Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Should I lie to beat the machine or tell the truth (Read 24932 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box TryingToGetAJob
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Should I lie to beat the machine or tell the truth
Nov 9th, 2006 at 3:05pm
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I am currently going to a major city for a poly test for a fire job and am not sure if I should just tell the truth and see if they will take me or beat the machine....

I tried a couple of drugs in highschool weed ectasy 2 times and I stole a used tv from a job I had when I was 17....  I am now 27 and am a adult and a responsible one at that!  Will they still hire me if I tell the truth?  What should I do?
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: Should I lie to beat the machine or tell the t
Reply #1 - Nov 9th, 2006 at 3:23pm
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I do not know whether the behavior you've described would disqualify you from employment as a municipal firefighter, though I strongly doubt it. Either way, I think those seeking positions of public trust have a civic duty to answer relevant questions truthfully.

Be aware that whether or not you choose to be completely honest with your polygrapher, your polygrapher will not be completely honest with you. Polygraphy depends on the operator lying to and otherwise deceiving the person being "tested." You'll find this trickery exposed in Chapter 3 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.
  

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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box LieBabyCryBaby
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Re: Should I lie to beat the machine or tell the t
Reply #2 - Nov 21st, 2006 at 11:04pm
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Trying,

Your errors in judgment took place when you were still a juvenile.  George may leave it open as to whether you should lie about those things, but the world is not as gray as his view of it. For such minor errors, I suggest being honest and open.  If you want a law enforcement or public service career, at least begin it with honesty.
  
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Re: Should I lie to beat the machine or tell the t
Reply #3 - Nov 24th, 2006 at 5:13pm
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LieBabyCryBaby wrote on Nov 21st, 2006 at 11:04pm:
Trying,

Your errors in judgment took place when you were still a juvenile.  George may leave it open as to whether you should lie about those things, but the world is not as gray as his view of it. For such minor errors, I suggest being honest and open.  If you want a law enforcement or public service career, at least begin it with honesty.

When I read George's post, I saw that he, as always, advised the original poster that people seeking positions of public trust have a duty to answer questions truthfully.

What part did you read that led you to conclude that George suggested that the poster "leave it open as to whether you should lie about those things"?
  

Lorsque vous utilisez un argumentum ad hominem, tout le monde sait que vous ętes intellectuellement faillite.
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Re: Should I lie to beat the machine or tell the t
Reply #4 - Nov 24th, 2006 at 8:13pm
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Sergeant,

I have always read George's policy that way, i.e. to begin a career of public trust by being honest.
  
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Re: Should I lie to beat the machine or tell the t
Reply #5 - Nov 24th, 2006 at 11:06pm
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As I've explained before, George's (and other so-called experts on this website) belief is that countermeasures really work, and that examiner's can't detect them. I don't agree with this, but the point is that George believes it. The "gray" area in which George lives is an area of rationalization because he believes he is doing a service to the world by providing "innocent" examinees with the way to beat a polygraph. It's ok in his mind--or at least justifiable--that criminals and job applicants who should fail a polygraph might use his information to get away with their crimes/lack of integrity as long as a few potential "false positives" can try to ensure that they pass the exam. Again, it's George's belief that makes his world a "gray" world. You can argue, "Well, he does say that those seeking public service jobs should be honest to the relevant questions," but that's a big stretch considering his rationalization regarding the potential misuse of the information he believes can beat the polygraph.
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: Should I lie to beat the machine or tell the t
Reply #6 - Nov 24th, 2006 at 11:13pm
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LBCB,

You told TryingToGetAJob: "George may leave it open as to whether you should lie about those things..."

Precisely how did I "leave it open?" Your credibility is on the line here.
  

