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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Calling out LieBabyCryBaby (Read 35188 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Paradiddle
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Re: Calling out LieBabyCryBaby
Reply #30 - Sep 28th, 2007 at 2:54pm
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Lethe wrote on Sep 27th, 2007 at 3:22pm:
The reason that a security person wouldn't give out certain information is because doing so would help potential thieves.  Are you saying that giving out certain information about the polygraph would lessen its accuracy?  You're trying to have it both ways, Paradiddle.  On the one hand, you want us to think that there is no knowledge that a subject could possess which would lessen the accuracy of the exam.  But on the other hand you refuse to tell us how your awesome test works because doing so could lessen its accuracy.  Well, which is it?

As for "trade secrets", that applies to intellectual property.  The reason KFC doesn't give out the Colonel's recipe is so that you have to go to them to get the chicken.  Are you saying that if you told me how the process worked that that little bit of knowledge would allow me to become a polygrapher and start competing with you?  Surely not.  The claim is disingenuous.  

I think one of the problems that we're having here is that you're programmed to view any questioning of the polygraph to be an attempt to destroy it.  So you're assuming that that's where I'm going with this.  Why don't you set those assumptions aside and just answer my questions directly and honestly and then if I start saying that the costs of the polygraph outweigh the benefits we can have a proper, informed discussion of the matter?






3. Countermeasures, like the tests that they invite (any test has countermeasures) change, necessitating countercountermeasures----and then new 2.0 countermeasures. This process is unending. It is interesting that so many antipolygraph people are not in the profession of human testing--of any kind---be it student aptitude testing,  drug testing, or polygraph testing. There is an entire field of epistemology dedicated to human testing theories---which extends into many fields both social/phsych and the hard sciences. Plainly said, the "testing science/art" is a worrisome activity, and that will never change, as humans are not silicone based lifeforms (no shit, right.)


Now, please all, stop the platitudes and the rhetoric that you all understand precisely what threats  that certain cm's and education actually pose---in theory. Here is the absolute codified phylosophy on countermeasures. Note that it is behavioral countermeasures that post the greatest risk. Remember, to refuse a test altogether is the ultimate  and most commonly effective behavioral countermeasure.

COUNTERMEASURES MIGHT IN IDEAL CIRCUMSTANCES BE SUCCESSFUL, ALTHOUGH THIS NOTION IS NOT BACKED UP WITH RESEARCH----AND THE FIELD OF EXPERTS AREN'T IN FULL AGREEMENT AS TO CM EFFICACY, AND SO POLYGRAPH EXAMINERS SHOULD EXCERCISE CAUTION, NOT TERROR---AND STAY ABREAST OF LATEST TESTING METHODS AND COUNTERMEASURE RESEARCH. HOWEVER, WITH SEX OFFENDERS IN TREATMENT, WHERE THE INFORMATION AND DISCLOSURE PROCESS IS VITAL TO THE SAFETY OF THE COMMUNITY AND THE PROCESS OF COGNITIVE THERAPIES FOR THE OFFENDER HIM OR HERSELF IS CONCERNED, BEHAVIORAL COUNTERMEASURES PRESENT WITH A CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER TO THE COMMUNITY. LIKEWISE, BEHAVIORAL COUNTERMEASURES ENGAGED IN BY APPLICANTS ATTEMPTING EMPLOYMENT WITH SENSETIVE CLEARANCES PRESENT WITH A CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER TO NATIONAL SECURITY, AS MANY APPLICANTS ARE UNABLE OR UNWILLING TO IDENTIFY/DISCLOSE THEIR OWN EMPIRICALLY PROVEN RISK MANAGEMENT CONCERNS.
  

Cheats and the Cheating Cheaters who try to Cheat us.
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Lethe
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Re: Calling out LieBabyCryBaby
Reply #31 - Sep 29th, 2007 at 2:57am
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Paradiddle, you're trying to shift the topic to countermeasures.  Are you guys specifically trained to do that?  Or do you just do so because you are only trained to deal with questions based on countermeasures? 

Anyway, I think you're still trying to have it both ways.  But I'm going to skip over much of what you've said because I think I can cut the gordian knot with a single challenge to you.  Now, let us recall the original question that this thread was designed to seek the answer to:

    Is an examinee who knows how a probable lie control question test works, all else being equal, less likely to produce accurate results when tested than an identical examinee who is ignorant of how the test works?

