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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Ethics Complaint Against Louis I. Rovner
Oct 25th, 2007 at 6:04pm
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Dr. Louis I. Rovner


Today, 25 October 2007, I e-mailed the following ethics complaint to Donald Weinstein, chairperson of the American Polygraph Association's Ethics and Grievance Committee:

Quote:
25 October 2007

Van Trigtstraat 53
2597 VX The Hague
The Netherlands

maschke@antipolygraph.org

Mr. Donald Weinstein
Chairperson, Ethics & Grievance Committee
American Polygraph Association

directorthree@polygraph.org


Dear Mr. Weinstein:

I write to you in your capacity as chairperson of the American Polygraph Association (APA)’s Ethics & Grievance Committee to bring to your attention misconduct by Dr. Louis Irving Rovner, Ph.D. of Woodland Hills, California, a member of your organization. Dr. Rovner made false and defamatory statements about me during the course of a polygraph examination that he videorecorded for evidentiary purposes on 9 March 2007 and that was played in open court in the case of Ohio v. Sharma. Specifically, Dr. Rovner 1) deliberately conveyed the false notion to his examinee that I am a fugitive from justice who fled the United States to avoid criminal prosecution, and 2) falsely claimed that I sent him a computer virus (a federal crime). A rebuttal of Dr. Rovner’s defamatory allegations, including links to video of him making them, is available here:

http://antipolygraph.org/articles/article-052.shtml

I trust that you will promptly investigate this matter, and I look forward to receiving, in accordance with section 9.1.1.5 of the APA bylaws, notification from the General Chair “of whether disciplinary action was taken.”

Sincerely,

George W. Maschke
AntiPolygraph.org

PS: A copy of this complaint will be made available on AntiPolygraph.org.


The letter of complaint, sent as a PDF attachment, is attached to this post. The American Polygraph Association's response to this complaint, when received, will also be posted here.
« Last Edit: Oct 26th, 2007 at 10:30am by George W. Maschke »  

rovner-complaint-25-10-2007.pdf ( 195 KB | Downloads )

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Re: Ethics Complaint Against Louis I. Rovner
Reply #1 - Oct 25th, 2007 at 6:33pm
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It seems that Dr. Rovner is so used to lying when conducting a polygraph exam that he is hardly aware of when he is doing it anymore.
  

Lorsque vous utilisez un argumentum ad hominem, tout le monde sait que vous ętes intellectuellement faillite.
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: Ethics Complaint Against Louis I. Rovner
Reply #2 - Oct 26th, 2007 at 10:17am
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I have also sent the attached ethics complaint against Dr. Rovner to the American Psychological Association, membership of which he touts in marketing his polygraph services.
  

George W. Maschke
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
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Re: Ethics Complaint Against Louis I. Rovner
Reply #3 - Oct 27th, 2007 at 9:54pm
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Okay, I can't help myself.  I'm anal this way, and I've seen the error here before.  You don't use a professional and academic title together, so Dr. X, Ph.D. is wrong.  It's a red flag indicating, as best I can tell, one of three things: 1) the "doctor" has a fake degree, 2) he's an egomaniac, or 3) he made it through school by the skin of his teeth (as he's forgotten the most important course he took: English Composition).  Okay, I'm pushing it a little, but this is one of those things that drives me crazy.  I'm sorry for the rant.  I'm seeing this more and more, but it's still wrong.

By the way, I'm off topic here, but when the APA banned phony "degrees," there were eight people who could no longer boast such titles.  The polygraph community is trying to put an end to such claims, contrary to the claims made here so often.

Just to be clear (during my rant) Dr. Rovner's doctorate is very much real, but he's either "Lou Rovner, Ph.D." or "Dr. Lou Rovner."
  
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Re: Ethics Complaint Against Louis I. Rovner
Reply #4 - Oct 28th, 2007 at 5:11am
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Barry,

Thank you for your stylistic note. It is not my intention to cast any doubt upon the authenticity of Lou Rovner's doctoral degree.

