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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) examiner knows I posted here!!!!!!! (Read 26859 times)
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Re: examiner knows I posted here!!!!!!!
Reply #15 - Jan 6th, 2007 at 6:43am
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The exams I've undergone since visiting this site have been conducted with examiner knowledge of my participation here...because I disclosed it.  I've had no problem telling the examiners my feeling on polygraphy which stems from my first exam in which I was false-positive.  One examiner actually tried to brush over the subject while I was offering up complete honesty.

If anything, for me, the knowledge of the procedure and interrogation techniques has helped me calm myself while being polygraphed.  I know going in what will take place, why and the proper end-result.  The one test I took in which I had no knowledge is the one I failed.  Why?  Because I allowed myself to get hyped-up and the examiner added to it ten-fold.

I pick out the relevant questions by the seriousness of the subject matter.  I couldn't care less about how many different ways an examiner is capable of re-wording the same question.  It is ineffective.  The subject matter always gives it away.

It is truly the only test I've ever heard of in which the testee is expected to refrain from study and go in blind.  That goes against everything I learned from kindergarten through 12 and beyond.
  
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Re: examiner knows I posted here!!!!!!!
Reply #16 - Jan 6th, 2007 at 6:52am
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Wallerstein wrote on Jan 5th, 2007 at 11:28pm:

Your recognition of this problem reveals the true problem behind polygraphy:  lying can result in a physiological response of some sort.  So too, though, can being anxious, being oversensitized to a question, because one's mind is racing, etc, i.e., physiological responses of the type recorded by the polygraph DO NOT NECESSARILY INDICATE an attempt by someone to deceive the polygrapher.  

Well stated, Wallerstein.  This is exactly what I wanted to say; you said it much better than I was able to.  You have debunked LBCB's pro-polygraph drivel with his own words.  Cheesy

LBCB wrote:
"The polygraph process' biggest potential weaknesses are poor examiners and misinformed or "poisoned" examinees."

No, wrong again LBCB.  The polygraph process' biggest weakness is its fundamental lack of validity.   
 



  
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Re: examiner knows I posted here!!!!!!!
Reply #17 - Jan 6th, 2007 at 7:53am
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Sudeva,

Depending on the age and education level of the polygrapher, in this case < 50 is your best bet, with a real academic degree.  I know from the polygraphers I have talked too, obviously without  their knowlege of who they were talking too, have on multiple occasions expressed the comment that they really expect most subjects (examinees), to have researched polygraphy. 
But it puts up the warning signs and doubt, but its a double edge sword for them as they really believe that no knowlege is better then some. The older polygraphers are generally not going to be too tolerant of anyone who debunks their skills and machine. The reason I say 50, is that most of us younger than 50  have reasonable to exceptional computer skills and know that knowlege and research is part of what we do. The older we get the more rigid we get and less flexible on the use and understanding of technology and information.  Even though I fully believe that the polygraph is a sham, the use of technology to research, understand and make your own decision about this machine will remain a personal one. And even though the polygraph is questionable. I believe no one likes having what they do laughed at. Which I can respect.
And the best part of this debate, I would tell that polygrapher everything. If for any reason, it forces him/her to make the judgement with a lot of stress on their shoulders, not yours.  Much success to you.

Regards ....
  

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Re: examiner knows I posted here!!!!!!!
Reply #18 - Jan 8th, 2007 at 10:45pm
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ecchasta wrote on Jan 6th, 2007 at 2:02am:
LieBabyCryBaby,
Question 1...
If lie detecting with a polygraph machine is an art, what purpose does the polygraph machine serve?
Question 2...
If lie detecting with a polygraph machine is a science, then cite a single double blind scientific study that validates it.


I think these questions are a bit off track from my explanation about the science and art of the polygraph process. As I have said before, arguing over the validity of the polygraph process gets us nowhere. I use the polygraph, and it works. I know this by experience. The pro-people use their studies, and the anti-people use theirs, but the pro-people have one thing that almost none of you anti-people has on your side, and that is experience using the process and seeing that it works, while most of you are either simply spouting off second-hand opinion, or you failed a polygraph, or both. I know you hate hearing about experience, but really, there is no substitute for experience.

