Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5  ReplyAdd Poll Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?.. (Read 23853 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box policeHopeful
User
**
Offline



Posts: 31
Joined: Sep 20th, 2007
Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #45 - Sep 29th, 2007 at 8:05pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
And after much deliberation I have decided to take the honest way out. I will not use countermeasures to manipulate a reaction on the polygraph. I will tell the truth, or at least 99% truth.
And for any polygrapher or polygraph expert I would love to ask a couple of questions via messages. Please only people who are willing to not judge me and people who will answer my question honestly. Thanks so much.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Ludovico
Senior User
***
Offline


I was cured all right.

Posts: 99
Joined: Sep 29th, 2007
Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #46 - Sep 29th, 2007 at 8:13pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Quote:
first off all I know exactly how polygraphs work and I fully understand everything on the book.


Well then. You should have absolutely no trouble beating, er, uh, passing the test.

By the way where did you gain your expertise in polygraph? From "the book?"

Quote:
And secondly I am NOT a FUCKING sex offender.


Easy killer (WW touched a nerve or somp'in). There just might be some sex offenders reading this site, and you wouldn't want to hurt anyone's feelings now would you. Sex offenders are people too. They simply have some "issues," or something. Maybe they just don't talk about there true feelings enough. So, you go right ahead and vent. We're all listening. Right everyone? (right??)

George is providing an equal opportunity service here, because sex offenders deserve to beat/pass polygraphs too.

And if you do get hired, don't go pissing in the pool and making a bad impression for public servants -  like ya'll have some kind of calloused attitude towards the troubled folks.
  

Welly, welly, welly, welly, welly, welly, well. To what do I owe the extreme pleasure of this surprising visit?
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box policeHopeful
User
**
Offline



Posts: 31
Joined: Sep 20th, 2007
Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #47 - Sep 29th, 2007 at 8:19pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
I actually agree with a lot of the people on here that polygraph test do serve a purpose in weeding out those who are unfit to become police officers. That is a big reason why I have decided to scrap using countermeasures and to just tell the truth.


"By the way where did you gain your expertise in polygraph? From "the book?"" actually "the book" helped but I learned most of it from Doug Williams' manual.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Ludovico
Senior User
***
Offline


I was cured all right.

Posts: 99
Joined: Sep 29th, 2007
Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #48 - Sep 29th, 2007 at 9:42pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Oh, Dougie's book.

That'll make you an expert for sure.

  

Welly, welly, welly, welly, welly, welly, well. To what do I owe the extreme pleasure of this surprising visit?
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box day2day
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 24
Joined: Mar 3rd, 2006
Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #49 - Sep 29th, 2007 at 10:02pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
policeHopeful wrote on Sep 29th, 2007 at 8:05pm:
And after much deliberation I have decided to take the honest way out. I will not use countermeasures to manipulate a reaction on the polygraph. I will tell the truth, or at least 99% truth.
And for any polygrapher or polygraph expert I would love to ask a couple of questions via messages. Please only people who are willing to not judge me and people who will answer my question honestly. Thanks so much.



Keep in mind that during a PLCQT there are 3 relevant questions.  Agencies are more concered with other areas of criminal activity.  As such I doubt such a question would appear during the intest phase of the examination.  However, it's pretty likely it will appear in the pretest interview.

Don't let Ludovico get to you.  He's obviously arrogant and despite what his in person claims might be, not trying to help you in anyway.  He's the type of person that causes false-positives.  That is discernable for his complete lack of ability to converse cordially and constructively.  To be blunt:  he's a dick.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Sergeant1107
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 730
Location: Connecticut, USA
Joined: May 21st, 2005
Gender: Male
Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #50 - Sep 29th, 2007 at 10:28pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Ludovico wrote on Sep 29th, 2007 at 8:13pm:
George is providing an equal opportunity service here, because sex offenders deserve to beat/pass polygraphs too.

If sex offenders, or anyone else for that matter, are able to beat/pass a polygraph simply because they have access to the Internet, how valid a test can the polygraph possibly be?

