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AntiPolygraph.org Message Board › Polygraph and CVSA Forums › Polygraph Policy › Polygraph Now Last Stage of FBI Hiring Process?

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Polygraph Now Last Stage of FBI Hiring Process? (Read 17175 times)

George W. Maschke Global Moderator Offline Make-believe science yields make-believe security. Posts: 6230 Joined: Sep 29^th, 2000	Polygraph Now Last Stage of FBI Hiring Process? Apr 11^th, 2007 at 2:45pm	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	In an interview with Los Angeles radio station KNX 1070 on 10 April 2007, retired FBI polygraph examiner Jack Trimarco stated that the polygraph is the last step of the FBI's hiring process, and that after it, those who pass get on the plane and go to Quantico. This is news to me. Although I am aware of cases where the Bureau has begun background investigations before administering pre-employment polygraph screening examinations, I heard anything about it necessarily being the last step in the hiring process. Can anyone confirm this?

	George W. Maschke I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time. Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.) E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com Wire: @ap_org Threema: A4PYDD5S Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
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nonombre Especially Senior User Offline Posts: 334 Joined: Jun 18^th, 2005	Re: Polygraph Now Last Stage of FBI Hiring Process Reply #1 - Apr 11^th, 2007 at 10:21pm	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	I don't know anything about where in the hiring process the FBI places the polygraph. I can tell you that it is the last step in the process for my department. I really like the fact that we save it for last, because that means in EVERY case where a polygraph examination reveals disqualifying information (in some cases major felonies), the applicant had first been determined to be "squeeky clean" by a detailed and in depth background investigation. That is what we call "utility" and that is why police applicant polygraph screening will be around for a long time to come. Regards, Nonombre


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Sergeant1107 God Member Offline Posts: 730 Location: Connecticut, USA Joined: May 21^st, 2005 Gender:	Re: Polygraph Now Last Stage of FBI Hiring Process Reply #2 - Apr 11^th, 2007 at 11:40pm	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	nonombre wrote on Apr 11^th, 2007 at 10:21pm: I don't know anything about where in the hiring process the FBI places the polygraph. I can tell you that it is the last step in the process for my department. I really like the fact that we save it for last, because that means in EVERY case where a polygraph examination reveals disqualifying information (in some cases major felonies), the applicant had first been determined to be "squeeky clean" by a detailed and in depth background investigation. That is what we call "utility" and that is why police applicant polygraph screening will be around for a long time to come. Regards, Nonombre Just out of curiosity, how many people who have first been determined to be squeaky clean lie about an undisclosed felony during the polygraph and get away with it? Also, just out of curiosity, how many people who have first been determined to be squeaky clean are disqualified by the polygraph even though they made no damaging admissions and told the truth about everything? I know polygraph examiners are generally willing to believe that screwing an unknown percentage of innocent, truthful applicants is worth it if an unknown percertage of other people make a disqualifying admission. I think that until the number of liars who pass is zero, and until the number of truthful applicants who fail is zero, the utility of the polygraph is an illusion.

	Lorsque vous utilisez un argumentum ad hominem, tout le monde sait que vous êtes intellectuellement faillite.
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EosJupiter Especially Senior User Offline But of Course ... Posts: 483 Location: Always Out There ...... Joined: Feb 28^th, 2005	Re: Polygraph Now Last Stage of FBI Hiring Process Reply #3 - Apr 12^th, 2007 at 1:39am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	nonombre wrote on Apr 11^th, 2007 at 10:21pm: I don't know anything about where in the hiring process the FBI places the polygraph. I can tell you that it is the last step in the process for my department. I really like the fact that we save it for last, because that means in EVERY case where a polygraph examination reveals disqualifying information (in some cases major felonies), the applicant had first been determined to be "squeeky clean" by a detailed and in depth background investigation. That is what we call "utility" and that is why police applicant polygraph screening will be around for a long time to come. Regards, Nonombre Nonombre, As surely as the sun sets and rises, your back just waiting for opportunities such as this. I won't bore you with the semantics of pro vs. anti rhetoric, I would like you to post your data showing the actual number of felonies and adverse information that you have found as of the result of your polygraph efforts. As usual actual data goes along way to backing your position. Or the short of it is, no data, no proof, no valid position with which to base your comment. Regards ...

