Hot Topic (More than 15 Replies) New to the site...THANKS TO FAILING A POLY LAST WK (Read 8623 times)
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New to the site...THANKS TO FAILING A POLY LAST WK
Dec 16th, 2006 at 6:52pm
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Well, where do I start….after many police departments turned me down due to arrests and drug experimentation when I was 16/17 (I’m now “over 30”), I found a larger department that I really thought I had a chance with.  They looked past all the crap in my earlier years after a very successful military career, including just returning from Iraq with multiple awards.  Had the interview/polygraph last week and I was amazed.  The polygrapher said that I was trying to beat the test…I was spiking all over the place.  When I told him, “I was slowing my breathing down” and he asked “Why?”  I told him the truth, “because my heart felt like it was going to blow out of my chest and that’s the first thing you do with someone having an adrenaline rush, slow their breathing down so they maintain control”  He asked me if I ever researched how to beat a polygraph. Over and over and over…my answer still remains the same, “NO, NEVER”  Well, here I am today, now researching it LOL to find out WTH he was talking about”
“Well, my machine is telling me you’re trying to beat the test”
“Sir, I’m not”
“Well, it’s either that or you have something BIG you’re not telling me, causing you to spike across the whole test”
We hashed over the questions, even letting me read the sheet, showing which ones were designed to catch lies and the control questions….over and over again, he was “trying to help” me for an hour.  
It came down to, “Well Sir, it appears that unless I change my answer and tell you that I have researched how to beat the polygraph, I won’t be ‘passed’ and move on to the next stage.”
“I’m not saying that, I just want the truth”
“I am telling you the truth and although it might help me to say I have researched it, THAT would be a lie and I have too much integrity to do that”
Well, that ended the test and I had to see my background investigator.  He had me “sign off” for a few months, and I can start the process again.
I have more integrity than 99% of the cops I know, and have worked side-by-side with, including those in combat….so this crap really confuses the hell out of me and I’m totally frustrated.  They said there is no appeal process, etc.  and although I’ve been told by countless friends, that are totally amazed I didn’t breeze through (because unfortunately I’m one of the most honest people you’ll ever meet), to get a lawyer and fight it…why?  So I can be blacklisted for life?  No thanks…..
One last thing....i know that a background investigation takes up a lot of resources, but i would think this would be the perfect opportunity for them to use the background to find out that i really am a great candidate...maybe i'm just confused...who knows....but surely frustrated.
  
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Re: New to the site...THANKS TO FAILING A POLY LAS
Reply #1 - Dec 16th, 2006 at 8:35pm
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welcome to the idiotic workd of the polygraph, with their condescending, arrogant, self-important legion of mind reading examiners.
  
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Re: New to the site...THANKS TO FAILING A POLY LAS
Reply #2 - Dec 16th, 2006 at 9:26pm
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Actually, you admit that you were in fact manipulating your breathing during the exam. I understand because I have been polygraphed, and all I wanted to do at the time was simply relax. As a soldier, you've obviously been faced with stressful moments in Iraq, and it is natural for anyone who knows how to make themself relax to focus on the breathing. You were not in the wrong in trying to relax. That is perfectly normal, and a good polygrapher would take that into account.

However, one thing you must do in a polygraph exam is follow the examiner's instructions. He was not wrong in pointing out that you were manipulating your breathing. What he was wrong about was assuming that was countermeasures and assuming that you researched the topic and were trying to mess around during the test. It is normal to see variations in breathing between the actual questioning/data collection and the times in between.  Also, once an examiner points out to the subject that his or her breathing "just isn't right," the examinee has a tendency to focus on that aspect of the exam, taking away from where the real focus should be, which is on the questions.

The point is, he was wrong and you were wrong. Once the examiner tells you to stop manipulating your breathing during the exam, you should simply stop, not continue the actions that he erroneously assumes are countermeasures.

If you were doing something and your commanding officer told you to desist, you would do it. In that polygraph room, the examiner is the commanding officer. Some commanding officers are idiots, but you still have to do what they say if you want to succeed.
  
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Re: New to the site...THANKS TO FAILING A POLY LAS
Reply #3 - Dec 16th, 2006 at 9:30pm
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Great point about the commanding officer...however, he never did question me again with the polygraph on.   