Let me repeat what I said previously in this thread so we can get back on track to where I was headed:

However, if knowledge of the art can cause an examinee to focus where he or she would otherwise NOT focus, thereby resulting in failure, good intentions turn out to be a disservice. 
 
This topic starter's concerns that both his/her knowledge of the process and the polygrapher's knowledge of his/her knowledge are thus well-founded. He or she may still pass the exam. If so, it won't be because of the knowledge provided by this website, but rather in spite of it.


Whether or not the polygraph process is valid is not the issue. This topic starter was concerned about how knowledge of the polygraph process, and the examiner's knowledge that the examinee possesses that knowledge, might affect the outcome of the exam. The art of the polygraph process can be positively affected by a certain degree of ignorance on the part of the examinee. If the examinee feels that ALL of the questions are important--which is the examiner's job to convey--then the science of the polygraph will work better. Yes, there are some weaknesses in the polygraph process, and yes, knowledge of the process can magnify those weaknesses. But let's face it--the polygraph is being used, and it will continue to be used. As long as it is used--valid or not, reliable or not--why do a disservice to those who have to take the exam by continually drilling into their heads the idea that only two or three questions are of any significance so that their focus is potentially drawn only to those questions, thereby likely causing those examinees to have trouble passing the exam when they would otherwise have had no trouble?  Wouldn't it be ironic that you polygraph failures could sit there and bemoan the injustice of the polygraph process, and at the same time be the unwitting cause of others failing the polygraph, thereby effecting a sick self-fulfilling prophecy? See the point, or not?
« Last Edit: Jan 9th, 2007 at 12:10am by LieBabyCryBaby »  
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Re: examiner knows I posted here!!!!!!!
Reply #19 - Jan 9th, 2007 at 5:52am
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LieBabyCryBaby wrote on Jan 8th, 2007 at 10:45pm:
The art of the polygraph process can be positively affected by a certain degree of ignorance on the part of the examinee.... why do a disservice to those who have to take the exam by [explaining how the polygraph works]


This is one of the many reasons why most curious and intelligent people are opposed to polygraph testing – the test is biased against them! (No doubt that is why our intelligence agencies choose to use it to screen applicants)

But why stop with the benefits of ignorance?  What about the benefits of:

poor memory
willingness to lie to get what one wants
lack of reasoning skills
inability to question someone in a position of authority
inability to stand up for oneself
ability to do bad things without remorse
willingness to cheat to get what one wants
opposition to the first ammendment
etc.
« Last Edit: Jan 9th, 2007 at 6:09am by Onesimus »  
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Re: examiner knows I posted here!!!!!!!
Reply #20 - Jan 10th, 2007 at 12:46pm
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LieBabyCryBaby wrote on Jan 5th, 2007 at 10:02pm:
...When the "art" is performed correctly with any rational examinee who has not been "poisoned" by some of the information found on this website, the examinee is going to be very convinced that the "comparison" questions are equally significant to the "relevant" questions...


I find it bizarre that you should liken knowledge of the truth about polygraphy to the "poisoning" of one's mind. All too often, when an examinee admits to having tasted of the fruit of the Tree of Polygraph Knowledge and to having seen the nakedness of the polygraphers, the infuriated reaction of a vengeful Polygraph God is to cast him or her into the Outer Darkness.

Quote:
I am tired of arguing over the validity of the polygraph. That's an endless argument between those with experience using it and those who, for the most part, have never used it, but who have failed a polygraph or simply jumped on the bandwagon of others who get their knowledge second-hand rather than through any personal experience....


Perhaps we the unwashed, those of us ill-starred enough not to have been initiated into the Cult of Polygraph, are doomed never to receive gnostic revelation of the Esoteric Wisdom of the Polygraph Sages. But having examined the Gospels of Marston, Keeler, Reid, and Backster, DoDPI's Book of Numbers and Book of Rites, as well as various and sundry other epistles of the Polygraph Faithful, I for one remain a polygraph infidel. And so do America's (not to mention the world's) best scientists.
  

