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QUESTIONS FOR POLYGRAPH EXAMINERS
Jun 11th, 2007 at 4:44pm
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A few questions for the lurking p/g examiners:

1  Why can't the examinee have an independent person watching over the examiners shoulder?
   (just to ensure that we dont hit the space bar too late or too early )

2  Why wont p/g examiners provide the examinee with copies of his/her charts immediately
   following the examination?

3  Why not place the videocam directly behind the examiner, so that the examiners movements
  - as well as those of examinee can be later observed?

4  Why is it necessary to use the old card trick or stim test ? what is the real purpose thereof?

5  How come most of the complaints on this site relate p/g examiners telling the examinee immediately
   after the exam that he has failed..? No QC procedures in place.?? Using software scoring..??
  Weren't you guys taught to score your charts manually?

6  What is the APA's latest position on utilising scoring software?


Finally, some advice to all examiness - when you are told that you have to undergo p/g examination
make the request that you would like a copy of your charts immediately the examination concludes.
Tell him you will bring a CD with in case his printer suddenly breaks down.
Take a blank CD with in case - tell the examiner that it is your constitutional right to have copies.
Let him know that you will have the tests independently verified and scored.
  
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Re: QUESTIONS FOR POLYGRAPH EXAMINERS
Reply #1 - Jun 12th, 2007 at 12:23am
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1904

Don't hold your breath while waiting on intelligent answers to your questions.

Suppling a copy of the chart along with a couple of your other questions have been asked here before. I don't remember any positive responses.

Hey Nonombre

Care to take a shot at answering these quesions? They all sound logical to me.
  
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Re: QUESTIONS FOR POLYGRAPH EXAMINERS
Reply #2 - Jun 12th, 2007 at 2:30am
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Quote:
A few questions for the lurking p/g examiners:

1  Why can't the examinee have an independent person watching over the examiners shoulder?
   (just to ensure that we dont hit the space bar too late or too early )

2  Why wont p/g examiners provide the examinee with copies of his/her charts immediately
   following the examination?

3  Why not place the videocam directly behind the examiner, so that the examiners movements
  - as well as those of examinee can be later observed?

4  Why is it necessary to use the old card trick or stim test ? what is the real purpose thereof?

5  How come most of the complaints on this site relate p/g examiners telling the examinee immediately
   after the exam that he has failed..? No QC procedures in place.?? Using software scoring..??
  Weren't you guys taught to score your charts manually?

6  What is the APA's latest position on utilising scoring software?


Okay, I'll give this a try...

1.  Why can't the examinee have an independent person watching over the examiners shoulder?

A.  I have run countless polygraph examinations with the subject's defense attorney staring at me through a two-way mirror.  I can't think of a more significant guardian to have watching a polygraph exam.  Can you?

2.  Why wont p/g examiners provide the examinee with copies of his/her charts immediately following the examination?

A.  Why does'nt your doctor provide you with your own personal autographed copy of your colonscopy pictures?  If you should need a copy of those very attractive snap shots, (for a second opinion), your doctor can make them available.  I have provided polygraph charts many times.

3  Why not place the videocam directly behind the examiner, so that the examiners movements as well as those of examinee can be later observed?

A.   That depends on the set-up of the room.  In my polygraph room, the camera picks up my profile during the exam (I've been told I look like George Clooney from that side)

4.  Why is it necessary to use the old card trick or stim test ? what is the real purpose thereof?

A.  I have never used a "card trick."  I run ACQT tests for several reasons.  One reason is to see if the examinee cooperates and follows directions.

5  How come most of the complaints on this site relate p/g examiners telling the examinee immediately after the exam that he has failed..? No QC procedures in place.?? Using software scoring..??  Weren't you guys taught to score your charts manually?

A.  That was more than one question, but here goes:  I have the advantage of working in an office with several examiners, so I always have someone available to Q.C. my work before my diagnosis is final. (built in 2nd opinion) and NO, I never use computerized scoring algorithms.  