I told him that in a combat situation, you try to slow your breathing down....and i quote "If you slow your breathing down, what happens?   Your heart rate goes down (gee thanks, been in the medical field for years)...but here, your heart rate didn't go down, so your little trick didn't work"

  
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Re: New to the site...THANKS TO FAILING A POLY LAS
Reply #4 - Dec 17th, 2006 at 12:09am
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The polygraph examiner is instructing you to allow yourself to panic in a stressful situation.  Since you have the admirable quality (highly desirable in a law enforcement officer) of remaining calm in a stressful situation, you fail the polygraph.

The examiner can label it as countermeasures, or purposeful noncooperation, or whatever.  The fact remains that you failed because you couldn't or didn't conform to the polygraph examiner's ideas of how to take a supposedly scientific test.   

In my opinion, if the polygraph was worth anything, a subject would be able to pass by telling the truth.  That seems so absurdly simple I'm almost embarrassed to write it.

Breathing "improperly", thinking exciting thoughts, biting the side of your tongue, or doing long division in your head wouldn't have the slightest effect on the outcome.  Tell the truth and pass, or be deceptive and fail - those should ALWAYS be the only two possible outcomes of any test which purportedly detects deception.

Somone on this site once wrote that a polygraph is really nothing more than a test of your ability to pass a polygraph.  That certainly seems to be the case.
  

Lorsque vous utilisez un argumentum ad hominem, tout le monde sait que vous êtes intellectuellement faillite.
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Re: New to the site...THANKS TO FAILING A POLY LAS
Reply #5 - Dec 17th, 2006 at 5:03am
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Actually, I've heard it said, and seen it through personal experience, that college courses don't necessarily guage intelligence, but simply one's ability to memorize and regurgitate for an exam. I've also often heard people, especially those who come from ethnic backgrounds that don't conform to typical white bread Academia, claim that college entrance exams measure one's ability to take tests, not one's intelligence. However, I would not characterize the polygraph that way for one reason: The examiner goes into great detail in his or her instructions regarding protocol during the exam. Go against the protocol at your peril.

So, you can be a very intelligent person, but if you can't follow instructions, your common sense may be questionable.
  
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Re: New to the site...THANKS TO FAILING A POLY LAS
Reply #6 - Dec 17th, 2006 at 5:07am
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Ahhhh yes, but no one has yet to ask, "Did he tell you not to do such and such?"

NEVER did he say, "don't relax"  or  "let your heart beat out of your chest"

Sorry, but maybe you've never been in a situation where you've had a TRUE adrenaline rush...but i have...and have a LOT of experience dealing with those that have....

YOU WANNA TALK ABOUT COMMON SENSE???  First thing you do, slow their breathing down!!!  Now THAT is common sense.
  
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Re: New to the site...THANKS TO FAILING A POLY LAS
Reply #7 - Dec 17th, 2006 at 5:13am
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Actually, no, that's not common sense. That is a trained ability. Athletes learn it. Soldiers learn it. Cops learn it. There are countless self-help tapes and CDs about relaxation, and all of them focus on breathing. Good meditation requires good breathing. And it's understandable that you would attempt to control your breathing during a polygraph exam, which is undeniably a stressful situation.

Maybe the examiner totally screwed up, but if he saw your breathing was abnormal during the exam--or at least abnormal in his opinion--the normal thing would be to point that out, without dwelling on it too much, that he wanted you to breathe normally.

If you weren't breathing in one of the patterns that we polygraphers know to be indicative of countermeasures--if all you were doing was breathing slowly and trying to relax--then the polygrapher should have recognized that and not waited until after the exam to point that out. In other words, if he wasn't getting good data, he had his opportunity to point that out DURING the exam.
  
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Re: New to the site...THANKS TO FAILING A POLY LAS
Reply #8 - Dec 17th, 2006 at 6:08am
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True, true...he essentially "beat me up" about trying to beat the polygraph...which, IMHO, isn't possible and will just screw things up even more...and sine i want it so bad, in 3-6 months, i'll start the whole process over and 1) breathe however my body wants to  2) hope i get a different polygrapher  3) think of more lies i've told, so i can divulge them to the polygrapher...he didn't seem to like me saying "I don't lie" during the interview portion, prior to actually administering the exam.
  
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Re: New to the site...THANKS TO FAILING A POLY LAS
Reply #9 - Dec 18th, 2006 at 12:08am
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Actually, we polygraphers just love people like you who say they don't lie. It makes our job easier, as I'm sure one of the anti-polygraph guys will be happy to explain.
  
