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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Polygraphy as Pseudoscience (Read 13982 times)
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Re: Polygraphy as Pseudoscience
Reply #30 - May 20th, 2017 at 4:18am
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Oh, just to point out. I am not George. Call me Ark. I try to be the voice of a moderate here. I believe complete polarization is futile and boring. Look what's happened in our country recently. People who were once considered neighbors with a different political view are now considered enemies. I am not a polygraph examiner by profession, just an old kid that can't stop observing the damn universe.
« Last Edit: May 20th, 2017 at 4:39am by Ex Member »  
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Dan Mangan
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Re: Polygraphy as Pseudoscience
Reply #31 - May 20th, 2017 at 3:03pm
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Dan Mangan wrote on May 18th, 2017 at 11:31pm:
Neal, in terms of its official corporate positioning, does Converus regard polygraph as science, or pseudoscience?


No reply. Seems odd, considering the openness and enthusiasm of Neal's original post.

It's not a complicated question.

Or is it?
  

Daniel Mangan, M.A.
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Certified PCSOT Examiner

Website: www.polygraphman.com
Email: polygraphexam@gmail.com
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Wandersmann
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Re: Polygraphy as Pseudoscience
Reply #32 - May 20th, 2017 at 6:19pm
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Ex Member wrote on May 20th, 2017 at 4:18am:
Call me Ark. I try to be the voice of a moderate here.

  Sorry Ark.  No room for moderate here.  This is good versus evil.  The East Germans that tore down their wall in 1989 came to understand that.   Ruining innocent peoples' lives to make a scam living and support a scam industry is pure evil.   Angry Embarrassed Undecided Cry
  
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Re: Polygraphy as Pseudoscience
Reply #33 - May 20th, 2017 at 9:08pm
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If it had not been for the moderate thinking of Gorbachev, the wall would probably still be there.
  
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Neal Harris
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Re: Polygraphy as Pseudoscience
Reply #34 - May 21st, 2017 at 2:35am
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Ark:

Sorry for the delay in responding.  It was not due to a lack of interest.  I have triplet boys in 7th grade and twin girls in 8th grade.  I was in the mountains my boys yesterday afternoon and today.

I mentioned that I have never posted before on this site before.  I am a relative newcomer to your industry and I felt the odds of me being ridiculed for my lack of knowledge and experience were far greater than my ability to add something valuable to the debate.  My sincere desire is to learn from those of you that have divergent opinions and far more experience.

Ark, I did not understand your statement about the construct so I asked Dr. Kircher.  It is hard for me to keep up with him as well, but the gist of his viewpoint was that “Just another index of sympathetic/ parasympathetic struggle” was a "reductionist statement".  Further, he said that all psychological constructs can be explained by biological mechanisms and all biological processes can be explained by chemistry and physics.  ODT is a psychophysiological measure that distinguishes between truthful and deceptive individuals by using feature validity coefficients."

On page 440 of Andrea Webb's dissertation (Table 4), you can see a list of these feature validity coefficients (i.e. the construct).  I have also added a list of the peer-reviewed science in a separate attachment. 

I don't know if this is the construct you were looking for, and if not please reply back and I will ask again.

Thanks.
  

Webb_dissertation_Oct_08_copy.pdf ( 261 KB | 18 Downloads )
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Neal Harris
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Re: Polygraphy as Pseudoscience
Reply #35 - May 21st, 2017 at 2:44am
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Ark:

Sorry for the delay in responding.  It was not due to a lack of interest.  I have triplet boys in 7th grade and twin girls in 8th grade.  I was in the mountains my boys yesterday afternoon and today.

I mentioned that I have never posted before on this site before.  I am a relative newcomer to your industry and I felt the odds of me being ridiculed for my lack of knowledge and experience were far greater than my ability to add something valuable to the debate.  My sincere desire is to learn from those of you that have divergent opinions and far more experience.

Ark, I did not understand your statement about the construct so I asked Dr. Kircher.  It is hard for me to keep up with him as well, but the gist of his viewpoint was that “Just another index of sympathetic/ parasympathetic struggle” was a "reductionist statement".  Further, he said that all psychological constructs can be explained by biological mechanisms and all biological processes can be explained by chemistry and physics.  ODT is a psychophysiological measure that distinguishes between truthful and deceptive individuals by using feature validity coefficients."

On page 440 of Andrea Webb's dissertation (Table 4), you can see a list of these feature validity coefficients (i.e. the construct).  I have also added a list of the peer-reviewed science in a separate attachment. 

I don't know if this is the construct you were looking for, and if not please reply back and I will ask again.

Thanks.
  

Webb_dissertation_Oct_08_copy_001.pdf ( 261 KB | 27 Downloads )
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Re: Polygraphy as Pseudoscience
Reply #36 - May 21st, 2017 at 2:59am
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Quote:
the gist of his viewpoint was that “Just another index of sympathetic/ parasympathetic struggle” was a "reductionist statement".


He is very perspicacious; he is not the first one to notice my reductionist proclivity. I respect Dr. Kircher's work, so give me some time to digest this data.
  
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Re: Polygraphy as Pseudoscience
Reply #37 - May 21st, 2017 at 3:08am
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I have triplet boys in 7th grade and twin girls in 8th grade.

A very interesting probability exercise.
  
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Neal Harris
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Re: Polygraphy as Pseudoscience
Reply #38 - May 21st, 2017 at 7:03am
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Hi George:  The twins are adopted and the triplets are IVF babies, so it is not as statistically uncommon as it appears on the surface. 

It is good to see Dr. Kircher mentioned with respect.  My colleagues feel a great responsibility to protect his reputation and legacy. 

I have drafted a response to Dan about science vs, pseudoscience, but I want to sleep on it before posting.  Hopefully tomorrow.
  
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Neal Harris
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Re: Polygraphy as Pseudoscience
Reply #39 - May 21st, 2017 at 7:10am
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Oops, I meant to address my post to Ark, not George. Sorry Ark.
  
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Re: Polygraphy as Pseudoscience
Reply #40 - May 21st, 2017 at 11:12pm
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Ex Member wrote on May 20th, 2017 at 9:08pm:
If it had not been for the moderate thinking of Gorbachev, the wall would probably still be there.


Ark -  Actually, an excellent point.  You are correct.  If we could only find some moderates in the polygraph and security communities to lighten up on the Soviet-style banishment of people who have trouble with the poly.
  
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xenonman
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Re: Polygraphy as Pseudoscience
Reply #41 - May 22nd, 2017 at 9:07am
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Wandersmann wrote on May 21st, 2017 at 11:12pm:
Ex Member wrote on May 20th, 2017 at 9:08pm:
If it had not been for the moderate thinking of Gorbachev, the wall would probably still be there.


Ark -  Actually, an excellent point.  You are correct.  If we could only find some moderates in the polygraph and security communities to lighten up on the Soviet-style banishment of people who have trouble with the poly. 



Maybe that will happen on the day that Americans will finally rush and then tear down the barriers surrounding Langley, in a manner similar to that moment in 1989 when the East Berliners finally rushed the barriers which surrounded West Berlin, and also forced their way into Stasi headquarters.

Until that exalted day arrives, I don't see much hope for serious reform of any aspect of the IC. 

Unfortunately I don't see any American version of Gorby emerging on the horizon!  Sad
  

What do we call it when every employee of the Agency's Office of Security
and Office of Personnel drowns in the Potomac?   A great beginning!

The best intelligence community employee is a compromised IC employee!
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