raymond.nelson wrote on Oct 25^th, 2007 at 1:07am:


I didn't suggest for a moment that the polygraph can read minds. It can't. My point is that lie detection is a kind of mind-reading task. When polygraphers claim they can detect lies/deception, they are in essence claiming to be capable of a kind of mind-reading.

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The title of Professor Iacono's article is "Forensic 'Lie Detection': Procedures Without Scientific Basis." I find it mind-boggling that you could conclude that this article somehow supports the notion that polygraphy does have a scientific basis.

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Your analogy is inapt. Firefighting is not, as polygraphy purports to be, a diagnostic test. While firefighters are capable of extinguishing fires, polygraphers are not capable of detecting deception, and as I observed earlier, simply telling the truth provides no guarantee that one will pass a polygraph examination. If it did, this website would not exist.

I actually had two types of theories, but the first has seemed to have been lost in this debate. My first one was that I have heard from a source that even using countermeasures on a few control's would be in most cases sufficient to pass a pre-employment polygraph, being that would be enough to make a camparison between R, Ir, and control. My second thought was would it be possible to take a polygraph and pass by simply knowing that neither the polygrapher nor the polygraph machine could actually detect any lies; Thus, losing all fear and little to no reaction. Also could be sleep deprived also aid in this, by zoning you out of the situation and making your reactions to the questions at hand less pronounced?
             P.S. I love this site. Intelligent people making for intelligent debates.

policeHopeful wrote on Oct 25^th, 2007 at 5:30pm:


You're talking about adrenal depletion. Regardless of why you would want to do that, it is an effective,
non-detectable countermeasure.

Barry_C wrote on Oct 28^th, 2007 at 10:59pm:


In one of my earlier posts on either AP or PP I stated that the APA are not known for commissioning research on aspects that would certainly highlight failings in the polygraph testing scenario.

I would therefore be surprised to find such research (iro Adrenal Depletion) but perhaps a medical definition would satisfy you..after all biology and medicine are sciences. 

PS - I remember N Gordon
(a well known Instructor with a long list of credentials ) stating that extreme adrenal depletion will most
likely produce an Inc and can produce ndi's. 

It is not only the subject that produces incon's. Inadequate examiners also produce incon's. 

If a final incon score is on the '+' side off the cutoff range, which way would you call it?
If you ran a 2nd test that was still incon as above, which way would you call it or would
you simply DQ the subject on the basis that anyone who produces an incon must surely
be practicing CM's?

Do you ever have incon's?


The Medical Definition:
The most common form of adrenal imbalance is overuse of the adrenal glands, resulting in adrenal exhaustion. This condition is often associated with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and it is implicated in a number of maladies, including hormone imbalances, poor metabolism and digestion, blood sugar imbalances, and heart disease.

Physical and emotional stress, excess use of stimulants (including caffeine), and viruses (including herpes virus 6 and Epstein-Barr virus) can all cause adrenal exhaustion.

When you have to drink more and more caffeine and artificial stimulants to get the same effects, you are on the path toward adrenal exhaustion. At first, you may experience an accelerated energy that is often “speedy” or “wired.” This is a sign of excess cortisol and other hormones activated by the adrenal glands pumping adrenaline into your system. 

When your adrenal glands are exhausted, cortisol is absent and symptoms may include:
•      Constant fatigue, no matter how much sleep you get 
•      Difficulty mustering energy for normal functions 
•      Drowsiness 
•      Light-headedness 
•      Mental cloudiness 
•      Low blood sugar 

Adrenal imbalance is, by definition, a hormone imbalance. The adrenal glands produce several hormones essential to our energy levels and our “fight or flight” reactions in case of emergency. The most important of these is cortisol, the hormone that helps us deal with stress and fear. These hormones affect other chemicals in the body, including blood sugar, sodium, potassium, and magnesium, creating a chain reaction within the body. 

Barry_C wrote on Oct 30^th, 2007 at 5:30pm:


Yes. And you have no have no facts or research to dispute it either.

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The poly industry (that includes you) is well aware of the effects of adrenal depletion and pharmaceutical CM's. Wont you tell us your opinion; why do you think there has never been any Published research in respect thereof? The industry carries out silly research on TLBTLD induced CM
using students and movie tickets -- why not on the more serious and threatening CM's? 

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What in your opinion would you consider to be the best scenario for a lying subject - an Inc or a DI ?
I dont think it is clear to you after all.

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You answered / addressed this one in your previous sentence. Dont be so obtuse. For someone who professes to be highly intelligent, highly qualified and knows "a lot" about forensic science, you come
across as petulant and immature.

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Perhaps if you were more mature you would approach a debate like an adult.

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He's one of your peers. Why dont you ask him to sing from the same sheet as you?
Personally, I dont give a damn my dear.

Barry_C wrote on Oct 31^st, 2007 at 1:27pm:


If you say so, then it must be true. Those who ACTUALLY do know would probably disagree with you.

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I thought that your ultra quick mind would have recognised sarcasm when it flapped around your face.
Maybe you're just having a slow decade.

It's not my assertion at all. Adrenal depletion and its effects on human physiology are extremely well documented. (Google: Adrenal Depletion )
Furthermore, the effects of adrenal depletion with regard to polygraphy are well known, except to you
evidently. 
Tip: Ask a real psychophysiologist. Oh dear. You don't know any do you ?

Barry_C wrote on Oct 31^st, 2007 at 7:42pm:


If it's your mouth, both feet.

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You just invented the 'no ability to react' part. AD does not produce perfect baselines. It significantly reduces responses to the greatest threat stimulus. Therefore it is a pretty good CM.

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Not so. I just want you to try and be honest and admit that you know perfectly well that AD does significantly reduce polygraph efficacy. I know it. You know it. The polygraph industry has never published (although they may have commissioned as much) research that negates polygraphy.
The one body of research that was not funded or commissioned by the pg industry, namely the NAS study - soundly debunked all the research that you rely on, as biased, unscientific and unreliable.

Is that one of the reasons Dr Drew Richardson is not your flavour of the month?

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The above statement is contrary to the fundamental teachings of all polygraph instructors. 
Apparently Barry_C has reinvented the pseudoscience of polygraphy.

Barry_C wrote on Oct 31^st, 2007 at 8:50pm:



Your petty and demeaning statements lack any weight.
You are floundering in in your pool of contradiction.

Nice beating you.

Now hurry. Your 3rd grader wants to teach you some life lessons.