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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) What type of test am I being given? (Read 34484 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: What type of test am I being given?
Reply #15 - Jul 27th, 2007 at 2:09pm
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palerider wrote on Jul 27th, 2007 at 1:38pm:
Again, please research the the subject matter and target issues before attempting to ask your question. You are clearly illprepared to discuss both the nuances and the larger issues involved with sex offender monitoring. I'm afraid that your lazy and G.W. Bush-esque attempt at learning a topic through a pathetic browse of 1 book preface is lacking in acedemic sincerity and shows all your degree of cowardice.  Undecided


p.s. Perhaps it's time to box up your old collection of goofy foreign intel books and spy stories and begin researching a topic that is both relevant to your mission, and relevant to our children. It is high time that you cease being clumsy with your advice.


Palerider,

I didn't browse the preface of Salter's Predators: Pedophiles, Rapists, and Other Sex Offenders : Who They Are, How They Operate, and How We Can Protect Ourselves and Our Children. Rather, I looked at in-context citations of each instance of the word "polygraph" in the book, and saw quite clearly that there is nothing in the book that is germane to the specifics of any polygraph technique.

I think you lied when you said you wrote:

Quote:
I have enough information now. I know that all of his polygraph questions are relevant....


I think the reason you have failed to cite any reference documenting such a technique (wherein all questions are relevant) is that, in fact, you know of none. But you lack the honesty and integrity to admit it. Shame on you.
  

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Re: What type of test am I being given?
Reply #16 - Jul 27th, 2007 at 2:19pm
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So, lying to your probation/parole officer isn't relevant? Polygraph aside George, is manipulating your supervising officer not relevant? I have not lied. Since you profess to know soooooo much about my profession, than perhaps you could tell me what is not relevant? Deviant sexual fantasies? Using Alcohol? Secret Contact with minors? Take your pick. If an Offender bites his tongue on any questions other than a sacrifice relevant and irrelevant, he is in deep shit.
  
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Re: What type of test am I being given?
Reply #17 - Jul 27th, 2007 at 2:21pm
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George,

It is not my intention to get you grumpy on a weekend, but the argument iro pigeonholing questions is a bit irrelevant (no pun intended) some questions can be used as either CQ or RQ depending on the type
of test being used. Remember too that the APA sanctions the use of ANY technique when used for
research purposes and what better subject matter to use for research than a real live dirt bag who did
the crime. (in this instance he admits to past 'wrongdoings' -- like maybe taking Sally's head off with a chainsaw)

How would you George, classify the following questions:
1   Did you cause Mary's death with a knife
2   Did you cause marys death with a noose
3   Did you cause marys death with a firearm
4   did you cause marys death with a blunt weapon
5   did you cause marys death with poison

  
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Re: What type of test am I being given?
Reply #18 - Jul 27th, 2007 at 2:26pm
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Kalex wrote on Jul 27th, 2007 at 2:21pm:
George,

It is not my intention to get you grumpy on a weekend, but the argument iro pigeonholing questions is a bit irrelevant (no pun intended) some questions can be used as either CQ or RQ depending on the type
of test being used. Remember too that the APA sanctions the use of ANY technique when used for
research purposes and what better subject matter to use for research than a real live dirt bag who did
the crime. (in this instance he admits to past 'wrongdoings' -- like maybe taking Sally's head off with a chainsaw)

How would you George, classify the following questions:
1   Did you cause Mary's death with a knife
2   Did you cause marys death with a noose
3   Did you cause marys death with a firearm
4   did you cause marys death with a blunt weapon
5   did you cause marys death with poison



Sorry, i hit post and deleted some text.
Contnd...

The above questions are all relevant, and are used in the GKT protocol.
If the investigator did not know the key, they are all RQ's - if he did know,
then only one (the key) is RQ

In a searching POT protocol, all the questions will always be RQ's because
the investigator does not know the key and only the perp does. ie

Do you think marys body is in a river
................................... is in a lake
...................................... is buried

.................................... is in Texas
................................. is in Kansas
.................................is in mexico

You're welcome.
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: What type of test am I being given?
Reply #19 - Jul 27th, 2007 at 2:39pm
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palerider wrote on Jul 27th, 2007 at 2:19pm:
So, lying to your probation/parole officer isn't relevant? Polygraph aside George, is manipulating your supervising officer not relevant? I have not lied.


Yes you did. You must surely know that there is no generally accepted (within the polygraph community, that is) technique that consists entirely of relevant questions.

Quote:
Since you profess to know soooooo much about my profession, than perhaps you could tell me what is not relevant? Deviant sexual fantasies? Using Alcohol? Secret Contact with minors? Take your pick. If an Offender bites his tongue on any questions other than a sacrifice relevant and irrelevant, he is in deep shit.