I note that in addition to being listed as a member of the American Polygraph Association, you are also the chaplain of the American Association of Police Polygraphists. Do you think Dr. Rovner's conduct is ethically acceptable?

PS: With regard to the American Polygraph Association's supposed ban on phony Ph.D.s, I note that all three of the APA members whom AntiPolygraph.org has documented as not having earned a doctoral degree from an accredited university, that is, Ed Gelb, James Allan Matte, and Michael Martin, continue to falsely hold themselves out the public as Ph.D.s in marketing their polygraph services, and the APA doesn't consider this to be a violation of its ethics policy.
  

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Re: Ethics Complaint Against Louis I. Rovner
Reply #5 - Oct 28th, 2007 at 10:19pm
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As chaplain, it would be unethical for me to speak publicly on that topic one way or the other (because I'd either have to speak for the AAPP - with inside information - or I'd have to speak without sufficient information, either of which would be wrong).  Moreover, as chaplain, I try to be more of a "Switzerland."  If Lou did engage in unethical activity, I'd be on the "let's fix it, Lou" side of things, and a public chastising wouldn't help me there.  (Plus, and the big reason, I'd have to first watch the entire video to form an opinion, and I'm not up to that one right now.)

I will say there are a number of people who have reported receiving a virus (after registering and posting on this site) that have been traced back to the Netherlands, and it has become almost common knowledge in the polygraph community that such is a risk of visiting here.  Right or wrong, there are many who really believe you were behind those.  If Lou said he received a virus from you, that wouldn't surprise me, and I would believe he believed it.

I have received a couple strange emails since registering here? Coincidence?  I don't know.  No virus attempts yet, but I'll let you know.
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: Ethics Complaint Against Louis I. Rovner
Reply #6 - Oct 29th, 2007 at 6:30am
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Barry,

I can understand your reluctance to make a pronouncement regarding this specific case. Perhaps you could address the more general question: Is it ethically acceptable for a member of the American Polygraph Association to make false and defamatory statements about a critic?

You write:

Quote:
I will say there are a number of people who have reported receiving a virus (after registering and posting on this site) that have been traced back to the Netherlands, and it has become almost common knowledge in the polygraph community that such is a risk of visiting here.  Right or wrong, there are many who really believe you were behind those.  If Lou said he received a virus from you, that wouldn't surprise me, and I would believe he believed it.


Let this whisper campaign end here and now. I have never sent anyone a virus or any other form of malware. Let any who would claim otherwise state so openly and present proof.

Quote:
I have received a couple strange emails since registering here? Coincidence? I don't know. No virus attempts yet, but I'll let you know.


Whatever "strange emails" you may have received, they in no way resulted from your having registered on this message board.
  

George W. Maschke
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
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Re: Ethics Complaint Against Louis I. Rovner
Reply #7 - Oct 29th, 2007 at 11:19am
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Quote:
Barry,

I can understand your reluctance to make a pronouncement regarding this specific case. Perhaps you could address the more general question: Is it ethically acceptable for a member of the American Polygraph Association to make false and defamatory statements about a critic?

You write:

Quote:
I will say there are a number of people who have reported receiving a virus (after registering and posting on this site) that have been traced back to the Netherlands, and it has become almost common knowledge in the polygraph community that such is a risk of visiting here.  Right or wrong, there are many who really believe you were behind those.  If Lou said he received a virus from you, that wouldn't surprise me, and I would believe he believed it.


Let this whisper campaign end here and now. I have never sent anyone a virus or any other form of malware. Let any who would claim otherwise state so openly and present proof.

Quote:
I have received a couple strange emails since registering here? Coincidence? I don't know. No virus attempts yet, but I'll let you know.


Whatever "strange emails" you may have received, they in no way resulted from your having registered on this message board.


George, need I remind you that I attempted to extinguish the "whisper campaign" regarding malware by posting a very objective poll---which rather than being placed in the "discarded post" was actually deleted. Such a poll would have been healthy for both sides. Further, your denial of having sent malware either intentionally or not is simply either a lie, or a statement made in ignorance---as it is possible to be unaware of such bots as a host. I would suggest you repost my original poll---as I will vote that I have not recieved malware from this site. I have however recieved alot of malware on weather websites though (I now know they are infamous for such), and I don't need to prove such allegations to those carriers.
  