Information on polygraph procedures and countermeasures predates the existance of this site.  If you believe that the information on this site enables sex offendes to beat/pass polygraph exams, it logically follows that sex offenders have always been able to beat/pass polygraph exams.  Before this site existed they simply obtained their information somewhere else.

It would seem that, if you believe countermeasure information enables people to beat/pass the polygraph, then polygraph examiners cannot possibly have any accurate figures for how many people have used countermeasures on them in the past in order to beat/pass their polygraph.  By definition, successful countermeasure use would remain undetected.

The only difference this site has made in this regard is now polygraph examiners worry that more people will be able to successfully use countermeasures.  Since they have no idea of how many people were able to do it before, the thought of more people doing it now has them understandably upset.

  

Lorsque vous utilisez un argumentum ad hominem, tout le monde sait que vous Ítes intellectuellement faillite.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Ludovico
Senior User
***
Offline


I was cured all right.

Posts: 99
Joined: Sep 29th, 2007
Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #51 - Sep 29th, 2007 at 11:29pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Quote:
Don't let Ludovico get to you.  He's obviously arrogant and despite what his in person claims might be, not trying to help you in anyway.  He's the type of person that causes false-positives.  That is discernable for his complete lack of ability to converse cordially and constructively.  To be blunt:  he's a dick.


Abuse. And you don't even know me.

Lets be clear. Nobody visits this website for any positive purpose.

Even George, just wants to help people defeat the polygraph, embarrass the folks he's ticked off at, and get away with no good. Even if you fail, due to the increased likelihood of FP's from all the blasted wriggling around and singin' numbers in yer head.

Don't think, anyone, that George care about your experience. He's read the NRC report, and what the committee said about the efficacy of countermeasures.

You're just Georgie-fodder - you beat the poly and the bad guys win. You FP-up your poly, and he wins too 'cause yer then ticked like him.

Later,

and do try not to worry about your polygraphs...



  

Welly, welly, welly, welly, welly, welly, well. To what do I owe the extreme pleasure of this surprising visit?
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Sergeant1107
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 730
Location: Connecticut, USA
Joined: May 21st, 2005
Gender: Male
Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #52 - Sep 29th, 2007 at 11:53pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Ludovico wrote on Sep 29th, 2007 at 11:29pm:
Lets be clear. Nobody visits this website for any positive purpose.

I guess you guys really do believe you can detect thoughts...

What is my negative purpose for coming to this web site? †I am not aware of any, so if you would be so kind as to let me know, I'd appreciate it.

I passed my pre-employment polygraph more than ten years ago and haven't taken one since.  I doubt very much I would ever have to take another polygraph for the rest of my life.

I have absolutely nothing to gain if the use of the polygraph is curtailed.  And I have nothing to lose, either.

I am here because I believe the polygraph is inaccurate in pre-employment screening and is damaging because of that.  It stands to reason that if it is inaccurate in that arena it is inaccurate in others as well...
  

Lorsque vous utilisez un argumentum ad hominem, tout le monde sait que vous Ítes intellectuellement faillite.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Paradiddle
Very Senior User
****
Offline



Posts: 158
Joined: Sep 24th, 2007
Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #53 - Sep 29th, 2007 at 11:54pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
I said it earlier. Honesty makes you calm---not a cheesy performance of INTERNET COUNTERMEASURES. I won't even buy a CD on the internet without feeling like I am going to get screwed, much less take career advice from people who flunk polygraphs but get bright ideas after the fact.
Tell the truth, even about the damn dog---it will have a calming effect that no "knowlege or trickery" will ever remedy.

Pass the fucking test, come back here, tell George and all that your Examiner was a decent human being and that you felt initially nervous, but eventually liberated. Tell the examiner that the dog thing was such a point of humiliation that you flirted with the idea of using countermeasures, but decided not to. Been there, done that. I am always impressed with examinees who tell me up front of knowlege and temptation. It is strikingly candid, and if told by a compelling individual, is quite endearing. I S U not.
  