6  What is the APA's latest position on utilising scoring software?

A.  Good question.  I'll have to ask.

Now I have a question for you:

Why are you on the internet advising people to abuse prescribed drugs?  How would you feel if some poor kid overdosed based on your asinine advice?  AND don't even try to suggest that someone can't overdose on those medications.  I once responded to a college dorm where a freshman died from a Motrin overdose....

Regards,

Nonombre Cool

  
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Re: QUESTIONS FOR POLYGRAPH EXAMINERS
Reply #3 - Jun 12th, 2007 at 2:59pm
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nonombre wrote on Jun 12th, 2007 at 2:30am:
Quote:
A few questions for the lurking p/g examiners:


1.  Why can't the examinee have an independent person watching over the examiners shoulder?

A.  I have run countless polygraph examinations with the subject's defense attorney staring at me through a two-way mirror.  I can't think of a more significant guardian to have watching a polygraph exam.  Can you?


1904: Staring at you from a distance aint the same thing and dont you just know it. Watching over
        the shoulder would keep gung-ho p/g examiners in line.

[/quote]

2.  Why wont p/g examiners provide the examinee with copies of his/her charts immediately following the examination?

A.  Why does'nt your doctor provide you with your own personal autographed copy of your colonscopy pictures?  If you should need a copy of those very attractive snap shots, (for a second opinion), your doctor can make them available.  I have provided polygraph charts many times.

[/quote]
1904: You didnt answer the question, because you dont want to divulge the real reason. examiners
         dont want to run the risk of being second-guessed or even shown up as a-holes.

[/quote]

3  Why not place the videocam directly behind the examiner, so that the examiners movements as well as those of examinee can be later observed?

A.   That depends on the set-up of the room.  In my polygraph room, the camera picks up my profile during the exam (I've been told I look like George Clooney from that side)

[/quote]
1904: Again, you didnt answer the question. Refer my response to Ans 2 above.

[/quote]
4.  Why is it necessary to use the old card trick or stim test ? what is the real purpose thereof?

A.  I have never used a "card trick."  I run ACQT tests for several reasons.  One reason is to see if the examinee cooperates and follows directions.

[/quote]
1904: You must be one of the very few that doesn't start with the old BS right from the outset.

[/quote]
5  How come most of the complaints on this site relate p/g examiners telling the examinee immediately after the exam that he has failed..? No QC procedures in place.?? Using software scoring..??  Weren't you guys taught to score your charts manually?

A.  That was more than one question, but here goes:  I have the advantage of working in an office with several examiners, so I always have someone available to Q.C. my work before my diagnosis is final. (built in 2nd opinion) and NO, I never use computerized scoring algorithms.  

[/quote]
1904: You're fairly unique then. No BS stim test; no reliance on scoring software.....mmmmmm??

[/quote]
6  What is the APA's latest position on utilising scoring software?

A.  Good question.  I'll have to ask.

[/quote]
1904: None have been validated. Yet most examiners (except nonombre) rely on BS software scoring.
[/quote]

Now I have a question for you:

Why are you on the internet advising people to abuse prescribed drugs?  How would you feel if some poor kid overdosed based on your asinine advice?  AND don't even try to suggest that someone can't overdose on those medications.  I once responded to a college dorm where a freshman died from a Motrin overdose....

[/quote]
1904: Very emotional outburst...! I didnt encourage anyone to ABUSE. I did say that a limited one-off
        dosage will help. Once-off use of any of those meds can hardly be termed abuse. One would have
        to imbibe a months worth to OD. Seeing as how non of those meds gets you "high" - It is difficult
        to imagine why one would want to overdose. But I guess if one wanted to, one could swallow 100
        Tylenols and hope to see dragons in the kitchen . And if that doesn't do it, swallow a gallon of
        kerosene and stick a lit match up the rear end - maybe get to see the northern lights. Maybe not.