Ideally, to classify questions as relevant, irrelevant, or "control," one should know all the questions that will be asked during a chart collection, as well as, in the case of post-conviction polygraph screening, the terms of probation/parole. Note that those in post-conviction polygraph programs will know all of the foregoing.

With regard to your questions, if use of alcohol is proscribed, then a question about alcohol use would almost certainly be relevant, as would secret contact with minors, if such is prohibited. On the other hand, a question about deviant fantasies may well be a "control" question. Under Illinois administrative procedure for sex offender polygraph screening programs (cited at p. 44 of Research Overview: Post Conviction Sex Offender Polygraph Testing, New Mexico Sex Offender Management Board, September 2004):

Quote:
Sex offenders shall not be tested on fantasy, intentions or thoughts. Questions regarding arousal shall be tied to behaviors: e.g., "Have you masturbated to deviant sexual fantasies?"


So a question about "fantasy, intentions or thoughts" not tied to a specific behavior would likely be a "control" question.
  

George W. Maschke
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Re: What type of test am I being given?
Reply #20 - Jul 27th, 2007 at 3:01pm
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You don't have the foggiest George. Unlike other kinds of tests, many rules do not apply with pcsot. An example is the word "intentionally" which in other testing is not usefull, but in PCSOT testing is used regularly-----such as "Are you now intentionally withholding any (on-parole)contact with minors from me today?"



Many of us stopped using the sanctimonious control question cliche's of yesteryears. Control questions these days are very "hot." Quite simply, the clinical polygraph is powerful, and far less recognizable to examinee's than other types of tests. And no, I won't be shedding any light on test constructions for this crowd. aw shucks!



  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: What type of test am I being given?
Reply #21 - Jul 27th, 2007 at 3:12pm
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palerider,

I think you have demonstrated through your disinformational posts in this thread that you in fact have little confidence in the robustness of polygraphy against countermeasures.
  

George W. Maschke
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Re: What type of test am I being given?
Reply #22 - Jul 27th, 2007 at 3:26pm
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uh, ok. hmmmm. Whatever you say.
  
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Re: What type of test am I being given?
Reply #23 - Jul 27th, 2007 at 3:32pm
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palerider wrote on Jul 27th, 2007 at 3:01pm:
Snip...
Quite simply, the clinical polygraph is powerful, and far less recognizable to examinee's than other types of tests.
Snip...


So even if the "clinical" polygraph is powerful, do you think the sequential nature of its use (i.e. quarterly exams) might affect its accuracy due to habituation or sensitization of the subject? In other words, can a previous exam affect the results of a current exam?
  
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Re: What type of test am I being given?
Reply #24 - Jul 27th, 2007 at 3:45pm
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Digi, your question is presumptuous. "quarterly"?  nah. The tests are sequential and/or situational and are not like filing taxes. The examinee must continue manipulating other people---from test to test-----consequently, good behavior isn't immediatly (if ever) known. This proves to be difficult for Offenders to continue to engage in behaviors and indulging fantasies that are empirically proven to increase acute dynamic risk factors.

I am not here to educate, I am here to warn. The two deeds are mutually exclusive.

p.s. I address countermeasures and visits to this and other counterproductive types of websites and secret computer activity on tests. Gotcha! Instead of biting the tongue, maybe Offenders should bite their genitals.  Cool

  
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Re: What type of test am I being given?
Reply #25 - Jul 27th, 2007 at 5:50pm
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palerider wrote on Jul 27th, 2007 at 3:45pm:
Digi, your question is presumptuous.
How so? I'm asking if sequential use of the polygraph might affect its accuracy...

palerider wrote on Jul 27th, 2007 at 3:45pm:
"quarterly"?  nah. The tests are sequential and/or situational and are not like filing taxes.
Regardless of the period, as you state, they are given sequentially...

palerider wrote on Jul 27th, 2007 at 3:45pm:
The examinee must continue manipulating other people---from test to test-----consequently, good behavior isn't immediatly (if ever) known. This proves to be difficult for Offenders to continue to engage in behaviors and indulging fantasies that are empirically proven to increase acute dynamic risk factors.
The evidence that indulging in fantasies (i.e. viewing Playboy) increases acute dynamic risk factors suffers from the same fallacy of composition that the polygraph does. Namely, some who engage in fantasies such as viewing pornography show increased risk factors but not all who engage in fantasies such as viewing pornography show increased risk factors. That's not to say that some behaviors are not indicative of relapse. Engaging in alcohol and drug use is well correlated with relapse but they can be detected without the use of pseudoscience...

palerider wrote on Jul 27th, 2007 at 3:45pm:
I am not here to educate, I am here to warn. The two deeds are mutually exclusive.
I don't think you know the meaning of mutually exclusive...

palerider wrote on Jul 27th, 2007 at 3:45pm:
p.s. I address countermeasures and visits to this and other counterproductive types of websites and secret computer activity on tests. Gotcha! Instead of biting the tongue, maybe Offenders should bite their genitals.  Cool
So if visiting this site and countermeasures are of no help, then why do you feel the need to address it with your examinees?