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Re: New to the site...THANKS TO FAILING A POLY LAS
Reply #10 - Dec 18th, 2006 at 1:22am
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Hell, i'd rather have you tell me....I had to rack my brains to think of little stupid BS lies...yes, we all lie...and that's what i told him.  But, "do i have any huge lies that are popping out at me?  No, i don't"
  
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Re: New to the site...THANKS TO FAILING A POLY LAS
Reply #11 - Dec 18th, 2006 at 6:08pm
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Ok, once a person makes the statement, during the interview stage before the test, that he or she doesn't lie, the person is much less likely to then turn around and admit to a lying past. Polygraphers don't want someone to admit, admit, admit before taking the test, unless of course they are admitting to criminal behavior. Otherwise, we want people to shut up, hold those lies inside, and as a result completely ace the test or fail miserably. We want one or the other. We don't like an inconclusive result, which is somewhat more likely if the person has both nothing to hide on the relevant issues and is hiding nothing on the other questions as well. In other words, if none of the questions are meaningful to the subject, the test won't mean as much. This generally won't happen if a person has a criminal past and is lying to the relevant issues, but it can happen if the person truly has no criminal past and is hiding absolutely nothing on any of the other questions as well. As I said, I'm sure one of the anti- guys will be happy to explain this in greater detail, with a conspiratorial, evil slant to it, but the fact is that the examiner wants you to either ace the test or fail miserably, nothing in between, and he or she will try to help you either save or hang yourself, according to what you truly deserve.

See, anti-polygraphites: Some polygraph examiners aren't afraid to speak frankly.
  
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Re: New to the site...THANKS TO FAILING A POLY LAS
Reply #12 - Dec 18th, 2006 at 7:03pm
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LieBabyCryBaby,

How do you handle it when a subject admits, admits, admits before the exam because you've warned him or her about  the severe consequences of holding back information?
  
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Re: New to the site...THANKS TO FAILING A POLY LAS
Reply #13 - Dec 18th, 2006 at 11:05pm
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You know the answer to your own question, and you attempt to bait me. Well, I don't care, Polyfool. I will respond to the question because I don't feel that my response will in any way negatively affect potential polygraph subjects. I know all of the "ins and outs" of the polygraph, and I have been tested repeatedly. A properly conducted polygraph works almost every time on me or any other basically honest person.

A polygraph depends on questions being significant to the subject. Most people have not engaged in serious criminal activity, or at least I am optimistic enough to believe that to be the case. But everyone--and I mean everyone--has lied and does lie on a consistent basis, whether that be daily, weekly, or even just monthly. Obviously some people are more honest than others. My brother, for example, is very religious, and he almost won't lie about anything, yet he feels the need to go to weekly confessional. So obviously, at least in his own mind, he feels the need to confess his "sins," and he feels that he "sins" on a regular basis. My cousin, on the other hand, lies about everything, and seems to feel no remorse for doing so. If I were testing these two individuals, I would use "universal" lie questions that would apply to both of them. Even though my cousin seems to feel no remorse for his lies, it doesn't really matter because the polygraph does not depend on a guilty conscience as many people believe. It depends on questions being significant to the subject. It operates on recognition, whether it's a "stim test" or a CQT test.

When a subject admits, admits, admits in the interview, the examiner has not done his or her job correctly. A good examiner will make honesty seem so necessary to get the job, and convince the subject that anyone who doesn't measure up to those standards isn't what the department or agency is looking for, that the subject will feel that there is no alternative other than claiming to be an honest person and the kind of person fit for the job. Then the examiner will ask the subject if he or she is honest, or if he or she is a liar. Any normal person will say that he or she is honest. The examiner will praise the subject for his or her honesty. After all of this, almost no subject is then going to turn around and admit to being a big liar. 

So you see, in a properly conducted polygraph exam, it is highly unusual for a subject to admit, admit, admit, thereby making himself or herself out to be a big liar even before the test begins. Admission to many lies during the interview stage does not make a person appear to be an honest individual, but rather a scared individual--someone who has a lying past but who is now scared when faced with the polygraph. If a person does admit, admit, admit, it is the polygrapher's job to make the person feel bad about his or her admittedly lying past. When done properly, the polygraph works almost all the time, whether or not a person admits to anything. But there is no polygrapher who wants to have a subject to whom none of the questions have any significance, and there is no polygrapher who wants to sit there and be a priest to someone's every transgression, so excessive admissions are discouraged.

  
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Re: New to the site...THANKS TO FAILING A POLY LAS
Reply #14 - Dec 19th, 2006 at 12:15am
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LieBaby,

So what if the subject cares more about his/her own integrity and being completely honest as he/she has been instructed to do and is less concerned about fitting into a particular mold just to land  the job?
  
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