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What are my rights to see my polygraph results? (Read 8680 times)
Paste User Name in Quick Reply Box Ludovico
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Re: What are my rights to see my polygraph results?
Reply #15 - Sep 30th, 2007 at 4:20pm
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can you (or any other polygrapher here) offer a good faith reason for not releasing the polygraph records so that they may be independently reviewed?


No.

Processes like QC, peer review, and second opinions exist in all professions. What's the trouble here? I have requested and reviewed polygraph data from police agencies. Police agencies and prosecutors have requested and reviewed my examination data. 

Quote:
Those suspected of a crime have little or nothing to gain ... <snip>


There you are wrong. I've worked on a few cases, as recently as the past few days, in which a case was not filed (dismissed) after reviewing polygraph data with the prosecutors and investigators. 

At times the subject cannot pass the test, and those results might not be released due to privilege. (Like it or not, even the guilty have a right to a defense, and we probably wouldn't want it any other way.) Even those results are helpful, because the attorney can sometimes better redirect a very costly impulse to fight an unwinable fight - that is often a cruel and punishing experience for the victim of the crime. Offenders sometimes need help, just not legal help. Accused persons are sometimes guilty. In the case of sexual deviancy, my personal opinion is that most people  are not proud (in fact deeply embarassed and disturbed) by their unmanageable urges. Those folks are better off figuring out how to get themselves connected with a supervision and treatment system that will help them be better people - or lock them up if they will not do so. There are, of course a few people who are quite happy with what they are doing, and those are the folks we like to ID correctly and remove from your neighborhoods.

No-body thinks the legal system works perfectly, but we sure wouldn't want to throw the whole thing away.

This site is an example of a one-dimensional ethical process - so embroiled in personal experience and personal concern as a basis for sweeping social recommendations that it can't even navigate the ethical dilemmas with any articulate recognition of all of the issues.

Its not a discussion here, its really just a circus. But this did seem important.

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Re: What are my rights to see my polygraph results?
Reply #16 - Sep 30th, 2007 at 5:01pm
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Ludovico

"Offenders sometimes need help, just not legal help. Accused persons are sometimes guilty. In the case of sexual deviancy, my personal opinion is that most people  are not proud (in fact deeply embarassed and disturbed) by their unmanageable urges. Those folks are better off figuring out how to get themselves connected with a supervision and treatment system that will help them be better people - or lock them up if they will not do so. There are, of course a few people who are quite happy with what they are doing, and those are the folks we like to ID correctly and remove from your neighborhoods". 

This is practically what I posted a while back. Therefore I am in total agreement with you. I am sure you will agree there are some who are so messed up in the head that they belong in a mental or correctional system and never be on the streets. If a program works, I am all for it. However, offenses that harm another person, especiall a child, does not deserve a second chance at rehabilition.

I am glad to see your intelligent post.
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Re: What are my rights to see my polygraph results?
Reply #17 - Sep 30th, 2007 at 7:36pm
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This is practically what I posted a while back. Therefore I am in total agreement with you. I am sure you will agree there are some who are so messed up in the head that they belong in a mental or correctional system and never be on the streets. If a program works, I am all for it. However, offenses that harm another person, especiall a child, does not deserve a second chance at rehabilition.


Agreed.

I'll look for your post.

Fortunately, and optimistically, I believe the number of persons who are truly irredeemable to be small. That is in part a personal choice, on my part, to believe that - having heard detailed descriptions of just about every imaginable offense and against both children and adults, and having spent countless hours with victims of severe (life-altering) abuse. It does no good to give up on human decency. The real challenge is for professionals to get good at telling the difference between folk who want to do better, and those who don't care or cannot do better. None of the tools available to professionals in the social sciences is perfect - we all know that - including all personality, intelligence and risk assessment measures. What we also know is that professionals make better professional decisions when they are trained to use data from good, even if imperfect, tools. That's called "incremental validity" for you would-be scientists out there.

No good comes from simple moralizing. We have to learn what to do. Part of that there learning what to do means learning to use professional authority and professional tools carefully.

In this case, it would be interesting to know whether Mattwings was attempting to alter the test result, of either test. It would be interesting to see the data from both examinations. It would be very rare, in my experience, for there to be no identifiable reason for test results to come out that way. There is a reason - we simply may not yet know what those reasons are. Maybe someone wants to know. Maybe someone doesn't want us to know. If not, then you do have to wonder why not.

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Re: What are my rights to see my polygraph results?
Reply #18 - Sep 30th, 2007 at 8:25pm
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Ludovico wrote on Sep 30th, 2007 at 7:36pm:
Snip...

None of the tools available to professionals in the social sciences is perfect - we all know that - including all personality, intelligence and risk assessment measures. What we also know is that professionals make better professional decisions when they are trained to use data from good, even if imperfect, tools. That's called "incremental validity" for you would-be scientists out there.

snip...