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Re: examiner knows I posted here!!!!!!!
Reply #21 - Jan 10th, 2007 at 5:51pm
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Perhaps we the unwashed, those of us ill-starred enough not to have been initiated into the Cult of Polygraph, are doomed never to receive gnostic revelation of the Esoteric Wisdom of the Polygraph Sages. But having examined the Gospels of Marston, Keeler, Reid, and Backster, DoDPI's Book of Numbers and Book of Rites, as well as various and sundry other epistles of the Polygraph Faithful, I for one remain a polygraph infidel. And so do America's (not to mention the world's) best scientists.


I do like this, George. Must have taken you hours to write it, but it is humorous.   Smiley

I know you anti-polygraphites like to turn every topic posted into just one more attack on the polygraph's validity. But that's not the point here. The point I've been trying to make, apparently without the readers' comprehension, is that while it is a noble goal to try to debunk what many of you consider to be "junk science," continually reinforcing the idea that only certain questions are of any importance on a polygraph exam can contribute to a self-fulfilling prophecy of failure. If a person who would otherwise not be concerned at all about a particular relevant issue is led, albeit by your good intentions, to focus on that relevant issue, then that relevant issue will naturally be the one that causes the greatest reaction. Therefore, the "knowledge" you impart to help examinees ironically contributes to their failure.  
« Last Edit: Jan 10th, 2007 at 8:37pm by LieBabyCryBaby »  
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Re: examiner knows I posted here!!!!!!!
Reply #22 - Jan 10th, 2007 at 9:18pm
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LieBabyCryBaby wrote on Jan 10th, 2007 at 5:51pm:

Therefore, the "knowledge" you impart to help examinees ironically contributes to their failure.  


Now we have a polygrapher who modifies Sir Francis Bacon's famous expression, Knowledge is Power, to "knowledge contributes to failure."  LOL!
  
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Reply #23 - Jan 10th, 2007 at 10:14pm
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meangino wrote on Jan 10th, 2007 at 9:18pm:


Now we have a polygrapher who modifies Sir Francis Bacon's famous expression, Knowledge is Power, to "knowledge contributes to failure."  LOL!


Still sidestepping the point.

As we all know, many things, not just guilt, can cause a physiological reaction. But we certainly know that one of the causes of physiological reaction during a polygraph exam is the "orienting response" caused by one question standing out from the others. When this orienting response occurs on one question and doesn't occur--or doesn't as strongly occur--on the surrounding questions, a CQT exam will be scored as positive for that question.

Countermeasures effect or lack thereof on a polygraph exam has nothing to do with my point. The validity of polygraph results or their lack of validity also has nothing to do with my point. 

Here's my point said in a different way: When ANYTHING causes a physiological reaction to occur at a particular question where there is no reaction to the surrounding questions, then that particular question will "win" the contest. By causing an examinee to believe that ONLY the relevant questions are of significance, you can cause an examinee who would otherwise not be concerned with those relevant questions to fail the exam.

Now, if you want to come back and play the tired old recording again, which you probably will rather than addressing the real point, go ahead.
  
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Re: examiner knows I posted here!!!!!!!
Reply #24 - Jan 11th, 2007 at 3:14am
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In reference to LBCB's statement:
"Still sidestepping the point."

It seems to me that your point is that the validity of polygraph should be accepted per your pronouncement that it is valid.

The point of the skeptics is that until you (someone, anyone) give proof of its validity via a double blind scientifically conducted study, it will be a junk science.  Just as chiropractors declared a hundrd years ago (also without any scientific verification) that all disease are caused by "subluxations" in the spine, polygraphers declare that lies can be detected through physical responses of the liar.

Show the proof.  I know you have it hidden somewhere!
  
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Re: examiner knows I posted here!!!!!!!
Reply #25 - Jan 11th, 2007 at 6:22pm
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ecchasta wrote on Jan 11th, 2007 at 3:14am:
In reference to LBCB's statement:
"Still sidestepping the point."

It seems to me that your point is that the validity of polygraph should be accepted per your pronouncement that it is valid.



Ecchasta,

Are you really that dense, or is it all an act? You may want the point of EVERY thread on this website to be the invalidity of the polygraph. But the point I am making in this thread . . . AGAIN . . . is that whether or not the polygraph is valid, unwittingly causing examinees to focus on only the relevant questions--because they have been told that those are the only questions that matter--can cause those examinees to respond ONLY to those questions, thereby failing the exam, when without the "knowledge" they were given on this website they probably wouldn't have had trouble with those questions at all.
  