Back to my original question, can habituation and sensitization occur with sequential polygraph testing? If yes, do they affect any supposed accuracy of the polygraphy?
  
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Re: What type of test am I being given?
Reply #26 - Jul 27th, 2007 at 7:07pm
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D-head, you clearly don't know a thing about sex offender treatment and supervision. What the hell does Playboy have to do with fantasies?! I was referring to deviant fantasies, not masturbating with Playboy.
Honestly, to even be posting on this board without some required reading and hands-on sex offender experience is laughable. Playboy? A sex offender in treatment knows better than to confuse deviant sexual fantasies and masturbating to Playboy. I thought that you were some sort of criminologist or something similar. Jesus H Christ.


serenity now


To answer your question. I don't know. Habituation is a great concern. It's amazing to me that you imply that I am deluded (yadayadayada) from previous posts and threads, and yet you ask questions of me that are better suited for researchers. I am not a researcher. If I read some empirical study about habituation that extends beyond a cautionary tale and is sex offender specific, at that time maybe I'll let you know. If it happens, I will probably be too busy adjusting protocol measures and polygraph modalities to align with said new research.


Why do I test for visits to this site and others? I am more interested in contact with children over all else but I really don't like some half-baked "recovering predator" messing with the charts. It's that simple people. Make a test look spammy with goofy untested and anecdotal countermeasures, and it pisses me and the rest of the team off. When my known countermeasure "attempters" (I have about 30ish at any given time)  so much as miss 1 group therapy or get so much as a speeding ticket, he goes back to prison, period. Offenders are better off failing their test than trying countermeasures. The stink of even a  "suspected countermeasure attempter" (verified or not) will hang around your neck like a dead goose----and will follow you in your "packet" (corrections record)for the rest of your life. I shit you not.
I don't want paroled/probationary sex offenders on the internet period----this site, amazon, myspace, you name it.

FYI, drug tests have countermeasures, so do we stop testing? Alcohol tests are very short fused (short spanned).

Dear DHead,
how do you suggest we monitor sex offenders? Strap yourselves in folks, DHead is going to attempt to build a barn rather than burn one. Cheesy

« Last Edit: Jul 27th, 2007 at 7:36pm by palerider »  
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Re: What type of test am I being given?
Reply #27 - Jul 28th, 2007 at 1:05am
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George, thank you for your feedback about my question. I suppose there are some control questions in my tests that I have overlooked. And maybe I shouldn't put that much thought into it. Like I said earlier, I haven't lied and don't plan on lying or using countermeasures. I am more interested in the legality of the polygraph because it is such an inexact practice and I must take them occasionally. And in doing some reading regarding legislation, there does appear to be some double standards where tests results can be used against someone but not for them in certain instances. I'm going to monitor that closely. I hope that my frankness about my situation was not inappropriate for this message board. I have no intention of sharing details with anyone outside of my support group, although there appears to be some zealots on this site that would like that. I'm sure that's not the purpose of this site. Thanks again George. I really respect your efforts.
  
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Re: What type of test am I being given?
Reply #28 - Jul 29th, 2007 at 7:16pm
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palerider wrote on Jul 27th, 2007 at 7:07pm:
D-head, you clearly don't know a thing about sex offender treatment and supervision.
Because I referred to Playboy as pornography? Sigh...

palerider wrote on Jul 27th, 2007 at 7:07pm:
What the hell does Playboy have to do with fantasies?!
You need to get some imagination...

palerider wrote on Jul 27th, 2007 at 7:07pm:
I was referring to deviant fantasies, not masturbating with Playboy.

Honestly, to even be posting on this board without some required reading and hands-on sex offender experience is laughable. Playboy? A sex offender in treatment knows better than to confuse deviant sexual fantasies and masturbating to Playboy. I thought that you were some sort of criminologist or something similar. Jesus H Christ.
Who gets to decide what's deviant? Playboy and many other men's magazines are considered pornographic by many correctional systems including California...