	Theory into Reality !!
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nonombre Especially Senior User Offline Posts: 334 Joined: Jun 18^th, 2005	Re: Polygraph Now Last Stage of FBI Hiring Process Reply #4 - Apr 12^th, 2007 at 2:23am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	EosJupiter wrote on Apr 12^th, 2007 at 1:39am: nonombre wrote on Apr 11^th, 2007 at 10:21pm: I don't know anything about where in the hiring process the FBI places the polygraph. I can tell you that it is the last step in the process for my department. I really like the fact that we save it for last, because that means in EVERY case where a polygraph examination reveals disqualifying information (in some cases major felonies), the applicant had first been determined to be "squeeky clean" by a detailed and in depth background investigation. That is what we call "utility" and that is why police applicant polygraph screening will be around for a long time to come. Regards, Nonombre Nonombre, As surely as the sun sets and rises, your back just waiting for opportunities such as this. I won't bore you with the semantics of pro vs. anti rhetoric, I would like you to post your data showing the actual number of felonies and adverse information that you have found as of the result of your polygraph efforts. As usual actual data goes along way to backing your position. Or the short of it is, no data, no proof, no valid position with which to base your comment. Regards ... Eos, Just how do you suggest I present my data in such a way as to: 1. Prove to you and others the data is in fact real and actual? 2. Protect the privacy of my applicants and the sources and methods of my department? 3. Not compromise ongoing investigations and prosecutions which may have arisen from some of these cases? 4. Keep my job after disclosing "Law Enforcement Sensitive" statistics and associated materials on the internet? Like others before you who have previously raised these same demands, you know it is impossible to report specifics without compromise. THAT is exactly why you feel so comfortable making such demands.. Good day... Nonombre


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EosJupiter Especially Senior User Offline But of Course ... Posts: 483 Location: Always Out There ...... Joined: Feb 28^th, 2005	Re: Polygraph Now Last Stage of FBI Hiring Process Reply #5 - Apr 12^th, 2007 at 3:53am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	nonombre wrote on Apr 12^th, 2007 at 2:23am: EosJupiter wrote on Apr 12^th, 2007 at 1:39am: nonombre wrote on Apr 11^th, 2007 at 10:21pm: I don't know anything about where in the hiring process the FBI places the polygraph. I can tell you that it is the last step in the process for my department. I really like the fact that we save it for last, because that means in EVERY case where a polygraph examination reveals disqualifying information (in some cases major felonies), the applicant had first been determined to be "squeeky clean" by a detailed and in depth background investigation. That is what we call "utility" and that is why police applicant polygraph screening will be around for a long time to come. Regards, Nonombre Nonombre, As surely as the sun sets and rises, your back just waiting for opportunities such as this. I won't bore you with the semantics of pro vs. anti rhetoric, I would like you to post your data showing the actual number of felonies and adverse information that you have found as of the result of your polygraph efforts. As usual actual data goes along way to backing your position. Or the short of it is, no data, no proof, no valid position with which to base your comment. Regards ... Eos, Just how do you suggest I present my data in such a way as to: 1. Prove to you and others the data is in fact real and actual? 2. Protect the privacy of my applicants and the sources and methods of my department? 3. Not compromise ongoing investigations and prosecutions which may have arisen from some of these cases? 4. Keep my job after disclosing "Law Enforcement Sensitive" statistics and associated materials on the internet? Like others before you who have previously raised these same demands, you know it is impossible to report specifics without compromise. THAT is exactly why you feel so comfortable making such demands.. Good day... Nonombre Nonombre, Be inventive, think outside the box, use another departments data, use data from a known polygraph resource. I am sure there are other places to look besides your own department. Hiring and testing reports are usually public knowlege after a certain amount of time has passed. Use years older reports if you have too. I would never ask you to risk your job, It would be nice to see some real data. Get some of your fellow polygraphers to cough up some reports. Some is always better than none. Valid data proves all, Regards ....

