Normal Topic Call for advice (especially from polygraphers) (Read 5525 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Panda
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 7
Joined: Dec 16th, 2006
Call for advice (especially from polygraphers)
Dec 17th, 2006 at 1:06pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
I recently failed my FBI pre-employment polygraph.  Needless to say, I was pretty disappointed because I have nothing to hide.  Of all the stages in the FBI application process, this is the one I should have been most confident about.   

It wasn't, because I had heard a long time ago from a psychologist that polygraphs were about 50% accurate-just like flipping a coin to determine if someone is lying.  I didn't have any reason to doubt him, nor did I have any reason to do research on polygraphs until I decided to apply to the FBI.  At that point, I questioned my friend.  After all, why would the federal government use a tool that doesn't work, right?   

But I trusted my friend, so I looked into it a bit, mainly so that I would feel more at ease when I went to take the poly.  I didn't want to feel that I had staked my career goals on a coin toss.   

After some quick research, I read things about probable lie control questions and relevant questions, but I purposely stayed away from anything regarding scoring or countermeasures, mainly because I wanted to be able to tell the truth if asked about my research.  To be clear, by this point, I wasn't worried the machine would find me out if I lied about my research; I just prefer to be honest.  Hence the draw to an organization devoted to integrity.   

I questioned whether to take the test at all because I wondered if my knowledge would hurt me.  But I wanted (and still want) the job, and it's the next hoop in front of me.  If they want me to jump through it to get to the best job in the world, I'll do it.  I decided to trust that the FBI would not screw me as long as I just continued to tell the truth.

Well, for whatever reason, I failed the test.  Incidently, he chose poor control questions if he expected me to be uncomfortable, because I could answer several of them without reservation.  Not true in every case, but even in those cases, I still didn't believe I was LYING and I certainly didn't believe he could tell either way.  So I wasn't nervous about being 'found out', and I felt ok about my answers.  From what I know of polys, that's not a good combination. 

I REALLY wanted to trust the process and see if my normal, already pretty sensitive conscience would produce the results necessary to pass.  I think that, more than likely, my breathing patterns were indicative of depeption.  I distinctly remember taking deep breaths from time to time and even holding my breath so that I would be ready to answer the question when he finished asking it.  I know he told me to breathe normally, and I tried.  I think I just overthought it, and since I had no idea what might disqualify me, I found my breathing pretty erratic around various questions, but not because of the question itself. 

Anyway, I failed, even though I tried my best to trust the process.  I have since done more research on the polygraph to understand why I might have failed (hence the breathing theory above), but I haven't found anything that tells me what my options are other than countermeasures.  Countermeasures just aren't the route I'd like to take.  After all, I signed a form that said I wouldn't use them, so I'd like to keep my word.  I don't want to have to compromise my integrity in order to join an organization that claims to value it.  This job would mean a lot to me, but it isn't worth THAT.

I WANT to trust the process, but it didn't work for me.  I still want this job (I'm not even sure that's possible now, but I want it just the same), and my normal way of approaching a situation like this would be to approach the FBI and tell them this story to see what they would recommend.  Based on everything I've read, however, I am just an acceptable loss, since there are thousands of people waiting to take my spot.  The Bureau doesn't seem to have many options available for someone like me because it doesn't have to.   

Ok, so I know there are plenty of people on this site who will tell me that the process can't be trusted, and I tend to agree with this statement now.  What I want, however, is the opinion of some polygraphers.  You have my story now, so what would you suggest?  I still want to trust the process.  I still want to believe that the FBI won't screw me for trying to be honest, especially since I am trying to deal with this in the most honest way possible.  I am, quite simply, at a loss as to how I should proceed.

Any advice?  I'd like to hear from polygraphers, but I'd welcome suggestions from anyone.

