Re: What does it mean to "Pass" or "Fail" a polygraph exam?
Reply #24 - Nov 3rd, 2007 at 6:25pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
1904,

IMHO, you could not be more wrong.
  

No good social purpose can be served by inventing ways of beating the lie detector or deceiving polygraphers.   David Thoreson Lykken
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Barry_C
Very Senior User
****
Offline



Posts: 114
Joined: Oct 17th, 2007
Re: What does it mean to "Pass" or "Fail" a polygraph exam?
Reply #25 - Nov 3rd, 2007 at 6:28pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
I rest my case.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Sergeant1107
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 730
Location: Connecticut, USA
Joined: May 21st, 2005
Gender: Male
Re: What does it mean to "Pass" or "Fail" a polygraph exam?
Reply #26 - Nov 4th, 2007 at 10:37am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Quote:
Dear Readers,
The statistical symbols, the psychobabble, the constant haranguing
is intended to deflect the reality of polygraph.
It's reality is simple. It is an antiquated contraption that has as much
to do with lie-detection as a man jumping off a building has to do with flying.

Examiners have a desperate need to come to this board, to try
and convince you that researching the p/g and reading TLBTLD
will actually be harmful to you if you believe that physical and mental
CM's can assist you to pass a p/g test.

The fact is, the more you know about the p/g system and the more you 
know about the examiners verbal & other behaviours, so the p/g will
lose it's power over you. Destroy the myths and believe that it is a pseudo
science - and you are well on your way to passing.

P/g examiners like to quote the 'student-movie ticket study', which is about
the most pathetic project ever undertaken by anyone.

The statiscal and 'empirical evidence BS is just that, BS.

The human psyche is far too complex to predict with a set of statistics.
No two people react or respond the same in terms of psychophysiological
behaviours. There are no verified psychological theories, only hypotheses.

P/g examiners are dismissive of any research - and there is plenty of it -
carried out by suitably qualified academics - their knee  jerk reaction is to
immediately rubbish, disregard and disrespect any such research - but they
will babble on incessantly about a silly project such as the movie-tickets for students study.

The polygraph is a prop utilised to elicit admissions and confessions.
Most p/g examiners have developed investigative skills and together
with their intuition, should be able to discard their p/g and elicit confessions
in the course of an investigative interview.


I have reached many of the same conclusions since becoming interested in the subject and reading the available material over the past couple of years.

Additionally I failed three pre-employment polygraphs with three different examiners, for three different reasons, all while telling the truth and not withholding any information.  Then I passed my fourth polygraph while giving all the same answers to all the same questions.

I believe that the polygraph is effective as an interrogation intimidator, provided the person being interrogated believes that the polygraph will detect lies.  However, I don’t believe it is capable of conclusively detecting deception.  

I believe that some polygraph examiners, like some police officers, are capable of interviewing a subject and drawing a conclusion as to that subject’s truthfulness. However, I do not believe that conclusion, absent a confession or some compelling physical evidence, should be sufficient to remove a person from the hiring process, or to take any other definitive action.  The polygraph examiner’s opinion of deception after the interview is no more scientifically valid than any other person’s opinion would be, and should not be given any more weight simply because the subject’s physiological reactions were charted during the interview.

I am of the opinion that at least some percentage of polygraph examiners know full well that using the polygraph for pre-employment screening produces very inaccurate results and results in far too many false positives as well as far too many false negatives.  However, aside from providing a vague caveat that no agency should disqualify an applicant based solely on polygraph results, it seems that very few (if any) examiners are willing to do anything about it.  I believe that most (if not all) examiners feel the polygraph is still worthwhile as a screening tool, because it sometimes elicits a confession about past behavior that was not discovered during the background check.  And the only reason it has that degree of utility is because the people who confess to such things truly believe that the polygraph is capable of detecting deception.

And that leaves the examiners with a dilemma.  If the polygraph examiners in this country come right out and admit that the polygraph, when used in pre-employment screening, is so inaccurate that it should not be used they will be undermining the one aspect of the polygraph that does provide utility in the screening process – that of eliciting confessions.  If all applicants were given credible information from their examiner prior to their test that the polygraph cannot detect truth or deception, the likelihood of any of those applicants confessing to something will decrease dramatically.

I think it is long past the time for such information to come from the polygraph examiners in this country.  I think it is far more reasonable, ethical, and provides far greater long-term benefits to admit the polygraph is incapable of detecting truth or deception any sort of rate approaching perfection, and is only useful in eliciting confessions from uninformed subjects.  The resulting loss of confessions would be more than offset, in my opinion, but the number of otherwise outstanding applicants who would no longer be summarily disqualified for no reason whatsoever.  And the hiring process would have far more due process and fairness in it, which certainly cannot be a bad thing when dealing with people who seek a position of public trust.

The number of qualified police applicants is not infinite, and the number of outstanding applicants is smaller still.  We cannot afford to let any more of the outstanding candidates be disqualified for no reason.