[/quote]
  
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Re: QUESTIONS FOR POLYGRAPH EXAMINERS
Reply #4 - Jun 19th, 2007 at 9:24am
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May I say first, I am a Civilian. just like most of you here on this site. I don't like lairs, but doesn't mean I don't lie myself. WE ALL DO. Sometime or another, we do. The Bush Lies. I bet there are hundreds of things he has lied about and no one has caught him or bothered to something about. But when taking a P/G, Why lie to beat it? WHY LIE AT ALL? WHY USE C/M's TO THROW IT OFF? really. if you are telling the truth, WHY DO IT? There is one REAL way to beat it, tell the truth and you win. That's all it takes. The Truth. Didn't mommy and daddy teach you to be honest? or just some liar that cheats his/her way into or out of things? I'm not saying they are good, I am not saying they are bad. I just think that People should GROW UP and HAVE SOME IN INTEGRITY. Truly, If I was an empolyer OR an DA or anything that needed someone to take a P/G, I would take the honest one over the liar because at least I could count on hearing the truth about things when I need it.
  
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Re: QUESTIONS FOR POLYGRAPH EXAMINERS
Reply #5 - Jun 19th, 2007 at 3:36pm
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someoneunimportant wrote on Jun 19th, 2007 at 9:24am:
May I say first, I am a Civilian. just like most of you here on this site. I don't like lairs, but doesn't mean I don't lie myself. WE ALL DO. Sometime or another, we do. The Bush Lies. I bet there are hundreds of things he has lied about and no one has caught him or bothered to something about. But when taking a P/G, Why lie to beat it? WHY LIE AT ALL? WHY USE C/M's TO THROW IT OFF? really. if you are telling the truth, WHY DO IT? There is one REAL way to beat it, tell the truth and you win. That's all it takes. The Truth. Didn't mommy and daddy teach you to be honest? or just some liar that cheats his/her way into or out of things? I'm not saying they are good, I am not saying they are bad. I just think that People should GROW UP and HAVE SOME IN INTEGRITY. Truly, If I was an empolyer OR an DA or anything that needed someone to take a P/G, I would take the honest one over the liar because at least I could count on hearing the truth about things when I need it.



How cute. A real Civilian. A real live, breathing HONEST civilian that doesn't live in a lair. Cutesy Pie doesn't like liars, but does lie him/herself.

You see, cute one, it's those lies that you also sometimes tell, that you may
just at some stage in your life want to keep out of the public domain or from
a potential empolyer.

Now, if you have been actually reading past posts, you would have observed
that cute people as yourself have told tiny little white lies under p/g examination - and were consequently denied empolyment or advancement.

However, methinks that you might just be a student p/g examiner, bored,
and playing on the internet at tea time.

Basically, your advice on how to deal with the p/g is shite.


  
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Re: QUESTIONS FOR POLYGRAPH EXAMINERS
Reply #6 - Jun 20th, 2007 at 9:49pm
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someoneunimportant wrote on Jun 19th, 2007 at 9:24am:
May I say first, I am a Civilian. just like most of you here on this site. I don't like lairs, but doesn't mean I don't lie myself. WE ALL DO. Sometime or another, we do. The Bush Lies. I bet there are hundreds of things he has lied about and no one has caught him or bothered to something about. But when taking a P/G, Why lie to beat it? WHY LIE AT ALL? WHY USE C/M's TO THROW IT OFF? really. if you are telling the truth, WHY DO IT? There is one REAL way to beat it, tell the truth and you win. That's all it takes. The Truth. Didn't mommy and daddy teach you to be honest? or just some liar that cheats his/her way into or out of things? I'm not saying they are good, I am not saying they are bad. I just think that People should GROW UP and HAVE SOME IN INTEGRITY. Truly, If I was an empolyer OR an DA or anything that needed someone to take a P/G, I would take the honest one over the liar because at least I could count on hearing the truth about things when I need it.

I told the truth on all four of my polygraphs and failed the first three.  I have concluded that passing a polygraph has nothing at all to do with telling the truth.

I agree that a person should be honest.  But your simplistic notion of, "There is one REAL way to beat it, tell the truth and you win. That's all it takes." is laughable.

