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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box LieBabyCryBaby
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Sharing My Polygraph Experience
Jan 17th, 2007 at 11:30pm
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If you've been a frequent visitor to this forum, no doubt you've read some of my posts. I often talk about how George et. al talk a big game, but that they have no actual experience using the machine they hate so much. Theory is theory, and there is theory on both sides.  However, there is no substitute for experience. 



Edited to fix link to media file. -- AntiPolygraph.org Administrator
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: Sharing My Polygraph Experience
Reply #1 - Jan 18th, 2007 at 9:46am
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LieBabyCryBaby wrote on Jan 17th, 2007 at 11:30pm:
I often talk about how George et. al talk a big game, but that they have no actual experience using the machine they hate so much.


I do not consider the polygraph issue to be a "game," and the arguments against polygraphy set forth in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector are supported by abundant references to the scientific literature that skeptical readers may check for themselves.

Just as one needn't be an experienced phrenologist to recognize that phrenology is pseudoscience, one needn't be an experienced polygrapher to recognize that so, too, is polygraphy. As I noted in a recent message thread, polygraphy has the hallmarks of pseudoscience stamped all over it.

Note that the great majority of polygraphers who so vehemently reject the competing pseudoscience of voice stress analysis have "no actual experience using the machine they hate so much."

But I do not hate polygraph machines. Rather, that which I abhor is the entirely unnecessary and avoidable injustice toward the innocent that predictably results from misplaced reliance on the pseudoscience of polygraphy.

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...Theory is theory, and there is theory on both sides....


The polygraph field offers no theory that explains known facts about human physiology associated with deception. The National Academy of Sciences Report, The Polygraph and Lie Detection, notes at p. 102:

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  • The bulk of polygraph research can accurately be characterized as atheoretical.  The field includes little or no research on a variety of variables and mechanisms that link deception or other phenomena to the physiological responses measured in polygraph tests. 
  • Research on the polygraph has not progressed over time in the manner of a typical scientific field.  Polygraph research has failed to build and refine its theoretical base, has proceeded in relative isolation from related fields of basic science, and has not made use of many conceptual, theoretical, and technological advances in basic science that are relevant to the physiological detection of deception. As a consequence, the field has not accumulated knowledge over time or strengthened its scientific underpinnings in any significant manner.


You titled your post "Sharing My Polygraph Experience." But instead of doing so, you posted a link to a snarky Old Spice commercial by a B-list actor. (Note that for security reasons, JavaScript is not allowed in posts; YouTube links may be posted without JavaScript.) Why not take this opportunity to tell the story of your actual experience with the polygraph, and how you came to be a polygraph examiner?
« Last Edit: Jan 18th, 2007 at 12:59pm by George W. Maschke »  

George W. Maschke
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Re: Sharing My Polygraph Experience
Reply #2 - Jan 18th, 2007 at 3:27pm
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George,

I've been sharing my polygraph experience throughout this forum, and I know you've been reading all of my posts. Right now, without me, your forum is dull as dirt, with the same old tired rhetoric. I created this new post simply as a way of poking some more fun at you and others like you who claim to know what they are talking about when all they've ever really done is fail polygraphs and read lab studies.

I have previously stated that I do think that your claim to have been unjustly treated in the polygraph process is true. But just because it happened to you does NOT mean that it is as common as you continually claim or imply.

You belittle my experience. I belittle your inexperience. I don't belittle you as a person--or at least not seriously--because I don't know you.

Oh, and he may be a B-list actor, but in this commercial he reminds me of some polygraphers I know.   Cheesy
« Last Edit: Jan 18th, 2007 at 3:55pm by LieBabyCryBaby »  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: Sharing My Polygraph Experience
Reply #3 - Jan 18th, 2007 at 4:14pm
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LieBabyCryBaby wrote on Jan 18th, 2007 at 3:27pm:
George,

I've been sharing my polygraph experience throughout this forum, and I know you've been reading all of my posts.


Indeed I have. But in a post titled "Sharing My Polygraph Experience," it would seem appropriate for you to bring together the scattered details as a coherent narrative for the benefit of those who have not read all of your posts.