Care to also educate us on:

a) internal validity - does the polygraph test eliminate confounding variables that might influence its outcome?
b) construct validity - does the polygraph test measure deception?
c) content validity - does the the polygraph test measure the representative behaviors of deception that it is trying to measure?
d) ecological validity - is the polygraph test extendable to all populations?

Just an FYI before you answer, the National Academy of Science concluded that the CQT polygraph lacked all these despite nearly a century of research...

So you can harp all you want about incremental validity, if a psychometric test does not have internal, construct, content, and ecological validity then it is simply pseudoscience...
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Re: What are my rights to see my polygraph results?
Reply #19 - Sep 30th, 2007 at 8:42pm
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You askin', or tellin' boss?

c'mon - you gotta chime in with the intellectual bully BS - wouldn't want to feel left out now, would ya, smartie.

If my memory serves me the NRC/NAS concluded the polygraph differentiates truth-tellers from deceivers at rates well above chance, though well below perfection.

Translates to "Duh!"

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Re: What are my rights to see my polygraph results?
Reply #20 - Sep 30th, 2007 at 8:54pm
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Ludovico wrote on Sep 30th, 2007 at 8:42pm:
You askin', or tellin' boss?

c'mon - you gotta chime in with the intellectual bully BS - wouldn't want to feel left out now, would ya, smartie.

If my memory serves me the NRC/NAS concluded the polygraph differentiates truth-tellers from deceivers at rates well above chance, though well below perfection.

Translates to "Duh!"



You guys really have nothing more than ad hominem attacks and quote mining, do you?

You always leave out the fact that the "well above chance" quote was about specific incident polygraphs which are closely related to the cognitively-based guilty knowledge test. The GKT is based on sound science unlike the emotionally-based CQT. For screening applications, the CQT polygraph does not have any validity whatsoever...

And I apologize if you feel intellectually intimidated. It's been my experience that that additional education helps with that...
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Re: What are my rights to see my polygraph results?
Reply #21 - Sep 30th, 2007 at 9:00pm
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Ludovico wrote on Sep 30th, 2007 at 8:42pm:
You askin', or tellin' boss?

c'mon - you gotta chime in with the intellectual bully BS - wouldn't want to feel left out now, would ya, smartie.

If my memory serves me the NRC/NAS concluded the polygraph differentiates truth-tellers from deceivers at rates well above chance, though well below perfection.

Translates to "Duh!"


I believe the quote you are referring to in the NAS report referred only to specific incident testing, and only to test subjects who were untrained in countermeasures.

Quote:
Notwithstanding the quality of the empirical research and the limited ability to generalize to real-world settings, we conclude that in populations of examinees such as those represented in the polygraph research literature, untrained in countermeasures, specific-incident polygraph tests for event-specific investigations can discriminate lying from truth telling at rates well above chance, though well below perfection.

Accuracy may be highly variable across situations. The evidence does not allow any precise quantitative estimate of polygraph accuracy or provide confidence that accuracy is stable across personality types, sociodemographic groups, psychological and medical conditions, examiner and examinee expectancies, or ways of administering the test and selecting questions. In particular, the evidence does not provide confidence that polygraph accuracy is robust against potential countermeasures. There is essentially no evidence on the incremental validity of polygraph testing, that is, its ability to add predictive value to that which can be achieved by other methods. 


Since the successful use of countermeasures is, by definition, undetectable, it seems impossible to determine if the subject is trained in countermeasures.  If that determination cannot be made with certainty, the "well above chance" accuracy rate is moot.
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Lorsque vous utilisez un argumentum ad hominem, tout le monde sait que vous ętes intellectuellement faillite.
 
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Re: What are my rights to see my polygraph results?
Reply #22 - Sep 30th, 2007 at 9:35pm
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Quote:
And I apologize if you feel intellectually intimidated. It's been my experience that that additional education helps with that...


Well. Golly gee, boss. Someday I gotta get me one-a them there edumacations.

You didn't seriously come here for me to educate you did you? You came here to flex some mathematical muscle or sompin' - or to get me to behave (if all else fails I'll get mod-slapped again - that'll teach me).

You and I have both read the report.

I seem to recall something else they said about countermeasures not working... and perhaps even increasing the likelihood of not passing...

Hey!

You left your fly open, and your dribbling on your pants. Zip it up in public, huh pal.

(you checked. didn't you)

Even if you didn't yet, you might. Or, through sheer will power and stubbornness you won't. Just to prove your superiority. But you'll check later, won't you. Or, next time you zip or check you'll think of me. You're welcome.

Now try this.

You take polygraphs? (Or anyone that does.)