Pornography, in its much wider sense, is any material - film, print, internet - that is used by an individual for titillation. Any number of paraphilias have their own material that no one else would consider to be pornographic such as foot fetishists subscribing to shoe catalogues. Heck, there are people who even get off on Sears catalogues. So how do you decide what's deviant? Oh, that's right, you use the polygraph to get them to admit to what they whack-a-doodle to. How do you know that they're telling the whole truth? Oh, that's right, the polygraph will reveal all...

palerider wrote on Jul 27th, 2007 at 7:07pm:
To answer your question. I don't know. Habituation is a great concern. It's amazing to me that you imply that I am deluded (yadayadayada) from previous posts and threads, and yet you ask questions of me that are better suited for researchers.
Hope springs eternal that some are capable of learning from their mistakes...

palerider wrote on Jul 27th, 2007 at 7:07pm:
I am not a researcher. If I read some empirical study about habituation that extends beyond a cautionary tale and is sex offender specific, at that time maybe I'll let you know. If it happens, I will probably be too busy adjusting protocol measures and polygraph modalities to align with said new research.
I love it when you guys parrot treatment terminology to make it seem like polygraph is not pseudoscience...

palerider wrote on Jul 27th, 2007 at 7:07pm:
Why do I test for visits to this site and others? I am more interested in contact with children over all else but I really don't like some half-baked "recovering predator" messing with the charts. It's that simple people. Make a test look spammy with goofy untested and anecdotal countermeasures, and it pisses me and the rest of the team off. When my known countermeasure "attempters" (I have about 30ish at any given time)  so much as miss 1 group therapy or get so much as a speeding ticket, he goes back to prison, period. Offenders are better off failing their test than trying countermeasures. The stink of even a  "suspected countermeasure attempter" (verified or not) will hang around your neck like a dead goose----and will follow you in your "packet" (corrections record)for the rest of your life. I shit you not.
Are you sure you caught all of the people employing countermeasures? And I thought you said countermeasures were ineffective. If they're ineffective, then how can they affect the test?

palerider wrote on Jul 27th, 2007 at 7:07pm:
I don't want paroled/probationary sex offenders on the internet period----this site, amazon, myspace, you name it.
So how do you prevent them from accessing the internet when it has becomes so ubiquitous? Between iphones, picture and text messaging, and other emerging technologies, you're fighting a losing battle. Offenders also have a legal right to access libraries and other information sources...

palerider wrote on Jul 27th, 2007 at 7:07pm:
FYI, drug tests have countermeasures, so do we stop testing? Alcohol tests are very short fused (short spanned).
Except that drug tests have actually been scientifically proven to detect the very thing they're trying to find and drug tests can be given sequentially without worrying about habituation or sensitization...

palerider wrote on Jul 27th, 2007 at 7:07pm:
Dear DHead,
how do you suggest we monitor sex offenders? Strap yourselves in folks, DHead is going to attempt to build a barn rather than burn one. Cheesy
Before one builds anything, one should make sure that the foundation on which they are building is firm. I think the majority of the containment method is fine except that its reliance on the polygraph undermines its effectiveness. So I'm trying to strip the polygraph from the containment method, decrease officer caseloads, and increase surveillance. The use of therapeutic communities has also shown great promise not only for sex offenders but also for drug and alcohol abusers...

As for the recalcitrant, incapacitation is the only solution be it civil commitment or incarceration...

Just an FYI, I'll be traveling the next few weeks and will only have intermittent access to the internet but I eagerly await your next barrage of vitriol, ad hom, and self-deception...
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Lloyd Ploense
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Re: What type of test am I being given?
Reply #29 - Aug 15th, 2007 at 2:54pm
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palerider:

It seems from your post history that you are involved in some manner with monitoring the activities of convicted sex offenders.  If this is correct kudos to you Sir.  However, you are likely wasting taxpayer money by seeking to do so with the prop con of polygraph testing.  Also, you are not meeting the needs of our citizens for protection from sex offenders by using a method that does not work.

Some might be convinced you can determine deception while you have them attached to a polygraph and therefore either refrain from lying or confess.  Yet, in general, use of the polygraph cheats us good taxpaying citizens out of protection from despicable criminals by our fine LE agencies.  Please let me suggest a method that may actually function. 

Convicted sex offenders on parole may be physically attached to a monitoring system connected to the telecommunications network.  Many parents have purchased cell phones for their children that track their movements through the GPS system.  Simply attach an anklet containing a similar system with always on voice transmission to the offender.  Automated systems for location and voice recognition of key words can easily be devised to queue LE to be ready and waiting.  Should the offender engage in conduct that violates the terms of probation, he or she might be stopped before committing further crimes.

Though this might seem a bit draconian, it presents a viable and cost effective means to limit future sex crimes by known offenders.

Lloyd Ploense
PS:  We’re long past 1984 Dude.
  
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