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Re: Should I lie to beat the machine or tell the t
Reply #7 - Nov 24th, 2006 at 11:28pm
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Actually, George, your credibility should be on the line here. If TryingToGetAJob attempts the countermeasures you advocate on this site, that would be a lie, since his/her mistakes probably apply to the relevant issues on the test. By saying whether or not he/she chooses to be honest to the polygraph, he/she should realize that the polygrapher won't be honest to him/her, shows how you rationalize the issue, George. You might as well just say, "Lie to the polygrapher because the polygrapher will lie to you," rather than dodge around the issue with a little sentence about how people in public service should be honest to the relevant issues.
  
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Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
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Re: Should I lie to beat the machine or tell the t
Reply #8 - Nov 24th, 2006 at 11:55pm
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LieBabyCryBaby wrote on Nov 24th, 2006 at 11:28pm:
Actually, George, your credibility should be on the line here. If TryingToGetAJob attempts the countermeasures you advocate on this site, that would be a lie, since his/her mistakes probably apply to the relevant issues on the test. By saying whether or not he/she chooses to be honest to the polygraph, he/she should realize that the polygrapher won't be honest to him/her, shows how you rationalize the issue, George. You might as well just say, "Lie to the polygrapher because the polygrapher will lie to you," rather than dodge around the issue with a little sentence about how people in public service should be honest to the relevant issues.


As I mentioned directly to TryingToGetAJob, I think those seeking positions of public trust have a civic duty to answer relevant questions truthfully.

But there is every reason for those who are truthful on pre-employment polygraph examinations to employ countermeasures to protect themselves against the risk of a false positive outcome. Candor on the part of the examinee does not entail candor on the part of the examiner, and if you refuse to acknowledge that, I submit that you're not being intellectually honest.

If I were to spin your remarks in a way similar to that in which you have spun mine, I might say that because you told TryingToGetAJob "For such minor errors, I suggest being honest and open" you implicitly were saying that had he/she committed more serious errors, you would then suggest that he/she not be honest and open. But I don't think that's what you meant to say.

Can you see my point?
  

George W. Maschke
I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time.
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Re: Should I lie to beat the machine or tell the t
Reply #9 - Nov 25th, 2006 at 3:57am
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LBCB,

You are assailing George and those that support this site with aiding criminals and those not qualified to obtain a job through readily accessible information about polygraphy.  You have also labeled the majority of users of the site as liars, even by going so far as to discount the claims of those wrongly labeled liars (false positives).

May I ask you this: Why is it not standard procedure for examiners to admit up-front in screening exams whatever accuracy percentage is the accepted number by professional examiners?  Why hide the fact that, yes there is the possibility that I may incorrectly interpret your chart, labeling you a liar and effectively killing your chance of employment within this agency?

I fail to understand how you and your colleagues can speak out of both sides of your mouths, riduculing those you think are lying or withholding information while you are in fact lying and withholding information.  It is simply unethical behavior.
  
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Re: Should I lie to beat the machine or tell the t
Reply #10 - Nov 25th, 2006 at 4:55am
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day2day wrote on Nov 25th, 2006 at 3:57am:
May I ask you this: Why is it not standard procedure for examiners to admit up-front in screening exams whatever accuracy percentage is the accepted number by professional examiners?


2 comments:
Recall LBCB dogmatically stated the polygraph error rate is "1 in a million."  Accordingly, LBCB would just lie (again).
Professional examiners is an oxymoron.
  
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Re: Should I lie to beat the machine or tell the t
Reply #11 - Nov 25th, 2006 at 5:40am
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day2day wrote on Nov 25th, 2006 at 3:57am:
LBCB,
May I ask you this: Why is it not standard procedure for examiners to admit up-front in screening exams whatever accuracy percentage is the accepted number by professional examiners?


The basic reason is that the responses the polygraph measures assume that the examinee believes or can be encouraged to believe that the polygraph is highly accurate. Otherwise the examinee is presumed at greater risk of fearing the polygraph will be wrong on the relevant questions and that that fear might be sufficient to override the control.  Polygrapher's don't do this because they enjoy lying. They do it because they believe it reduces false positives. Same with setting the control question state of mind.