You keep answering "no, no, no" but then go on to say stuff which seems to contradict that denial.  But I will give you an excellent chance to demonstrate the truth of what you claim.  Responding to this opportunity won't even take much of your time, it will be quite simple.  All you need to do is this: give us a list of five of your best control questions.  If, as you claim, knowing what those questions are doesn't decrease accuracy, I see no reason for you to decline this request.  If there is some other reason why you can't share them (they're under copyright, perhaps?) then you are invited to share that reason with us.

As you said previously:

Paradiddle wrote on Sep 24th, 2007 at 6:43pm:
[It is incorrect that] an individual must lie (or be lying)on control questions in order for the CQT to be successful. Enough with this fable already. A subject need only have a greater orienting response to controls via nebulous doubts, uncertainty or any other striking response.


It seems to me that if you know you're supposed to lie and that you will indeed be maneuvered until you finally relent and tell a lie, that it would be difficult to form an intent to deceive or to be sufficiently anxious about your answer.  Thus it seems important that the subject not know which questions are controls and which questions are relevant in order that his or her physiological reactions be as natural as possible.  Also, the length to which polygraphers go in order to trick their subjects about the control questions seems to belie the claim that knowing what they are wouldn't effect the test.

So, Paradiddle, what are some of the cool control questions that you use? 

Or will you abandon this farce and simply admit that a subject who knows the control questions is less likely to produce an accurate chart, even without any countermeasures attempts?
  

Is former APA President Skip Webb evil or just stupid?

Is former APA President Ed Gelb an idiot or does the polygraph just not work?

Did you know that polygrapher Sackett doesn't care about detecting deception to relevant questions?
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Re: Calling out LieBabyCryBaby
Reply #32 - Sep 29th, 2007 at 12:43pm
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Lethe

While reading your posts regarding comparison questions, I could not help but recall my experience in trade school when the instructor first explained to our class what our moderator calls the lie behind the lie detector test.  I was taught that the purpose of manipulating a subject into lying to a comparison guestion was to pull the truthful subject's attention away from the relevant issue by providing another point of focus.    

There are many lists and even entire books with commonly used generic comparison questions and I am sure that you will find them on this site.  My point is, no one can give you the five best CQ's, because the best comparison questions are not canned, they must be developed during discussion with the subject in pretest because they must be meaningful to that individual subject.  A subject can understand the purpose of CQ's, as would I if I were tested, but such understanding alone does not preclude the developement of meaningful CQ material.
  

No good social purpose can be served by inventing ways of beating the lie detector or deceiving polygraphers.   David Thoreson Lykken
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Ludovico
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Re: Calling out LieBabyCryBaby
Reply #33 - Sep 29th, 2007 at 2:11pm
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Quote:
Is an examinee who knows how a probable lie control question test works, all else being equal, less likely to produce accurate results when tested than an identical examinee who is ignorant of how the test works?


An equally good question would be,


Is an examinee who has attempted to educate himself about polygraph, all else being equal, more likely to produce non-deceptive results than other examinees?


It seems there is some research and inquiry into that, though people here don't like the results. I believe it was the NRC that admonished that claims that it is easy to train people to defeat the polygraph require supporting research. At present there is none.

Have fun passing your polygraphs boyz and girlz.



  

Welly, welly, welly, welly, welly, welly, well. To what do I owe the extreme pleasure of this surprising visit?
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Re: Calling out LieBabyCryBaby
Reply #34 - Sep 29th, 2007 at 3:06pm
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Ludovico wrote on Sep 29th, 2007 at 2:11pm:
[quote]I believe it was the NRC that admonished that claims that it is easy to train people to defeat the polygraph require supporting research. At present there is none.


See?  It's always about countermeasures to a polygrapher.  The original question had nothing to do with countermeasures but these polygraph folk can't seem to stay away from the topic.  I imagine that if I inquired of a polygrapher what the weather was likely to be on the morrow I would more probably receive a denunciation of countermeasures than I would his opinion on the possibilities of sunshine or rain.

Anyway pailryder (I keep picturing someone sitting atop an overturned bucket when writing that), I did not intend to imply that there was a hierarchy of control questions with some of them being demonstrably the best.  I'm just looking for a number of control questions that tend to be used frequently; I know that which ones are employed depends on the specifics of the case and individual in question.