All men are mortal. Socrates was mortal. Therefore, &&all men are Socrates.-----Woody Allen  &&
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: Ethics Complaint Against Louis I. Rovner
Reply #8 - Oct 29th, 2007 at 11:45am
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Eric,

Your "poll" offering readers a selection of innuendo laden questions was no way to go about extinguishing a whisper campaign, and given your posting history on this site (both under your real name and as palerider/Paradiddle), I don't believe for a moment that such was your true purpose.

I reiterate: I have never sent a virus or other malware to anyone (nor has any computer owned by me ever become infected with malware that might have sent such unbeknownst to me). Lou Rovner's claim that I sent him a virus is completely false. If anyone else claims to have received a virus or other malware from me, let such persons openly say so and present proof.
  

George W. Maschke
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
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Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
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Re: Ethics Complaint Against Louis I. Rovner
Reply #9 - Oct 29th, 2007 at 12:27pm
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My questions were not "innuendo laden" as some of the questions were provided to debunk or dissect such accusations as being unfounded---thus seperating known fact of malware infiltration with "unsubstantiated suspicions" of infection. Your statement of disbelief is heresay---as well as the rest---as you and I both know you probably didn't even read the poll---as you were not online when I posted it and it was deleted within minutes. If one wants to read the entirety of Paradiddle's posts, you will see that not all of my posts were patently obstructive and/ or aggressive. Paradiddle wrote the truth plain and simple---and sardonic remarks concerning the absolute folly and/or lunacy of posters does not constitute a lack of integrity. I  am all too happy to call a moron a moron and a bullshitter a bullshitter. Admit it, you are clearly still upset that I called your poetry sophomoric, and you have demonstrated to all the inability to laugh at yourself---and even your closest allies will acknowledge your apperent lack of humor-----making mere jokes into ridecule----two very seperate things. In retrospect, I should have refrained from feeling a sense of indignation over your support for the disengagement and manipulation of sexual predators in psychotherapeutic treatment---thus evoking a sense that such overt acts of social prescriptive endangerement deserves to be lampooned when such a person attempts the refined and sensetive art of poetry.

I am still no less angry at your clumsy activism. Stick to the truth and you will get your wishes. Keep up the Karl Rove tactics and you will have wasted your life, and you will find that others will swiftboat you instead of the other way around. Post the goddamn poll and stop lying---or admit that Gino or some other site administrator got scared and deleted it without measured thought. The poll was not a smear, and it was deleted withing 5-10 minutes of my posting it---and you were not even online at the time. I smell both fear and horseshit.
« Last Edit: Oct 29th, 2007 at 5:46pm by EJohnson »  

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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: Ethics Complaint Against Louis I. Rovner
Reply #10 - Nov 23rd, 2007 at 10:35am
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The American Polygraph Association (APA) will not consider my ethics complaint against Louis I. Rovner of Los Angeles. APA General Counsel Gordon L. Vaughan, in a letter dated 20 November 2007, writes that the APA has "declined to institute an investigation" of my well-documented complaint that Rovner, during the course of a polygraph examination that he videorecorded for evidentiary purposes, "1) deliberately conveyed the false notion to his examinee that I am a fugitive from justice who fled the United States to avoid criminal prosecution, and 2) falsely claimed that I sent him a computer virus (a federal crime)."

The American Polygraph Association's unwillingness to consider this ethics complaint is reminiscent of its refusal last year to investigate an ethics complaint against APA past president Ed Gelb for falsely holding himself out to the public as a Ph.D. in marketing his services.