Next time you have to take one, don't bother to be honest. Plus, before your polygraphs, don't bother to adhere to your security guidelines or probation rules. The polygraph doesn't work right. No worries. Right? You already branded it with the great big rubber stamp of "psuedo...

Feel good now?

Good.

If you seriously want to have a real conversation about this you gotta let us know sometime. This ain't it. This is just a poly-bashing circus for some disgruntled folks (and cheap entertainment for others). But you did a good job putting me in my place with all those tough questions about science. Yessiree.

For now, go spin that propeller on yer hat for a while. But check your fly before you go out.

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« Last Edit: Oct 1st, 2007 at 1:03pm by Ludovico »  

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Re: What are my rights to see my polygraph results?
Reply #23 - Sep 30th, 2007 at 10:58pm
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Ludovico wrote on Sep 30th, 2007 at 9:35pm:
Well. Golly gee, boss. Someday I gotta get me one-a them there edumacations.

You didn't seriously come here for me to educate me did you? You came here to flex some mathematical muscle or sompin' - or to get me to behave (if all else fails I'll get mod-slapped again - that'll teach me).

Call it a character flaw but I think that everyone is capable of learning, even those steeped in their own delusions...

As for getting mod-slapped, I can't help it if you weren't properly socialized enough to play nice in the sandbox with the other kids...

Ludovico wrote on Sep 30th, 2007 at 9:35pm:
You and I have both read the report.

I seem to recall something else they said about countermeasures not working... and perhaps even increasing the likelihood of not passing...

I think you need to go back and reread it again. You're mixing Honts' recent work with it, which itself has enough holes to drive a truck through...

Ludovico wrote on Sep 30th, 2007 at 9:35pm:
Hey!

You left your fly open, and your dribbling on your pants. Zip it up in public, huh pal.

(you checked. didn't you)

Nope, I'm wearing sweatpants...

Ludovico wrote on Sep 30th, 2007 at 9:35pm:
Even if you didn't yet, you might. Or, through sheer will power and stubbornness you won't. Just to prove your superiority. But you'll check later, won't you. Or, next time you zip or check you'll think of me. You're welcome.

Nope...

Ludovico wrote on Sep 30th, 2007 at 9:35pm:
Now try this.

You take polygraphs? (Or anyone that does.)

I've never taken a polygraph in my life. However, I do research and program evaluations of sex offender treatment. Hence my interest in polygraphs..

Ludovico wrote on Sep 30th, 2007 at 9:35pm:
Next time you have to take one, don't bother to be honest. Plus, before your polygraphs, don't bother to adhere to your security guidelines or probation rules. The polygraph doesn't work right. No worries. Right? You already branded it with the great big rubber stamp of "psuedo...

Find anything in my postings here that encourages dishonesty and criminality...

And yes, it is pseudoscience but I didn't brand it as such. The NAS and others (Lykken, Iacono) did. I also think there is pretty compelling evidence that reliance on it is a threat to the community...

Ludovico wrote on Sep 30th, 2007 at 9:35pm:
Feel good now?

Good.

If you seriously want to have a real conversation about this you gotta let us know sometime. This ain't it. This is just a poly-bashing circus for some disgruntled folks (and cheap entertainment for others). But you did a good job putting me in my place with all those tough questions about science. Yessiree.

For now, go spin that propeller on yer hat for a while. But check your fly before you go out.

What's so sad about this is that I know that most people who work in sex offender treatment, even the polygraphers, are truly earnest in their efforts to prevent relapse and reoffending. I'm sorry that you feel the need to denigrate science and scientific inquiry because it happens to demostrate that your career choice is a sham...  

Rather than continuing your invective and vitriol against me, how about engaging in real dialogue and debate on the scientific evidence for and against the polygraph? Perhaps I could learn something from you and the same might happen for you...

Otherwise, you're the only one providing cheap entertainment...
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Re: What are my rights to see my polygraph results?
Reply #24 - Sep 30th, 2007 at 11:08pm
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Quote:
Nope, I'm wearing sweatpants...


Smart. No worries then.

Quote:
However, I do research and program evaluations of sex offender treatment.


Really. (You seem like nothing more than an apologist for the anti-polygraph crowd.)

You and I have similar interests then.

Quote:
I think you need to go back and reread it again. You're mixing Honts' recent work with it, which itself has enough holes to drive a truck through...


Is this incorrect, O great rubber-stamper of the adequacy of other people's research?

“Because it is possible that countermeasures can increase “failure” rates, among nondeceptive examinees and because a judgement that an examinee is using countermeasures can have the same practical effect as the judgement that the test indicates deception, their use by innocent individuals may be misguided.”

(National Academy of Sciences, 2003) [p.146]


how about this?

“... claims that it is easy to train examinees to “beat” both the polygraph and trained examiners require scientific supporting evidence to be credible.”