Thanks!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box fatman1955
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 23
Joined: Jul 26th, 2006
Gender: Male
Re: Call for advice (especially from polygraphers)
Reply #1 - Dec 18th, 2006 at 3:23am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Panda, unfortunately I know how you feel. Trust me, with time this bad experience will pass, but you will always be pissed off because you told the truth and still failed. I do not know why you are looking for sympathy from polygraphist. You went through all the pre-employment phases and took the polygraph under good faith by telling the truth. If you can think back on the day you took the test and what happened inside that room There we two people inside and one was not totally honest and if you say you told the truth them do you see a problem. Do you really want to work for an agency with such Spartan ethics! The polygraph has nothing to do with the truth. It is cold to say you are now a statistic, but it is true. You can always request a retest. You can send a letter of protest. You can send a letter to your Congressman/woman or Senator to protest the unfairness for federal pre-employment polygraph. Unless you can pass a FBI pre-employment polygraph, which is unlikely, the process for employment stops here. I am sure you are a very smart & talented person, so the only advice I can give you is to pursue another career field and excel to the fullest. There are many great jobs within the Federal and civilian sector that pays a lot more money than the FBI. Do your self a favor and quite trying to justify the FBI employment system is fair. It is not. With quantity of applicants  does not always mean quality. Good luck on your future endevors.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Panda
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 7
Joined: Dec 16th, 2006
Re: Call for advice (especially from polygraphers)
Reply #2 - Dec 18th, 2006 at 10:26am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
fatman1955,

Thanks for your encouragement.  I look forward to a time when I am no longer upset about this.   

The reason I am asking the polygraphers to respond is because I believe they are like most other groups - there are some good ones, and there are some bad ones.  Many, I suspect, really believe in what they are doing, though they realize that there are those who fall victim to the test's inherent limitations.  Some of these men and women have values that are no doubt similar to my own, so I suspect that they recognize that there are people out there like us who have done nothing that would disqualify ourselves from this process (except for failing a poly) and who strive to be totally honest (albeit imperfectly).  I also suspect that they want us on their team, so I would think that, for some of them, this situation is frustrating to them as well.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I have a hard time believing that all polygraphers are blind to the evidence that the test often eliminates highly qualified individuals.  Any finally viable solution will require all sides agreeing that the current situation needs revision. 

I want to believe that there is an option available to me.  I guess all the innocent who fail want this, and desire for an option doesn't mean there is one.  This is just the way I want to respond: to take this matter to those who work on the other side of the box and see if there is something I can say or do that will resolve this.  If I need to talk to the FBI about this, I will.  I will write a letter to request a retest, and, if I receive that and fail it, I will request another.  I will also, if necessary, write a letter explaining my situation, though I'm sure that this will have little effect for my goal of becoming a Special Agent.  On second thought, it would have tremendous effect of eliminating me from the process, which is unfortunate.  Again, integrity eliminates applicants.  I am deeply troubled by this.

I wish the FBI would simply take the results of the poly into consideration and, in cases of failure, focus the background investigation on areas indicating deception.  I would welcome investigation into whatever area I failed.  I'm not sure what area that was, but whatever it was, I want them to look into it.  I know this defeats the purpose since the poly saves them money, but at what cost?  They could still gain admissions from people who believe in the test, so it is not like they would have to investigate everyone.  Anyway, that is wishful thinking....

As far as my desire to work for the FBI is concerned, I don't believe that I can judge the entire organization based on a single policy with which I disagree.  This particular policy seems to be blocking the door, but inside that door, I believe there are thousands of talented men and women who hold the same values as I do.  Many of the men and women of whom I speak are polygraphers.  Most agents, like me, don't want to do a job for the money; they want to do it because it serves a higher purpose.  They want to fight those who seek to do harm to others.  To make sure that people receive justice.  This is what I want to do with my life.  The fact that someone in power, somewhere along the way, established an unfortunate and flawed policy is not at all representative of the thousands of FBI employees who have nothing to do with making policy.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Bill Crider
Very Senior User
****
Offline



Posts: 213
Joined: Mar 26th, 2004
Re: Call for advice (especially from polygraphers)
Reply #3 - Dec 18th, 2006 at 5:59pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
I think you have 2 options...

#1-Do what I did--keep trying to play it straight and pass the test on the merits of your innocence. (I failed or inconcl. on 4 FBI tests before finally getting the boot)

#2-Find a way to get really good at CMs and try it again that way. I think the word Countermeasure is a misnomer anyway. You aren't "countering" anything, you are trying to get the correct result. It took me awhile to get to the point where I realized that there is nothing inherently wrong about changing your physiological responses on cue. Its only wrong if you are lying and trying to "beat the test"

Good Luck!

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Panda
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 7
Joined: Dec 16th, 2006
Re: Call for advice (especially from polygraphers)
Reply #4 - Dec 19th, 2006 at 2:18am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Thanks for your response, Bill.

You make a great point.  I am not trying to "beat the test;" I simply want the test to reflect my actual past behaviors.  One of my primary problems with employing countermeasures is that I signed a form that states that I will not do so.  From your statement, the question becomes, "what constitutes a countermeasure?"  If I am not trying to be deceptive, am I really countering anything?  I'll have to think on that for a while.