Do you truly imagine that every single person on this message board who claims to have told the truth and failed is lying?  Every single one?  That all of them actually lied on their polygraph and are lying now when they say they told the truth?  In order to write that childish drivel you have posted you must believe that, because if you believe that even a single person told the truth and failed anyway then your idea that 'all it takes to beat the polygraph is to tell the truth' would have to be wrong, wouldn't it?

  

Lorsque vous utilisez un argumentum ad hominem, tout le monde sait que vous êtes intellectuellement faillite.
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Re: QUESTIONS FOR POLYGRAPH EXAMINERS
Reply #7 - Jun 24th, 2007 at 3:58pm
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Wow.  Nonombre, a polygrapher, actually answered questions about the polygraph in a substantial manner.   But here is a question that I guarantee he can't possibly answer:

    If a subject's knowledge of the polygraph does not effect the accuracy of results, what then is the purpose of the deception that is used by polygraphers when conducting exams?


I have asked that question or its equivalent to over two score polygraphers and none has been able to give an answer; most haven't even tried.  Such unanimity cannot be happenstance; it is certainly designed.  I have no doubt that nonombre, while knowing the answer as well as any thinking and informed person, will not give it.  He is a polygrapher, and a polygrapher cannot answer the question without undermining the basis of his own profession and practice.

Of course, the reason that deception is used during polygraph exams is that it does influence accuracy.  Deception is needed to get the subject to attempt her own deception and creating the correct psychological set within the subject aids in the creation of psychophysiological responses that can be read and analyzed.  And if the deceived subject creates more accurate results, the non-deceived subject creates less accurate ones.  Thus the polygraph is biased against people who know how it works.  People who are dumb, who don't think for themselves, who accept things on authority, and who are not curious are all less qualified to have important jobs in public service but are the only people who can pass the polygraph that is required for so many of those jobs.

At least, that is the only conclusion that makes any sense of the facts.  I am open to any reasonable alternative but polygraphers, while denying the hypothesis, refuse--completely refuse--to provide any sensible explanation.  I think that refusal should be made clear.  So, let's all wait to see whether nonombre (1) ignores the question or (2) offers some pitiful sophistry in an attempt to pretend he's answered it.  Personally, I hope he goes route (2) so we can pick apart his little lies.  Actually, they won't be his lies; they always seem to be the same so I'm sure that polygraph school and/or the seminars they go to teach them how to respond to questions like this.  Very well, we'll see how good of a parrot he is.  He certainly won't take option (3): telling the truth.

Whatever course you take, nonombre, you'll be damned.  You can't answer without producing ridiculous lies that I will take the greatest pleasure in picking apart, piece by piece.  And you can't ignore the question without lending further credence to the conclusion that your little box doesn't work on people who know how it works.  If you posit as a brute fact that it does work equally well if the deception is understood and that the deception is done for no reason at all and you ask us to take that on your authority, or the authority of some article in an out of print and unaccessible journal published by your polygraph pals, then I shall respond by asking "Well, then, why go to all the trouble of deceiving the subjects of your exam and trying to hide the fact that you do so?" and you'll be worse off than before you proffered that paltry response.

Yes, there's really no good alternative for you here.  You can't give the honest answer to the question without admitting that your profession is built on a lie and doesn't work on intelligent, skeptical people who think for themselves and research things.  And you can't use any of your lies (well, you can, but they'll be detected and make you look silly for insulting our intelligence).  And not responding is as good as an admission that I'm right and you're wrong.  You're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

I'm betting that you try to pretty much ignore this question, nonombre.  That you'll try to brush it off some how.  But I won't let you do that.  I'll harry you from this forum with the question.  I'll hang it around your neck like an albatross; I'll pin it to your chest like a scarlet letter that'll show everyone that you are a liar and a fraud, unable to answer the most basic question that any thinking person would have about polygraphy.  I'll chase you round Good Hope, and round the Horn, and round the Norway Maelstrom, and round perdition's flames before I let you avoid this question.  So run away.  Go hide.  That's what you do.  That's what you people always do when faced with questions that you can't answer.  That's what you'll do in the end, so do it now and never post on this forum again because this question will pop up on every thread you post to, showing people that you're a liar.  A liar, liar, liar.
  