(National Academy of Sciences, 2003) [p.147]


Quote:
Rather than continuing your invective and vitriol against me, how about engaging in real dialogue and debate on the scientific evidence for and against the polygraph? Perhaps I could learn something from you and the same might happen for you...

Otherwise, you're the only one providing cheap entertainment...


Sorry, I thought you were the propeller-headed ogre they keep in the cave, to be invited out for special moments when some pesky wise-acre needs to be chewed up and put in his place.

'twas all fun though

niters,

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« Last Edit: Sep 30th, 2007 at 11:33pm by Ludovico »  

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Re: What are my rights to see my polygraph results?
Reply #25 - Oct 1st, 2007 at 3:55am
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Ludovico wrote on Sep 30th, 2007 at 11:08pm:
Is this incorrect, O great rubber-stamper of the adequacy of other people's research?

“Because it is possible that countermeasures can increase “failure” rates, among nondeceptive examinees and because a judgement that an examinee is using countermeasures can have the same practical effect as the judgement that the test indicates deception, their use by innocent individuals may be misguided.”

(National Academy of Sciences, 2003) [p.146]


The NAS made this statement with reference to a study by Honts and Amato of the use of spontaneous (that is, untrained) countermeasures. See, Honts, C.R., S.L. Amato, and A.K. Gordon, "Effects of spontaneous countermeasures used against the comparison question test." Polygraph Vol. 30 (2001), No. 1, pp. 1-9.

In this study, the "countermeasures" were things that subjects ignorant of polygraph procedure did on their own in the belief that it might help them pass the polygraph. Such countermeasures are not comparable to those suggested in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.

There are no studies indicating that the use of sophisticated countermeasures leads to increased polygraph failure rates. On  the contrary, the available research evidence suggests the opposite.

Quote:
how about this?

“... claims that it is easy to train examinees to “beat” both the polygraph and trained examiners require scientific supporting evidence to be credible.”

(National Academy of Sciences, 2003) [p.147]


The existing peer-reviewed research (by Charles Honts and others, see citations and article abstracts in the bibliography of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector) shows that half of programmed guilty subjects passed the polygraph after receiving no more than 30 minutes of training. Those facing polygraphic interrogation in the real world typically have considerably more time and greater motivation to learn countermeasures.
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Re: What are my rights to see my polygraph results?
Reply #26 - Oct 1st, 2007 at 4:13am
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Wonder Woman, Paradiddle, Ludovico,

I'm glad to see that we are all in evident agreement on the point that an agency should not object to having its polygraph examinations independently reviewed. I think that when an agency refuses to release such information, as has happened in mattwings' case, an unbiased observer is justified in drawing adverse inference.

With regard to your concerns about the ethics of publishing information on polygraph countermeasures, to be sure, I am not so naive as to think that some guilty/deceptive persons won't use the information provided by AntiPolygraph.org in an effort to avoid being held accountable for their actions. For more on this topic, see my "Response to Paul M. Menges Regarding the Ethical Considerations of Providing Polygraph Countermeasures to the Public."
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Re: What are my rights to see my polygraph results?
Reply #27 - Oct 1st, 2007 at 7:52am
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Fact is that people get busted daily for fartin' around with their polygraphs as advised on this site. Some are in fact guilty. Others pay the price for your cause. Nice work huh?

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Re: What are my rights to see my polygraph results?
Reply #28 - Oct 1st, 2007 at 9:55am
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Ludovico wrote on Oct 1st, 2007 at 7:52am:
Fact is that people get busted daily for fartin' around with their polygraphs as advised on this site. Some are in fact guilty. Others pay the price for your cause. Nice work huh?



Fact is that some are not guilty but still pay your price so that you can add
another notch on your gun. Nice huh ?
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Re: What are my rights to see my polygraph results?
Reply #29 - Oct 1st, 2007 at 10:58am
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Jeez-o-man,

You flip-flop more than a fish out of water. Are you arguing science or ethics. You switch back and forth rather conveniently.

Both are interesting conversations, but they are somewhat separate concerns.

Your expression  is a typical one-sided deontological conclusion, about the "evil" of polygraph because of its imperfection. Our judicial system is imperfect too, and sometimes not very scientific. Should we discard it as well, Boss?

The other side of the ethical discussion is a recognition of the fact that much about community building and much about our legal system is premised on more utilititarian ethical models. Neither is completely correct or incorrect. The real challenge is to develop an articulate awareness of each of these ethical paradigms, along with that of other folks like Aristotle, and begin to formulate an integrative understanding of what is right and what is wrong in terms of community safety decisions and individual liberties. Do you really want to discuss this, or do you simply need to be right?

One thing is for sure - Emanuel Kant should never become a polygraph examiner.

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