In any case, I am assuming that, since my original question has been widely read, that even polygraphers (many of whom may wish there were an alternative for people like us) know of no available alternative to altering one's physiological responses.   



  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Bill Crider
Very Senior User
****
Offline



Posts: 213
Joined: Mar 26th, 2004
Re: Call for advice (especially from polygraphers)
Reply #5 - Dec 19th, 2006 at 7:48am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
well, you have to figure out what you are comfortable with but for my money, If I had it to do over again, I would have practiced CMs until I was an expert and tried it. The result would have been I told the truth about never selling drugs and would have been judged so. Or I would failed or been accused of CMs and been booted, which is what happened anyway.

I just don't see anything wrong with ensuring the test looks like I am telling the truth about a question if I am in fact, TELLING THE TRUTH about the question.



  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box TT
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 1
Joined: Mar 1st, 2006
Re: Call for advice (especially from polygraphers)
Reply #6 - Dec 22nd, 2006 at 8:52pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
HI THERE, I HAVE BEEN THROUGH THE SAME THING,I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE GOING THROUGH,  I CAN TELL YOU THAT YOU WILL NEVER PASS THE FBI POLYGRAPH AGAIN. SO WRITE A LETTER AND WHEN THEY ASSIGN YOU A RETAKE JUST CANCEL IT AND MOVE ON. YOU ARE IN GOOD HANDS ON THIS SITE.  BY THE WAY I PASSED THE POLYGRAPH WITH THE CIA A YEAR PRIOR TO THE FBI TEST AND PASSED WITH FLYING COLORS SO HENCE ONE AGENCY PASSED ME AND THE OTHER DID NOT.... WHO'S RIGHT AND WHO'S WRONG, THE FBI ACCUSED ME OF FALSEFING MY APPLICATION AND FAILED ME, I HAD NO IDEA WHAT WAS HE TALKING ABOUT. I TOLD THE TRUTH AND FAILED THATS THE FBI FOR YOU ... GOOD LUCK AND DONT SUBJECT YOURSELF TO MORE SESSIONS OF POLYGRAPH......TT
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Panda
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 7
Joined: Dec 16th, 2006
Re: Call for advice (especially from polygraphers)
Reply #7 - Dec 23rd, 2006 at 2:21am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Thanks for your message, TT.  So are you saying that because I failed the first time, they will not pass me the second time no matter what?  I too find the test to be flawed, but don't the examiners have to submit whatever charts are produced to the quality assurance department, in which case, the charts ultimately determine who passes and who fails, right?  Is there an unwritten rule here?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box EosJupiter
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline


But of Course ...

Posts: 483
Location: Always Out There ......
Joined: Feb 28th, 2005
Re: Call for advice (especially from polygraphers)
Reply #8 - Dec 23rd, 2006 at 7:25am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Panda,

Historically from posts and from individuals on this BB. Not one person who has ever gone back for an FBI retest has ever been passed or hired. That being said, IMHO the FBI ordains long before the polygraphs are even given who is going to pass and who is going to fail. As they are not short of willing applicants looking to become agents. I firmly believe they use this as a culling / filtering tool without the overhead of equal opportunity hiring laws. They specifically state that if you don't pass the polygraph you can't go on.  This machine being the final judge, jury and executioner. But I would suggest that you move on and forget about it. As the retest is the FBI's way of looking credible and fair with this allowance, when it is not. Much success to you.

Regards ....
  

Theory into Reality !!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Panda
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 7
Joined: Dec 16th, 2006
Re: Call for advice (especially from polygraphers)
Reply #9 - Dec 24th, 2006 at 10:46am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Thanks for your response, EJ.

I don't doubt your statistic, as I'm sure you know a lot more about this than I do.  I wonder, however, about the cause - or rather, a cause - of this failure rate.  Certainly it might be based on some brotherhood mentality or some preestablished decision about whether to hire a particular applicant, but isn't it also reasonable to assume that someone who fails the first time simply fails for more or less the same reason on their second try?  Some who fail are, no doubt, guilty as charged, and I understand that those who are guilty and pass are fewer than those who are innocent and fail.  So, from the FBI's perspective, those who are innocent and fail are acceptable losses since this particular statistic leans in the way they desire.  For those who are guilty, perhaps they legitimately register as DI since their stress levels spike on the RQ's.  For those of us who are innocent, however, we obviously have some behavioral pattern that the FBI has categorized as indicative of deception, so they reject us.  Without some way of identifying and eliminating the pattern, it will remain in place and ultimately cause subsequent failures.  Is this not reasonable?