Is former APA President Skip Webb evil or just stupid?

Is former APA President Ed Gelb an idiot or does the polygraph just not work?

Did you know that polygrapher Sackett doesn't care about detecting deception to relevant questions?
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Re: QUESTIONS FOR POLYGRAPH EXAMINERS
Reply #8 - Jun 26th, 2007 at 2:26am
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Dear Mr. Lethe,

Who urinated in YOUR corn flakes?  You seem a bit, let's say, "emotional?"

Well Mr. Lethe, as seems to be my reputation around here, please humor me by allowing me to answer your rather drawn out, rambling, and truly sad commentary with a small question of my own.  (wouldn't want to make this interaction too easy now would I?):

If your assertion is correct, then why do some governmental agencies require their polygraph examiners to be tested periodically?  After all, if a subject's knowledge of the polygraph DOES effect the accuracy of results (as you imply), what then is the purpose of an agency testing their polygraph examiners every few years?

Now what I expect from you and others on this site is the usual, "oh, it's just a good old boy network, they always pass each other."

Actually, I happen to know for a fact these examinations are almost always administered by very senior polygraph personnel, issues do indeed come up (as they do with a lot of people), and examiners required to undergo this process are usually pretty nervous about their upcoming tests.  The ones I know very much "bare their souls" when they get in the room.

That is called "THE TRUTH" and it is what we live by.  How about you?

And perhaps you further would like to explain to me specifically what "deceptions" a trained, experienced, senior polygraph examiner would be able to inflict on another trained, experienced, senior polygraph examiner

Hmmm???? Grin
  
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Re: QUESTIONS FOR POLYGRAPH EXAMINERS
Reply #9 - Jun 26th, 2007 at 4:29am
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nonombre,

Your reply does not substantially address Lethe's question: "If a subject's knowledge of the polygraph does not effect the accuracy of results, what then is the purpose of the deception that is used by polygraphers when conducting exams?"

In federal agencies with polygraph screening programs, polygraphers must also be polygraphed for the sake of keeping up appearances. But it's all for show. The polygraphed polygrapher will always pass (unless, perhaps, he has written a book that pisses off the senior polygraphers of whom you speak).

Now, how about answering Lethe's question?
  

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR POLYGRAPH EXAMINERS
Reply #10 - Jun 26th, 2007 at 5:14am
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Lethe,

Deception is not needed for an examination.  One can simply chose meaningful comparison questions that can cause a physiological response based on the salience of them to the individual.

The Concealed Information Test does in no form use deception.

Please cite for me research and subsequent validation studies that have shown that deception is unequivocally necessary to create accurate results.
  

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR POLYGRAPH EXAMINERS
Reply #11 - Jun 26th, 2007 at 5:29am
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J.B.,

Note that Lethe's question implicitly concerns control question test (CQT) polygraphy, not concealed information tests. You maintain that "deception is not needed." If this is so, then could you please answer Lethe's question: "If a subject's knowledge of the polygraph does not effect the accuracy of results, what then is the purpose of the deception that is used by polygraphers when conducting exams?"
  

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Re: QUESTIONS FOR POLYGRAPH EXAMINERS
Reply #12 - Jun 26th, 2007 at 12:07pm
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J.B.,

Of course examiner deception occurs each and every time a lie test is performed (see below for my considerably earlier discussion (post) of same with a polygraph examiner).  I would suggest that this contorted conditioning not only applies to the examinee, but to the examiner.  Perhaps you and I are aware of one examiner whose boss believes he might lose his "true believer" status and become confused/polluted if he were to speak to a critic of polygraphy, yes?  The aforementioned post regarding examiner deception:
Quote:
Examiner:

You say in part:

“…Yes, an examiner lies during the conduct of an interview.  Every investigator I have ever known or heard of, from law enforcement to insurance to private lies during the interview process.  The United States Supreme Court sanctioned this type of activity decades ago.  This is an appropriate and accepted aspect of law enforcement.  Its not like its any secret, I fail to understand why this is such a significant issue here…”