So, how about it? Can you give us 5 of the control questions that you find yourself most frequently using and explain to us what makes them good control questions?
  

Is former APA President Skip Webb evil or just stupid?

Is former APA President Ed Gelb an idiot or does the polygraph just not work?

Did you know that polygrapher Sackett doesn't care about detecting deception to relevant questions?
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Re: Calling out LieBabyCryBaby
Reply #35 - Sep 29th, 2007 at 3:37pm
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Lethe: Quote:
So, how about it? Can you give us 5 of the control questions that you find yourself most frequently using and explain to us what makes them good control questions?


Did you steal the tests in school too?

Its no big deal, you were supposed to learn those spelling words anyway. You were just not wasting excess time studying words that weren't on the test. Right?

Its not cheating. Is it? Its just studying for the test. Right?

Are spelling test results as informative to teachers when they teach the test?

Get real, and get honest.

  

Welly, welly, welly, welly, welly, welly, well. To what do I owe the extreme pleasure of this surprising visit?
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Re: Calling out LieBabyCryBaby
Reply #36 - Sep 29th, 2007 at 4:29pm
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If having knowledge of how the test works has no effect on it working, why should knowing the 5 favorite controls have any effect on it?  You're talking out of the side of your mouth.

Studying the words for the spelling test provides the answers to the test without disinformation, opinion of the tester and interpretation.  Your analogy fails.
  
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Re: Calling out LieBabyCryBaby
Reply #37 - Sep 29th, 2007 at 5:25pm
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While we're at it, would you like us to post the questions and answers to the SAT? That couldn't hurt. Could it? It would only improve people's test scores. Right Chief?
  

Welly, welly, welly, welly, welly, welly, well. To what do I owe the extreme pleasure of this surprising visit?
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Re: Calling out LieBabyCryBaby
Reply #38 - Sep 29th, 2007 at 9:28pm
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Well Lethe it helps to know what different professions tend to lie about, or at least, what makes them uncomfortable.  As a general rule we tend to develope theft comparisons for theft cases, sex comparisons for sex cases, apple comparisons for apple cases.  Relevant Q "Did you do the bad thing you are accused of?"  Comparison Q "Did you ever do any other bad thing like that?  Relevant Q "Did you cheat on this wife?" Comparison Q "Did you ever cheat on your first two wives?"  Relevant Q "Did you touch that child in a sexual manner?"  Comparison Q "When you worked at Little Angels Day Care, did you ever become sexually arouse by any of those children?"

My test yesterday for an attorney whose 18 yr old client was identified by the store clerk who was robbed at gunpoint.  RQ  Are you the person that robbed the Dollar General?  RQ  On date in question did you take a gun into the DG and rob it?    CQ  When you were in high school did you ever break into a locked room or automobile to steal something?  Irrelevant but interesting detail, he had a tat on his neck that read  NOT GUILTY.

Two cousins dealing drugs together. One finds the other's dead body(shot) and is the prime suspect. RQ  Did you shoot your cousin?  answer no  CQ Did you and cousin ever deal drugs? answer no and produced a larger response than RQ.  Easy NDI later confirmed by real killers confession. 


  

No good social purpose can be served by inventing ways of beating the lie detector or deceiving polygraphers.   David Thoreson Lykken
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Re: Calling out LieBabyCryBaby
Reply #39 - Sep 29th, 2007 at 9:33pm
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Ludovico wrote on Sep 29th, 2007 at 5:25pm:
While we're at it, would you like us to post the questions and answers to the SAT? That couldn't hurt. Could it? It would only improve people's test scores. Right Chief?


You really are comparing apples to oranges here, and I think you know it.  You're being purposely obtuse and that leads the reader to see your mass arrogance.  You are trying to use tests in which the test taker has to study and the answers are found.  Yet, for polygraph the testee is not supposed to do any type of studying.  Why the hell is that?  Is it because knowledge of the test lessens the ability of the examiner to attempt discerning fact from fiction?  Bullshit is bullshit no matter how much rubbing compound is used.
  