Cheats and the Cheating Cheaters who try to Cheat us.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Sergeant1107
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 730
Location: Connecticut, USA
Joined: May 21st, 2005
Gender: Male
Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #54 - Sep 30th, 2007 at 12:02am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Paradiddle wrote on Sep 29th, 2007 at 11:54pm:
I said it earlier. Honesty makes you calm---not a cheesy performance of INTERNET COUNTERMEASURES.

I was calm and answered all the questions honestly in all four of my polygraphs.  Yet I failed the first three.

Maybe I would have passed one of my first three if I'd used countermeasures.  I could not have done any worse than I wound up doing...

I have yet to hear a compelling argument against using countermeasures.  I still believe it is important to tell the truth, but if an applicant answers all questions honestly and uses countermeasures to protect against a false positive, is he or she doing anything unethical?  I don't think so.

Simply telling the truth is, at best, a shot in the dark with regard to passing your polygraph.  If I answer all the questions honestly and then do long division in my head, or bite my tongue, or do whatever after each answer, are my odds of passing going to go up, go down, or stay the same?
  

Lorsque vous utilisez un argumentum ad hominem, tout le monde sait que vous Ítes intellectuellement faillite.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Ludovico
Senior User
***
Offline


I was cured all right.

Posts: 99
Joined: Sep 29th, 2007
Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #55 - Sep 30th, 2007 at 12:41am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Quote:
What is my negative purpose for coming to this web site?  I am not aware of any, so if you would be so kind as to let me know, I'd appreciate it.


Do you really think you are supporting good police work and community safety, by ancouraging a bunch of sex offenders to try and defeat their monitoring exams, or by helping a bunch of undesirables to try to get hired? Do you really think its working?

Is this the best form of community activism that you can think of?

  

Welly, welly, welly, welly, welly, welly, well. To what do I owe the extreme pleasure of this surprising visit?
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Sergeant1107
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 730
Location: Connecticut, USA
Joined: May 21st, 2005
Gender: Male
Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #56 - Sep 30th, 2007 at 9:31am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Ludovico wrote on Sep 30th, 2007 at 12:41am:
Quote:
What is my negative purpose for coming to this web site? †I am not aware of any, so if you would be so kind as to let me know, I'd appreciate it.


Do you really think you are supporting good police work and community safety, by ancouraging a bunch of sex offenders to try and defeat their monitoring exams, or by helping a bunch of undesirables to try to get hired? Do you really think its working?

Is this the best form of community activism that you can think of?


I'll ask this again, since no one seems to have a valid answer for it...

If you are using a test to monitor the behavior of sex offenders and to prevent "undesirables" from getting hired, and that test can be beaten, defeated, or confounded by someone with access to the Internet, how valid can that test possibly be?

I had three different polygraph examiners tell me they knew I was lying when I knew I was telling the truth.  How can any reasonable person go through that experience and not be open to the possibility that sex offenders can rape a child on Monday and pass their polygraph exam on Tuesday?  Or that a police applicant with a history of carjacking, sexual assault, and ecstasy use can lie about all of that on their pre-employment polygraph and pass anyway?

In my personal experience the polygraph is not accurate.  I don't think it should be used for anything of importance.  As an interrogation intimidator it is certainly useful, but only if the subject believes it is capable of detecting deception. 

If you are an examiner and you believe the test can be beaten by someone after surfing the web for a weekend, how exactly are you supporting community safety?  Shouldn't you stop conducting pointless tests and bring it to someone's attention that the polygraph is not a valid form of monitoring sex offenders and screening applicants because it can be defeated by anyone with a computer and a modem?
  

Lorsque vous utilisez un argumentum ad hominem, tout le monde sait que vous Ítes intellectuellement faillite.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box pailryder
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 439
Joined: Jun 5th, 2006
Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #57 - Sep 30th, 2007 at 2:40pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Sarge, I think your experience with polygraph reflects the opinion many in LEAs have formed after exposure to a preemployment screening poly.  I agree with you that no employment related decesion, whether in the public or private workplace should ever rest soley on the opinion of a polyex.  That is why EPPA, a law designed to end private poly testing actually worked to improve the private end of our profession.  But lets not throw the baby out with the bath water.