     You are to be congratulated for your candor and thanked for furthering these on-going discussions.  For the present, without much elaboration (I plan to start a new thread regarding polygraph “examiner” deception), I would like to simply characterize that which you describe as “…examiner lies during the conduct of an interview…” and list certain of those deceptions.  Deceptions for the average examiner would include (but not necessarily be limited to) intentional oversimplification, confuscation, misrepresentation, misstatement, exaggeration, and known false statement.  Amongst the areas and activities that such deceptions will occur within a given polygraph exam and on a continual basis are the following:

(1)      A discussion of the autonomic nervous system, its anatomy and physiology, its role in the conduct of a polygraph examination, and the examiner’s background as it supports his pontifications regarding said subjects.  In general, an examiner has no or little educational background that would qualify him to lead such a discussion and his discussion contains the likely error that gross oversimplification often leads to.  

(2)      The discussion, conduct of, and post-test explanations of the “stim” test, more recently referred to as an “acquaintance” test.  

 
(3)      Examiner representations about the function of irrelevant questions in a control question test (CQT) polygraph exam.

(4)      Examiner representations about the function of control questions and their relationship to relevant questions in a CQT exam.  

 
(5)      Examiner representations about any recognized validity of the CQT (or other exam formats) in a screening application and about what conclusions can reasonably be drawn from the exam at hand, i.e. the one principally of concern to the examinee.

(6)      A host of misrepresentations that are made as “themes” and spun to examinees during a post-test interrogation.


(7)      The notion that polygraphy merits consideration as a scientific discipline, forensic psychophysiology or other…

This listing is not offered as complete (nor in any way are the surrounding thoughts fully developed) but merely as a starting point for the following commentary and recommendation.   You have stated that court opinions have been written which sanction the use of deception on the part of law enforcement officers.  Agreed.  I would suggest for your consideration the following points:

(1)      The deceptions cited in such decisions are generally isolated to specific actions/conversations occurring within specific investigations, not pandemic and not necessary to the day-to-day general and routine practices of law enforcement officers.

(2)      The decisions you might cite clearly refer to law enforcement officers.  On what basis would you extend this “license to lie” to civilian polygraph examiners conducting polygraph exams related to purely administrative, commercial, or domestic subjects or even to polygraphers hired by the accused in a criminal matter?

For a number of years I have called for the abolition of polygraph screening.  I have done so for a variety of reasons, the most important of which is what I believe to be the large scale victimization of people, many of whom have presented their relevant testimony on this web site and message board.  I am also offended by any negative impact that pseudoscience has on legitimate science and in particular on meaningful and legitimate forensic science as practiced in the crime laboratory.  

Although I hope my expanded ability to opine as a recently retired employee of the FBI will augment the voices of those already carrying the torch and lead to the aforementioned abolition, let me begin by suggesting an intermediate step.  Although I do not believe for a minute that all of the deception, lack of due process, etc. that accompanies  polygraph screening is justified (even when practiced by law enforcement and/or intelligence officers), for the sake of immediate conversation, let’s assume that it is.  If in fact it is proper practice and the realm of the law enforcement officer, then it resides within the realm of an advocate, i.e., those who would investigate and prosecute crime.  As such it is clearly not a role for a neutral party and in the realm of the amicus curiae expert of the forensic science community.  Aside from clearly falling within the role of an adversary and not a neutral forensic expert, I would further maintain, that in the numerous disciplines and sub-disciplines now recognized as being a part of forensic science (my background has largely revolved around the practices of forensic chemistry and toxicology), there is no accepted role for deception in any of these disciplines.  Far from being accepted, any such deception would likely be (and has been) the subject of administrative or criminal inquiry.  

Let me summarize what I have just said…the deceptions such as are used in polygraphy, if they are to be accepted, belong in the realm of advocates, like police interrogators and prosecutors and not with parties that are supposed to be neutral, like forensic laboratories.  Before we examine further whether polygraph screening merits continuation in any setting based on the complexities of validity, utility, and deterrence, let’s begin by removing it from that setting where it clearly has no role—the forensic crime laboratory and related professional scientific bodies…  Although there is a clear role for scientific inquiry into polygraph practices, there is no basis for polygraphy being a part of the forensic family or the forensic crime laboratory.  
  