« Last Edit: Nov 4th, 2007 at 11:31am by Sergeant1107 »  

Lorsque vous utilisez un argumentum ad hominem, tout le monde sait que vous êtes intellectuellement faillite.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box nopolycop
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 383
Joined: Oct 20th, 2007
Re: What does it mean to "Pass" or "Fail" a polygraph exam?
Reply #27 - Nov 4th, 2007 at 2:37pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
What I don't understand, is what is so friggen special about being a cop?  I mean, there are many other professions that if infiltrated by dishonest individuals, perverts or whatever that can wreck as much or more havoc than being a cop.  Priests, teachers, doctors, (including the pseudo docs such as naturalpaths and chiropractors), all have a position of trust and power far exceeding the norm.  Why have cops been singled out?
  

"Although the degree of reliability of polygraph evidence may depend upon a variety of identifiable factors, there is simply no way to know in a particular case whether a polygraph examiner's Conclusion is accurate, because certain doubts and uncertainties plague even the best polygraph exams."  (Justice Clarence Thomas writing in United States v. Scheffer, 523 U.S. 303, 118 S.Ct. 1261, 140 L.Ed.2d 413, 1998.)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Barry_C
Very Senior User
****
Offline



Posts: 114
Joined: Oct 17th, 2007
Re: What does it mean to "Pass" or "Fail" a polygraph exam?
Reply #28 - Nov 4th, 2007 at 9:44pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
"I feel...."  "I believe...." "I am of the opinion...."  "I divined...." Who cares what you or I believe when there's scientific evidence to consider?  I've given you the math.  Did I err in my calculations?  If not, I've demonstrated how a valid test (as long as it's better than chance), is more fair in the end.  The only debate is now polygraph accuracy.

Sarge,

You took a screening exam.  They are not as reliable as a single-issue test, which, I think, we all agree.  If you took one and were a victim of the error rate, then taking the same test again and again is only likely to repeat the same "error."  Did the fourth examiner do something different, or don't you recall?

I have tested people using a multi-issue screening exam, and yes, they have significant reactions to some questions.  Follow-up testing has cleared them, but if I had just run the same screening exam, I'd likely have ended up with the same results.  (I've never crunched the numbers, but most of those with SRs on a screening exam have later admitted to failing to disclose something.  I'd venture a guess that it's closer to 100% than it is 90% who fall into that category, which is another reason agencies are willing to play the odds.)

Nopoly,

Are you suggesting polygraph tests for everybody?  You're going to make a lot of examiners happy.  Seriously though, it's not likely those people are going to be put into positions in which they could be blackmailed, for example. It's hard to hang an offense over a guy's head when his employer already knows about the issue.  That's just one reason though.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box nopolycop
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 383
Joined: Oct 20th, 2007
Re: What does it mean to "Pass" or "Fail" a polygraph exam?
Reply #29 - Nov 5th, 2007 at 2:49am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Barry_C wrote on Nov 4th, 2007 at 9:44pm:
" Seriously though, it's not likely those people are going to be put into positions in which they could be blackmailed, for example. It's hard to hang an offense over a guy's head when his employer already knows about the issue.  That's just one reason though.


I think you are confusing national security concerns (blackmail) with police work.  I would not think an chief would be worring about his newly hired cops being blackmailed.  Again, why is police work so special?  Can a crooked cop screw up worse than a crooked judge, prosecutor or even defense attorney?  Where I live, it seems like every third teacher is having sex with his or her students.  Perhaps polygraphing all teachers would be a very good idea.
  

"Although the degree of reliability of polygraph evidence may depend upon a variety of identifiable factors, there is simply no way to know in a particular case whether a polygraph examiner's Conclusion is accurate, because certain doubts and uncertainties plague even the best polygraph exams."  (Justice Clarence Thomas writing in United States v. Scheffer, 523 U.S. 303, 118 S.Ct. 1261, 140 L.Ed.2d 413, 1998.)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 
ReplyAdd Poll Send TopicPrint
What does it mean to "Pass" or "Fail" a polygraph exam?

Please type the characters that appear in the image. The characters must be typed in the same order, and they are case-sensitive.
Open Preview Preview

You can resize the textbox by dragging the right or bottom border.
Insert Hyperlink Insert FTP Link Insert Image Insert E-mail Insert Media Insert Table Insert Table Row Insert Table Column Insert Horizontal Rule Insert Teletype Insert Code Insert Quote Edited Superscript Subscript Insert List /me - my name Insert Marquee Insert Timestamp No Parse
Bold Italicized Underline Insert Strikethrough Highlight
                       
Change Text Color
Insert Preformatted Text Left Align Centered Right Align
resize_wb
resize_hb







Max 200000 characters. Remaining characters:
Text size: pt
More Smilies
View All Smilies
Collapse additional features Collapse/Expand additional features Smiley Wink Cheesy Grin Angry Sad Shocked Cool Huh Roll Eyes Tongue Embarrassed Lips Sealed Undecided Kiss Cry
Attachments More Attachments Allowed file types: txt doc docx ics psd pdf bmp jpe jpg jpeg gif png swf zip rar tar gz 7z odt ods mp3 mp4 wav avi mov 3gp html maff pgp gpg
Maximum Attachment size: 500000 KB
Attachment 1:
X