On the other hand, this is what I want to believe, and it is not necessarily true.  Now that I think about it, there is probably someone on this board who has attempted CM's on their second try only to be rejected for whatever reason.  Is this the case?  If so, I may very well forego any future polygraph sessions.  That would be both very disappointing and disturbing.  
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box fatman1955
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 23
Joined: Jul 26th, 2006
Gender: Male
Re: Call for advice (especially from polygraphers)
Reply #10 - Dec 24th, 2006 at 9:02pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Panda., you are in a state of denial about the polygraph. You need to ask for a re-test and I hope you get it. When you fail…and you will because no one ever passes. The only eliminating pattern is one FBI polygraph does not go against another. But, you can always keep faith in the HQ overturning your results. Good luck! By the way, there is no such thing as acceptable losses. The FBI pre-employment polygraph is very unfair. Stop trying to get absolution and making sense of the polygraph. Either re-take the polygraph test or move on. Also stop trying to make excuses for the FBI's unfair employment hiring practices. Unfortunately, what you want to believe and what is reality are drastic differences.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Panda
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 7
Joined: Dec 16th, 2006
Re: Call for advice (especially from polygraphers)
Reply #11 - Dec 25th, 2006 at 4:20am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
I wouldn't say that I'm in denial; I just haven't been fully persuaded that the FBI's tactics are that sinister.  That's not to say that I can't be persuaded, but I am simply gathering information at this point.  I am well aware that my desires are not consistent with reality.  I WISH the polygraph worked as advertised, because I'd be at Quantico right now.  Obviously, I'm not, and it sounds like a distinct possibility that it won't happen for me at all.   

As far as acceptable losses are concerned, I'm not sure what you mean when you say there is no such thing for the FBI.  I doubt very seriously that those who conduct polygraphs, given what they know of its operation, believe that its operation is infallible.  They may have confidence in the process - which includes but is not limited to the physiological readouts - but I doubt that examiners are generally so arrogant as to ignore the fact that theirs is a profession that inherently lacks certainty.  Given their task of extracting information and eliminating criminals from the applicant process, I think they are more than willing to let the most honest fall by the wayside so long as the most dishonest go too.  The most honest may very well be innocent, but they need to go in order to rid their ranks of the least honest.  The innocent and honest become acceptable losses.  When coupled with the background investigation to catch those who are guilty and make it through the poly anyway, what remains are the "mostly" honest, "mostly" innocent people.  That's probably the group they want anyway, because they probably consider either extreme to be a liability.

That, to me, is not wishful thinking.  That seems reasonable.  I'm not claiming its veracity, because truth be told, I have no idea.  This is a theory, and given what evidence I have so far, I think it is as valid as anyone else's.  After seeing more evidence, I may change my mind, and as a scientist, I am perfectly willing to do so.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box fatman1955
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 23
Joined: Jul 26th, 2006
Gender: Male
Re: Call for advice (especially from polygraphers)
Reply #12 - Dec 25th, 2006 at 9:02am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Congratulation, you have presented the best infomercial for the validity of the FBI Polygraph Program so far. I do hope all works out for you. Good luck.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Call for advice (especially from polygraphers)

Please type the characters that appear in the image. The characters must be typed in the same order, and they are case-sensitive.
Open Preview Preview

You can resize the textbox by dragging the right or bottom border.
Insert Hyperlink Insert FTP Link Insert Image Insert E-mail Insert Media Insert Table Insert Table Row Insert Table Column Insert Horizontal Rule Insert Teletype Insert Code Insert Quote Edited Superscript Subscript Insert List /me - my name Insert Marquee Insert Timestamp No Parse
Bold Italicized Underline Insert Strikethrough Highlight
                       
Change Text Color
Insert Preformatted Text Left Align Centered Right Align
resize_wb
resize_hb







Max 200000 characters. Remaining characters:
Text size: pt
More Smilies
View All Smilies
Collapse additional features Collapse/Expand additional features Smiley Wink Cheesy Grin Angry Sad Shocked Cool Huh Roll Eyes Tongue Embarrassed Lips Sealed Undecided Kiss Cry
Attachments More Attachments Allowed file types: txt doc docx ics psd pdf bmp jpe jpg jpeg gif png swf zip rar tar gz 7z odt ods mp3 mp4 wav avi mov 3gp html maff pgp gpg
Maximum Attachment size: 500000 KB
Attachment 1:
X