Quote:
Right now, without me, your forum is dull as dirt, with the same old tired rhetoric. I created this new post simply as a way of poking some more fun at you and others like you who claim to know what they are talking about when all they've ever really done is fail polygraphs and read lab studies.


In addition to poking fun, might you be so kind as to point out anything I've said regarding polygraphy that you believe to be erroneous, and support your view with an argument grounded in facts and reason rather than a mere appeal to the authority of your professed experience? I care deeply about the truth, and should I be mistaken in my beliefs regarding polygraphy, I shall be glad to be shown my error.

Quote:
I have previously stated that I do think that your claim to have been unjustly treated in the polygraph process is true. But just because it happened to you does NOT mean that it is as common as you continually claim or imply.


Agreed, but I have not argued that it does. Indeed, I have not ventured so far as to estimate the false positive rate associated with any particular agency's polygraph program, or with polygraphy in general. Polygraph failure rates, to the extent that they have been made public for certain agencies, provide merely an upper limit. But given what is known about polygraphy's lack of scientific underpinnings, with failure rates as high as 50% in some pre-employment polygraph screening programs (e.g., FBI and LAPD), it is clear that the false positive rate with such agencies is not insignificant.

Quote:
You belittle my experience. I belittle your inexperience. I don't belittle you as a person--or at least not seriously--because I don't know you.


When you make a claim that is unsupported by the scientific literature (for example, that you can detect polygraph countermeasures), but fail to support such claim with anything more than the assertion that you know it to be true from your personal experience, I fail to find that sort of argument particularly convincing, as would, I daresay, most critically thinking persons.
  

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Re: Sharing My Polygraph Experience
Reply #4 - Jan 24th, 2007 at 8:09am
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LieBabyCryBaby, you should be ashamed of yourself.  You continue to defend a machine that deep down inside you know is JUNK!  It does nothing but brand innocent people as liars.  I am living proof that the piece of crap has NO validity.  You can be darn sure that I am on a mission to have them completely exsposed and God willing BANNED!  I am only one person, but I will not give up!  I have already started hanging flyers everywhere I go.  They state the truth about the polygraph and they give this web address for anyone to look at.  Maybe just maybe it will start a public outcry against their use.  What amazes me is that the only people that support the polygraph are ones with a vested interest.  People such as yourself, manufactures of the machine, LAZY no good snake detectives that would rather use one than do actual police work to get to the truth.  I have read sooooo many psychology and science journals and spoken to college psychology professors.  They ALL say the same thing.  The polygraph is a psuedoscience, a joke, JUNK SCIENCE, completely without validity and the list of descriptions go on and on.  These people have NO reason to lie.  They only report what they observe.  People such as yourself have plenty of reason to deceive the public.  YOU MAKE MONEY from this JUNK SCIENCE!  That is PATHETIC!
  
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Re: Sharing My Polygraph Experience
Reply #5 - Jan 25th, 2007 at 3:21am
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Hey hey, you know I am going to stand up for crybaby here, I may not like the overall process but he did tell directly how it is, the machine itself is all science, the art and skill come in the polygrapher. I agree these things should not have as much weight as they do but I can understand to some small extent why there used.
  
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Re: Sharing My Polygraph Experience
Reply #6 - Jan 25th, 2007 at 7:41am
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Fender, try explaining that to the hundreds of people every year that are inaccurately branded as liars and either refused employment or worse yet thrown in jail!  If it happened to you, maybe you would have a little more understanding.  Anything that can be manipulated and abused such as the polygraph should be banned!  The proponent side of the poly argument is yet to show any FEASABLE EVIDENCE that this machine is even remotely accurate or of any validity.  There are thousands of research reports that show that it is NOT!  Those are the FACTS!  I dont care about anyones opinions, I am FACT driven!  The FACT is that it brands very good and truthful people as liars.  How do I know that is a FACT?  Because it did it to me!  I cant get any better proof for myself than that!
  
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Re: Sharing My Polygraph Experience
Reply #7 - Jan 25th, 2007 at 7:44am
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Oh, one more thing Fender.  You are correct on one thing.  The polygraph is all science... JUNK SCIENCE!
  