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Re: examiner knows I posted here!!!!!!!
Reply #26 - Jan 11th, 2007 at 7:11pm
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LieBabyCryBaby wrote on Jan 11th, 2007 at 6:22pm:
...the point I am making in this thread . . . AGAIN . . . is that whether or not the polygraph is valid, unwittingly causing examinees to focus on only the relevant questions--because they have been told that those are the only questions that matter--can cause those examinees to respond ONLY to those questions, thereby failing the exam, when without the "knowledge" they were given on this website they probably wouldn't have had trouble with those questions at all.


But AntiPolygraph.org does not tell examinees that relevant questions are "the only ones that matter." Rather, we candidly explain the true rationale behind the "control" questions, physiological responses (but not answers) to which very much do matter. So those who read and understand the information presented in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector will know that in order to pass, they must respond more strongly to the "control" questions than to the relevant questions. It is not readily apparent to me why such foreknowledge of polygraph procedure would necessarily tend to cause a person to respond physiologically only to the relevant questions.
  

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Re: examiner knows I posted here!!!!!!!
Reply #27 - Jan 11th, 2007 at 8:06pm
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It is not readily apparent to me why such foreknowledge of polygraph procedure would necessarily tend to cause a person to respond physiologically only to the relevant questions.


I think it will depend on the person's personality.  In my case, when given an R/I test, I know quite clearly that responses to certain questions, especially those that can not easily be cleared up with a background investigation or ones that I have (allegedly) responded to in previous tests, will doom me to fail the polygraph test.  This draws all my attention to these questions.  Nothing else that my polygrapher says or does during the test, no matter how passionate, stupid, or humorous, matters.
  
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Re: examiner knows I posted here!!!!!!!
Reply #28 - Jan 11th, 2007 at 8:36pm
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By George, I think Onesimus has got it!

In this thread I have not been arguing the validity of the polygraph. I have not been arguing about whether a person can actually train himself well enough to fool the examiner through countermeasures. I've been frank and candid lately, and even admitted to some of the polygraph's potential weaknesses, but some of you can't accept those concessions and view an unbiased point for what it is.

My whole point has been that explaining the whole process of CQT polygraphy to potential examinees may very well cause them to focus ONLY on those relevant questions. If they are led to do that by the "knowledge" they obtained from this site, its proponents, its literature, etc., then they will almost suredly fail the polygraph or at best come up inconclusive, when without that "knowledge" they probably wouldn't have had a problem with those questions.

Knowledge is indeed power, but in this case it may very well empower examinees to fail, when without this particular "knowledge" they probably would have passed.

Just one more thing: Back when I had to take and pass polygraph exams rather than administer them, thank God I didn't know about the entire process. In fact, I deliberately avoided reading anything at all about the process. When I took those exams, I knew there was some "bullshit" going on, but I just didn't know what it was. Had I known the process, I truly believe my mind would have focused only on certain questions at the exclusion of the others, thereby causing me to either fail the exam or roll the dice by trying to fool the examiner. Knowledge may be power, but sometimes ignorance is bliss.  How's that for being candid?


  
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Re: examiner knows I posted here!!!!!!!
Reply #29 - Jan 11th, 2007 at 8:52pm
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Onesimus wrote on Jan 11th, 2007 at 8:06pm:


I think it will depend on the person's personality.  In my case, when given an R/I test, I know quite clearly that responses to certain questions, especially those that can not easily be cleared up with a background investigation or ones that I have (allegedly) responded to in previous tests, will doom me to fail the polygraph test.  This draws all my attention to these questions.  Nothing else that my polygrapher says or does during the test, no matter how passionate, stupid, or humorous, matters.


I agree that how knowledge of polygraph procedure affects an examinee's polygraph results will depend on the person's personality (among other things, such as whether the examinee consequently chooses to augment reactions to the "control" questions). But I don't see how such knowledge would necessarily tend to cause false positive outcomes in a probable-lie control question test, as LBCB suggests.

With regard to the (completely discredited) Relevant/Irrelevant technique used by NSA and CIA, even naive subjects are likely to understand that the only truly important questions are the relevant ones.
  

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