The full text of the APA's reply to my complaint against Lou Rovner follows (the original PDF letter is also attached):

Quote:
November 20, 2007

VIA E-MAIL ONLY To:
maschke@antipolygraph.org

George W. Maschke
Van Trigtstraat 53
2597 VX The Hague
The Netherlands

re: American Polygraph Association

Dear Mr. Maschke:

As you may recall from our prior correspondence, I am General Counsel for the American Polygraph Association ("APA). I have been provided a copy of your October 25, 2007, letter requesting a disciplinary investigation regarding APA member Louis Rovner. Therein, you allege that Louis Rovner made defamatory statements about you during the course of a polygraph examination.

The APA does not, of course, condone communications which may constitute the tort of defamation. The question of whether such a tort has been committed is, however, one better left to detailed fact-finding and application of the law that is available through civil courts. As such, the Chairman of the APA's Grievance and Ethics Committee has advised me that he has declined to institute an investigation of this matter. I concur in the Chairman's conclusion.

Although not a controlling factor in the determination that your complaint is better addressed by civil courts, it is worth noting that your motivation in addressing this complaint regarding Louis Rovner to the APA is suspect. It is my personal opinion that you have brought this complaint, not for purposes of enhancing the polygraph profession, but rather as an attempt to discredit persons who take a view regarding polygraph that is contrary to your own. Indeed, that this is your motivation is supported by the post-script of your October 25, 2007, letter, in which you announce that the complaint would be posted on your antipolygraph.org website.

Sincerely,

VAUGHAN & DeMURO

Gordon L. Vaughan

GLV/kmm


The APA website declares: "The Ethics and Grievance Committee receives and expeditiously, fairly and impartially investigates all allegations of misconduct against members of this Association." Apparently, this does not apply when the complainant is a critic of polygraphy.
  

George W. Maschke
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
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Re: Ethics Complaint Against Louis I. Rovner
Reply #11 - Nov 30th, 2007 at 1:57pm
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THE ETHICS AND GRIEVANCES OFFICER

IS STILL SEARCHING

FOR

THE RULES....
  

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Re: Ethics Complaint Against Louis I. Rovner
Reply #12 - Dec 3rd, 2007 at 11:02pm
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Clifton,

I read of an ethics complaint against you back a ways.  How did that turn out?  (Maybe I can dig it up if you don't recall it.)

I'm trying to figure out if you really care, or if you're just throwing mud.  If true, and you learned from your errors, then you might have some credibility here.

The APA has decided this is not something they could adequately address.  Why not try the civil courts, or is that a tacit admission that this is without merit?
  
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Re: Ethics Complaint Against Louis I. Rovner
Reply #13 - Dec 4th, 2007 at 7:27am
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Barry_C wrote on Dec 3rd, 2007 at 11:02pm:
Clifton,

I read of an ethics complaint against you back a ways.  How did that turn out?  (Maybe I can dig it up if you don't recall it.)


Ask the APA. Slupski tried and failed. Gordon allegedly filed a complaint - but it never came to me formally - only via the rumour mill.

Quote:
I'm trying to figure out if you really care, or if you're just throwing mud.  If true, and you learned from your errors, then you might have some credibility here.

Do you think i give flying f** what you think ?
God forbid

Quote:
The APA has decided this is not something they could adequately address.  Why not try the civil courts, or is that a tacit admission that this is without merit?


The APA told gordon HE (not me Noddy) would have to apply to SA courts if he desired any action against me. what you or APA or gordon "think" is of no consequence.

George - a bit sad that you admonish me to stop haranguing BC but yet you allow him to use this forum for personal mud slinging.

Enough is enough - over and out
  
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Re: Ethics Complaint Against Louis I. Rovner
Reply #14 - Dec 4th, 2007 at 8:25pm
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Quote:
Quote:
The APA has decided this is not something they could adequately address.  Why not try the civil courts, or is that a tacit admission that this is without merit?


The APA told gordon HE (not me Noddy) would have to apply to SA courts if he desired any action against me. what you or APA or gordon "think" is of no consequence.


That was not for you 1904.  That was back on point for George.  Slander - which you accuse Dr. Rovner of committing - is civil tort, and the courts are where those are tried.  If you truly feel wronged, then why just go the APA route, which appears to be a dead end?
  
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