	Theory into Reality !!
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digithead Very Senior User Offline Posts: 150 Joined: Apr 11^th, 2006	Re: Polygraph Now Last Stage of FBI Hiring Process Reply #6 - Apr 12^th, 2007 at 4:41am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	nonombre wrote on Apr 12^th, 2007 at 2:23am: EosJupiter wrote on Apr 12^th, 2007 at 1:39am: nonombre wrote on Apr 11^th, 2007 at 10:21pm: I don't know anything about where in the hiring process the FBI places the polygraph. I can tell you that it is the last step in the process for my department. I really like the fact that we save it for last, because that means in EVERY case where a polygraph examination reveals disqualifying information (in some cases major felonies), the applicant had first been determined to be "squeeky clean" by a detailed and in depth background investigation. That is what we call "utility" and that is why police applicant polygraph screening will be around for a long time to come. Regards, Nonombre Nonombre, As surely as the sun sets and rises, your back just waiting for opportunities such as this. I won't bore you with the semantics of pro vs. anti rhetoric, I would like you to post your data showing the actual number of felonies and adverse information that you have found as of the result of your polygraph efforts. As usual actual data goes along way to backing your position. Or the short of it is, no data, no proof, no valid position with which to base your comment. Regards ... Eos, Just how do you suggest I present my data in such a way as to: 1. Prove to you and others the data is in fact real and actual? 2. Protect the privacy of my applicants and the sources and methods of my department? 3. Not compromise ongoing investigations and prosecutions which may have arisen from some of these cases? 4. Keep my job after disclosing "Law Enforcement Sensitive" statistics and associated materials on the internet? Like others before you who have previously raised these same demands, you know it is impossible to report specifics without compromise. THAT is exactly why you feel so comfortable making such demands.. Good day... Nonombre How about one case that resulted in an indictment? Since indictments are public record, this will not compromise sensitive data. Specifically show a case in which the background investigation failed but the heroic polygrapher saved the day...


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George W. Maschke Global Moderator Offline Make-believe science yields make-believe security. Posts: 6230 Joined: Sep 29^th, 2000	FBI Website Doesn't Say Polygraph Is Last Stage Reply #7 - Apr 12^th, 2007 at 11:58am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	I didn't find any mention of the polygraph being the last stage of the FBI special agent hiring process on the Bureau's website, which lists seven steps, the last of which is a medical examination: 1. Online Application 2. Phase I Testing 3. Phase II Testing 4. Conditional Letter of Appointment 5. Physical Fitness Test 6. FBI Background Investigation [including polygraph] 7. Medical Examination The following description is provided for step 6, the FBI Background Investigation: Quote: Candidates that receive a Conditional Letter of Appointment will also be asked to submit the paperwork necessary to begin the FBI Background Investigation. The background investigation includes: a polygraph examination; credit and arrest checks; interviews with associates, personal and business references, past employers and neighbors; and verification of educational achievements. All applicants must receive an FBI Top Secret security clearance in order to be eligible to become FBI Special Agents. Note that the polygraph is the first component of the background investigation to be listed, though the web page does not state in what order these components are necessarily done.

	George W. Maschke I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time. Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.) E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com Wire: @ap_org Threema: A4PYDD5S Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
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George W. Maschke Global Moderator Offline Make-believe science yields make-believe security. Posts: 6230 Joined: Sep 29^th, 2000	Re: Polygraph Now Last Stage of FBI Hiring Process? Reply #8 - Apr 19^th, 2007 at 3:37pm	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	The U.S. Department of Justice's report, "Use of Polygraph Examinations in the Department of Justice," (1 mb PDF) dated September 2006, states at p. 45 (emphasis added): Quote: For applicants for Special Agent positions, the FBI conducts the polygraph examination before beginning the background investigation. That enables the FBI to limit the costs of conducting a background investigation when applicants are determined to be ineligible for employment based on their polygraph examination results, e.g., they admitted to disqualifying behavior during the examination process. The FBI investigators are also able to use information gathered during the polygraph examination to focus background investigations. FBI Security officials said that, before 2005, all applicants were given polygraph examinations before their background investigations were initiated, but in 2005 the FBI decided to begin the background investigation process for non-agent applicants before conducting their polygraph examinations as a time-saving measure. So if the FBI is now administering pre-employment polygraph screening examinations only after completion of the background investigation, it is a quite recent change.

	George W. Maschke I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time. Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.) E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com Wire: @ap_org Threema: A4PYDD5S Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
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ImaLiar New User Offline Posts: 3 Joined: May 8^th, 2007	Re: Polygraph Now Last Stage of FBI Hiring Process? Reply #9 - May 8^th, 2007 at 2:40am	Mark & Quote Quote Print Post
	Quote: The U.S. Department of Justice's report, "Use of Polygraph Examinations in the Department of Justice," (1 mb PDF) dated September 2006, states at p. 45 ... : Quote: ...in 2005 the FBI decided to begin the background investigation process for non-agent applicants before conducting their polygraph examinations as a time-saving measure. I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I don't see how this saves time. I mean, mine was scheduled & completed a few days after I got the offer letter, but the background investigation would take months. What am I missing?


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Polygraph Now Last Stage of FBI Hiring Process?

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