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Re: Sharing My Polygraph Experience
Reply #8 - Jan 26th, 2007 at 9:44pm
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Well the polygraph machine does exactly what it was designed to do, it works on that fact, it's nothing more then a b/p, heart rate, breathing, and sweat monitor. It works great but it would be the same as me using a spoon to cut a steak,  wrong piece of silverware for the job. A spoon works great for soup, not for cutting steak ;o)
  
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Re: Sharing My Polygraph Experience
Reply #9 - Jan 27th, 2007 at 4:41am
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Good analogy Fender!  You are right, the poly does a good job at reading those bodily functions.  So, I would say the only thing it is really good for is to assure that someone is alive!
  
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Re: Sharing My Polygraph Experience
Reply #10 - Jan 27th, 2007 at 9:25am
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Yea, so I guess when I goto the hospital I am hooked up to a polygraph too?
  
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Re: Sharing My Polygraph Experience
Reply #11 - Jan 27th, 2007 at 8:56pm
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Ya Fender, it would sure be a great and precise way of determining that you are indeed alive or dead!
  
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Re: Sharing My Polygraph Experience
Reply #12 - Feb 16th, 2007 at 3:57am
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Here here......  
In defense to this post I would like to share my story. 
At best is clearly shows what a farce the use of lie det tests are....... simply put they destroy peoples lives and are a non conclusive piece of junk that should be tossed in the trash. 

Single mother of 2 girls. Never married father (bad violent abusive history that I sadly ended up getting sucked into). When the state took it upon its self to go after father for child support he then turned vindictive and demanded his visitation rights. I had no choice in the matter and had to comply. With in 6 months of visits my oldest child (then 6) began to show signs of sexual abuse. Then made disclosures that her father during visits had been abusing her. Visits ceased and this is where the real fight began. Aside from the sexual assault eval done on my daughter which showed abnormal tissues to areas disclosed abuse.....  
My daughter began disclosing that father had been taking pictures of her naked and even showed the therapist how she was told to pose. 
At this disclosure the police dept retained a warrant to search his home finding what the detectives called "Grooming seductive pictures along with actual naked photos found that were highly questionable" 
I was advised that there was no doubt that the father had involved my daughter in child porn and all evidence was pretty clear cut.  
Two weeks later I learn that the father has taken a lie detector test and told that ALL the questions he was asked were specifically picked by his attorney. I was even told what he was asked.. 2 times they asked him "did you touch your child’s bottom for anything other than hygienic reasons" He said "NO" and he passed the test. 
Because of this test the detectives decided to completely ignore all of the evidence plus the porn found in his home (Child porn taken of my daughter) and the prosecutors office suddenly declined to prosecute stating not enough evidence. I was told by the detective at the time that Lie detector tests were 100% conclusive.   
Father was ordered to take a sex deviancy eval which to my understanding is also based on a series of lie detector tests and there are ways deviants can pass those as well... especially if the appropriate stimuli are not used like in a case of incest. They are also not admissible (Daubert v. Merrell Dow Pharmaceuticals,) 
Link: http://www.smith-lawfirm.com/Scientific_Evidence_Brief.html ;
Immediately after that test was completed it was sealed.  Thus no one was able to see the results.  
Despite many attempts to have it unsealed the judge continued to refuse its unsealing.  
 