This also makes it somewhat difficult to have reasonable and open discussions on a public forum.

I think most current polygraphers don't go the infallible or 1 in a million route since such an overstatement may reduce the credibility of the polygrapher and hence be counterproductive.

There's an interesting PhD thesis that is fairly recent that is fairly direct in outlining current practice. While the fellow doesn't support screening polygraphy, he does support specific incident testing as well as the Conceiled Information Test generally considered significantly better. He goes into a great deal of detail on CIT polys in forensic apps and is worth reading.

Here's a segment where he discusses the CQT preliminaries and I think one can see the rationale more clearly from this:

Bruno Verschuere, PhD Thesis, 2005
Ghent University

http://users.ugent.be/~bvschuer/Introduction.pdf

Quote:
The main aim of the first or pretest phase is to convince the suspect of the extreme high accuracy of the polygraph and to discuss the formulation of the questions. The relevant questions (e.g., “Do you know who kidnapped the prime minister?”) are formulated in such a way that the suspect can unambiguously answer with “no” to all of them. The control questions are deliberately formulated more vague and general, for example “Have you ever taken anything that did not belong to you?” or “Have you ever done anything illegal?”. The examinee is maneuvered into answering “no” on these questions by suggesting that a positive answer would be indicative of guilt.


More:
http://users.ugent.be/~bvschuer/research.htm
  

Leaf my Philodenrons alone.
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Re: Should I lie to beat the machine or tell the t
Reply #12 - Nov 25th, 2006 at 10:25am
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Meaningo and Marty these are not questions which have answers I do not know.  I am looking for the  method by which polygraphers talk themselves to sleep. Wink
  
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Re: Should I lie to beat the machine or tell the t
Reply #13 - Nov 27th, 2006 at 5:49pm
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day2day wrote on Nov 25th, 2006 at 3:57am:
LBCB,

May I ask you this: Why is it not standard procedure for examiners to admit up-front in screening exams whatever accuracy percentage is the accepted number by professional examiners?  Why hide the fact that, yes there is the possibility that I may incorrectly interpret your chart, labeling you a liar and effectively killing your chance of employment within this agency?


Actually, most examiners whom I know are quite candid about the polygraph during the pre-test interview with examinees. It is quite common for examiners to tell an examinee that, although the polygraph is not perfect, it is highly accurate, and it is the best instrument available. Typically the figures we use are that the polygraph is between 85-90% accurate. This takes into account that inconclusive results are not counted because obviously they are not right or wrong, but simply inconclusive.

Also, for most agencies, Federal, state or local, the polygraph is not the only criterion used to make a hiring decision, nor should it be. Polygraph examiners are not usually in a position to decide whom to hire or not to hire. People who judge all of the criteria make that decision. But let me ask you, if you are that person making the final decision, and there are 100 job applicants who passed the polygraph, background investigation, etc., and there are a few with equal qualifications who failed the polygraph or came up inconclusive--considering how competitive the hiring process can be--whom would you be more inclined to hire?
  
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Re: Should I lie to beat the machine or tell the t
Reply #14 - Nov 27th, 2006 at 6:17pm
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Quote:
But let me ask you, if you are that person making the final decision, and there are 100 job applicants who passed the polygraph, background investigation, etc., and there are a few with equal qualifications who failed the polygraph or came up inconclusive--considering how competitive the hiring process can be--whom would you be more inclined to hire?


This is a trick question. You didn't mention how the applicant performed on their tarot card reading or what the psychics had to say about the person.

And I dont believe you when you say most examiners are candid about the test. They are deceptive about the nature of the test and the questions.

Seroiusly, though. I don't know what group you do polygrpahs for, but the FBI, for example, does consider the poly as a 100% pass/fial proposition, in direct conflict with the suggestions of the APA and most polygrpahers that I correspond with. I suspect for that reason, a great many posters on this site are victims the the federal hiring system false positives.
  
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