If you take recruits to the range, and provide a good lecture on safety, sight alignment, and trigger control, can most of those trainees be expected to hit a single target?  Could most hit seven seperate targets in the same string?  Or would that be seven times harder?  And would they always know which shots were misses and which were hits?

The single issue specific exam is essentially different from the multiple issue screening exam.   The undeniable fact that many LEAs use poly screening simply as an interrogration prop, is regretable but, does not, in and of itself, invalidate other uses of the techniques.

Thank you for your service to community.
  

No good social purpose can be served by inventing ways of beating the lie detector or deceiving polygraphers.   David Thoreson Lykken
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Ludovico
Senior User
***
Offline


I was cured all right.

Posts: 99
Joined: Sep 29th, 2007
Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #58 - Sep 30th, 2007 at 2:55pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Quote:
If you are using a test to monitor the behavior of sex offenders and to prevent "undesirables" from getting hired, and that test can be beaten, defeated, or confounded by someone with access to the Internet, how valid can that test possibly be?


You wear a bullet-proof vest Serge? Why bother; they are easily defeated, by more powerful weapons, and by not aiming for the vest.

If you are really going to have an intellectual conversation, it would help to have a less black-and-white understanding of the concept of validity. It would also help to refrain from drawing global conclusions from personal or annecdotal experience. That just ain't science, boss.

By your logic, one could argue that the use of bullet proof vests is invalid, as a measure of police safety and protection - else why would cops still get killed by gunfire in the line of duty. (I apologize for this example. I do not mean to trivialize people who are harmed while doing good work - I simply couldn't find a more powerful metaphor at the moment.)

  

Welly, welly, welly, welly, welly, welly, well. To what do I owe the extreme pleasure of this surprising visit?
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box pailryder
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 439
Joined: Jun 5th, 2006
Re: Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..
Reply #59 - Oct 4th, 2007 at 11:42am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Sarge 1107

My concern is for good people seeking information who come to this site and buy into the belief that they can read tlbtld and help themselves pass their test.  I am not afraid of attempts to mask responses plainly evident on a chart.   After all, a well told lie is still the best cm I know.  If you read The Insiders Guide to Texas Hold'em, would you feel you were ready to set in on a game with Chris Ferguerson or Doyle Brunson?  Anyone reading my posts will recognize that I am a pro knowledge, but beware:

A little learning is a dangerous thing,
Drink deep or taste not the Pierian spring.
There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain.
And drinking largely sobers us again.     Alexander Pope (1711)    
  

No good social purpose can be served by inventing ways of beating the lie detector or deceiving polygraphers.   David Thoreson Lykken
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 
ReplyAdd Poll Send TopicPrint
Police pre-employment polys mostly IRrelevant & Relevant?..

Please type the characters that appear in the image. The characters must be typed in the same order, and they are case-sensitive.
Open Preview Preview

You can resize the textbox by dragging the right or bottom border.
Insert Hyperlink Insert FTP Link Insert Image Insert E-mail Insert Media Insert Table Insert Table Row Insert Table Column Insert Horizontal Rule Insert Teletype Insert Code Insert Quote Edited Superscript Subscript Insert List /me - my name Insert Marquee Insert Timestamp No Parse
Bold Italicized Underline Insert Strikethrough Highlight
                       
Insert Preformatted Text Left Align Centered Right Align
resize_wb
resize_hb







Max 200000 characters. Remaining characters:
Text size: pt
More Smilies
View All Smilies
Collapse additional features Collapse/Expand additional features Smiley Wink Cheesy Grin Angry Sad Shocked Cool Huh Roll Eyes Tongue Embarrassed Lips Sealed Undecided Kiss Cry
Attachments More Attachments Allowed file types: txt doc docx ics psd pdf bmp jpe jpg jpeg gif png swf zip rar tar gz 7z odt ods mp3 mp4 wav avi mov 3gp html maff pgp gpg
Maximum Attachment size: 500000 KB
Attachment 1:
X