To make matters worse the judge sitting on the case behind all of this was under  investigations for sexual misconduct (talk about conflict of interest) and kept quashing every piece of evidence that came up in the abuse of my daughter. The judge and family support prosecutor refused to see anything else except that lie detector test as evidence kept forcing issues of visitation and a custody swap.....Yet with all of the evidence stacking up my daughter began to disclose yet another abuser  (a family member of the father's) who we later learned had previous history of sexually abusing children. It is important to note here that my daughter was disclosing what sounded like ritual abuse naming both father and one of his family members along with other people whose names she did not know but could some what describe.  
To make a long story short... despite all the evidence I was labeled a brainwasher and alienator ( oh yea.. another piece of garbage junk science designed by the late pedophile Psych Richard Gardener) thus custody was given to the father and I was barred from any contact with my daughter’s period. 
Now years later as my oldest is 19 and my youngest 16... my oldest has never once said that she was not abused nor will she say .. it didn't happen. She has had to file restraining orders on her father for assaulting her.  Fact is the subject is so traumatic for her still that she refuses to talk about any of it period. But for 6 years she made consistent disclosures to therapists and psychologists appointed by the court. Interesting to note here that each time she disclosed abuse to a newly appointed counselor the judge would remove that counselor and appoint her a new one who tried to talk her out of believing it ever happened.  
Her little sister is still living with the father absolutely miserable and wants to live with me. Father won't even allow her to speak to me. Both girls display typical behaviors of being battered and abused. 
I have been seeking an attorney to try and turn things around to get my youngest daughter home and this new attorney says..... "you really should take a lie detector test to back up your claims" 
What like all the previous evidence wasn't enough?? 
How can I even condone taking a test like that myself when I have argued all these years that the test the father took should never of been admitted as evidence.  
It seems to me that would be contradictory in my beliefs that those tests are in fact a bunch of bogus crap. 
Here’s another thought...... 
I have been through so much pain and anguish over the loss of my children and the fraudulent, abuse not only by my ex but by the very system who was supposed to protect us... and am still being harassed in various means by my ex.....that I suspect by everything I have read about those tests and how they work that if I took one and they asked me things about my kids, or the abuse I would be so overly emotional about it that I would probably fail hands down. 
There is no way I could be calm and not be an emotional wreck if they were to ask me if I brainwashed my child to say the abuse took place.... after the way the courts have treated me for trying to protect myself and my children. 
 
Sorry to go into so much detail but  to make my point I felt it necessary..  
 
In my opinion those tests are a lazy mans way of dealing with justice with out actually having to do the work to find the truth ie: fact finding, evidence and the hard work it takes to do THEIR DAM JOB AS INVESTIGATORS in the 1st place. 
Anyone who takes the results of a lie det. test (or even suggests that one be taken) over clear evidence is an absolute idiot and should be ashamed to say they have a license to practice law or sit on any bench or take the oath to uphold and protect the citizens of this country.  

  
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Re: Sharing My Polygraph Experience
Reply #13 - Feb 16th, 2007 at 6:24am
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Hey Jeg!  I am very sorry to hear about your case with you daughters.  It is very sad when this abuse truly occures and there is huge amounts of evidence that proves that it did.  You cant get any better proof than finding pornographic images of the child.  However, it is equally horrible when just the opposite happens.  I have been on the other side of this type of scenario.  My ex wife made up false allegations about me because  I was an inconvieniance to her and she was trying to hide her own secret life.  She and the "counselors" that my children went to told my kids that I was sick and told them that they needed to say these things about me so they could help me get better because if I got better they could see me more.  My kids were so desperate to see me so they said things.  NONE of it was true by any means!  For the last year I have been basicly alienated from my children all based on a lie.  However, I have huge amounts of evidence that clearly shows that my ex has lied on numerous occasions.  From what you write, I fully believe you are telling the truth and have no suspicion that you have in anyway brainwashed your children.  But, let me tell you that it does happen.  It is not a falacy.  It has happened to me!  I too took the lie detector and failed.  Isnt it amazing that a man that they found actual pictures of naked children in his home passes the thing and then a man like me that is COMPLETLY innocent can fail it!  Makes no sense to me either!  If you are telling the truth, which I believe you are, and you are easily brought to high emotions when discussing the subject, DO NOT TAKE THE POLYGRAPH!  It will NOT be accurate.  If your lawyer is telling you to do it, GET A NEW LAWYER!!!  He is NUTS!  I hope the best for you and your children, I truly do!  God Bless!
  
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Re: Sharing My Polygraph Experience
Reply #14 - Mar 1st, 2007 at 9:48am
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LieBabyCryBaby

How dare you insult someone as famous as Dr. George Matchwzimskkieswitz.  Don't you know he has appeared on such notworthy British comedies as this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqjMhNGyDyQ
  
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