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Re: QUESTIONS FOR POLYGRAPH EXAMINERS
Reply #13 - Jun 26th, 2007 at 2:16pm
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Hi Nonombre,

I see that you somewhat skillfully sidestepped my question regarding 'Instant Results'
My contention being that for an examiner to provide instant results to an examinee it
is safe to assume that said examiner has used a software scoring program - none of
which have been validated by APA research.

APA Standards of Practice refer:

3.10.1 Examiners conclusions and opinions are required to be based on quantitative or numerical scoring for all evidentiary examinations and for all specific issue investigative examinations. The scoring method and decision rules shall have been validated through published and replicated research demonstrating that they are valid and reliable, and appropriate for the type of examination.

Further: Examiners are bound by rule 3.9.3 to use only 'validated testing techniques' for the resolution of Specific Issues. At last inquiry made, only 3 testing protocols carried APA validation. Bacskters x2 and
Reid x1. Yet, many or most examiners use arbitrary variants of an MGQT , particularly USAF MGQT
and ZOC protocols dreamed up by themselves.

But why would we expect anything more from P/G examiners.??

The BS rolls onwards, it's evil smelling cloud contaminating the innocent.
  
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Re: QUESTIONS FOR POLYGRAPH EXAMINERS
Reply #14 - Jun 26th, 2007 at 4:35pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Ooh!  An ad hominem attack!  If someone asks you a question that you can't answer without destroying your life's work, just call them emotional and sad.  That'll make it all go away.  Oh, wait... Hmm.  Upon examination, it appears that that is not a valid way to support a point or to argue.  And, as George pointed out, you have not answered the question.  Score: Lethe: 1, nonombre: 0

The only real point you bring up is the old one: "If the polygraph didn't work on those who know how it works, why would it be used on polygraphers, who know how it works?"  As George pointed out, this is largely for appearance sake.  How would they explain not using the awesome, lie-detecting polygraph on polygraphers?  There's really no excuse they could offer that would make any sense, so they put you guys on the box too.

Also, I suspect you are misunderstanding the subtleties of my argument, which doesn't surprise me since I don't think you can really allow yourself to question your profession too deeply.  For my argument to prevail, it is not necessary for me to prove that the polygraph is no more accurate than pure chance when the subject knows how it works.  It is only necessary for me to demonstrate that the polygraph is significantly less accurate when the subject knows how it works. And that is indeed what I believe, that it has some slight ability to detect deception even with knowledgeable subjects, but not enough to outweigh the costs of using it.  So it can still detect some issues with very senior polygraphers, but their exams will be less accurate than those of people who come in with a blank slate vis-a-vis the polygraph upon which you guys can create the correct psychological set.  There's nothing to lose by polygraphing polygraphers and much to lose in terms of credibility if they don't, so they do.  Your argument therefore gains no traction and does nothing to help you out here.  Time for round two.

Again: it is obvious that the Probable Lie Control Question test involves deception on the part of the examiner.  That is not in doubt nor in question.  Secondly, you claim--and correct me if I am wrong!--that knowledge of the polygraph does not effect the accuracy of results.  Fine.  Let us assume, arguendo, that that is correct.  But in that case, nonombre--now attend, sir, most carefully, for I want a considered answer--what, then, is the purpose of the deception?  I pause for a response.

I suggest you resign and leave immediately.  It is better to be silent and thought a liar and a fraud than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.  But silence shall be no salvation for you--no refuge can save the hireling and slave.  So, c'mon, nonombre.  What else you got?  Oh, and who peed in my cornflakes?  You did.  You and all your vile kind.  So, nonombre: bring it on.
  

Is former APA President Skip Webb evil or just stupid?

Is former APA President Ed Gelb an idiot or does the polygraph just not work?

Did you know that polygrapher Sackett doesn't care about detecting deception to relevant questions?
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QUESTIONS FOR POLYGRAPH EXAMINERS

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