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Re: Calling out LieBabyCryBaby
Reply #40 - Sep 30th, 2007 at 1:39am
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Wow!  I really am flattered to have such an oft-read thread dedicated to me!  I just noticed it, and I was shocked at how many times it has been viewed by so many people other than myself.  I read a lot today, and I am enjoying the discussion, although I don't currently have the time or the desire to play post-minton with everyone on the anti-side right now.  Fortunately, it appears I don't have to.  Please, continue the game, and I'll just sit here on the sideline for awhile and watch the ball go back and forth from paddle to paddle.   Cheesy
  
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Re: Calling out LieBabyCryBaby
Reply #41 - Sep 30th, 2007 at 2:56am
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pailryder wrote on Sep 29th, 2007 at 9:28pm:
Two cousins dealing drugs together. One finds the other's dead body(shot) and is the prime suspect. RQ  Did you shoot your cousin?  answer no  CQ Did you and cousin ever deal drugs? answer no and produced a larger response than RQ.  Easy NDI later confirmed by real killers confession. 


    You: Bill, did you shoot your cousin?

    Bill: No.

    You: Did you and your cousin ever deal drugs?

    Bill: Yeah, we did.

    You: Uh... you're supposed to say no.

    Bill: But we did.  We was selling drugs all the time.

    You: But... if you sold drugs with your cousin, that means you must have murdered him!

    Bill: That is not a logical conclusion.  Can I get a new polygrapher?

What do you do then?  Let me guess, you can't tell me because that would be tantamount to taking the head of the College Board hostage and forcing him (or her) to give you a perfect score on your SATs. 

Oh, and LieBabyCryBabe, I'm glad you found the thread, I hope it's amused you.  (Didn't you get the PM from me with the URL for it?)  Feel free to jump in anytime.
  

Is former APA President Skip Webb evil or just stupid?

Is former APA President Ed Gelb an idiot or does the polygraph just not work?

Did you know that polygrapher Sackett doesn't care about detecting deception to relevant questions?
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Re: Calling out LieBabyCryBaby
Reply #42 - Sep 30th, 2007 at 3:11am
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Lethe,

I have tried over and over again to try to follow where you are coming from with your latest post. I am going to take some Prosac and have another beer. I'll log back on in half an hour and see if your post makes any sense after that.

Thank you for being here and giving me something to do on a Saturday night.

Regards,
  
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Re: Calling out LieBabyCryBaby
Reply #43 - Sep 30th, 2007 at 3:13am
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Mysterymeat wrote on Sep 30th, 2007 at 3:11am:
Lethe,

I have tried over and over again to try to follow where you are coming from with your latest post. I am going to take some Prosac and have another beer. I'll log back on in half an hour and see if your post makes any sense after that.

Thank you for being here and giving me something to do on a Saturday night.

Regards,


Is Prosac and alcohol a wise combination?

The gist of the post is simple: what do you do when the stupid examinee actually tells the truth when presented with the control question.  Can you get good results without getting him to lie?  If not, then how do you get him to lie?

Anyway, glad to entertain you, but I've gotta turn in.  10pm is my bedtime.  Sleep well everyone.
  

Is former APA President Skip Webb evil or just stupid?

Is former APA President Ed Gelb an idiot or does the polygraph just not work?

Did you know that polygrapher Sackett doesn't care about detecting deception to relevant questions?
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Re: Calling out LieBabyCryBaby
Reply #44 - Sep 30th, 2007 at 4:13am
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Lethe,

You are correct. Alcohol and Prosac are not the best combination- but they work for me.  I am new to this site and enjoy the debate. What are your thoughts about Dr. Drew Richardson? It is kind of funny that George slaps polygraphers around for having a training program that is shorter than Beauty School. George then puts Dr. Drew Richardson on his web site as an "expert" when Dr. Richardson barely graduated from from a federal polygraph training program with a 70% GPA?? Was Dr. Richardson's training program longer than beauty school? Should I let Dr. Drew perm my hair, tweeze my brow or wax my lip?

George condems people who "mis-use" the FBI symbol and then he posts his own picture in front of the American flag. Talk about mis-use of a symbol?? And why is George always looking down on you in his picture? Why is George always changing his picture? Why is George's picture the only one that is ever posted? What ever happened to that Gino Scalopini guy?

I like an healthy open debate and that is why I like this site.

Take care and have a good night.

Regards,

MM
  
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