Normal Topic Re: failed my second poly (Read 7544 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box migaveli
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 15
Joined: May 20th, 2006
Re: failed my second poly
Jun 5th, 2006 at 7:36am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
When is your next polygraph? I recommend reading the Lie Behind the Lie Detector (it's long, so select the most useful parts like the counter-measure part). Or consider purchasing "How To Sting the Polygraph" from polygraph.com (even though he badmouths this site, unnecessarily). These should help you learn the counter-measures that should work. 

I am not speaking from experience in terms of the counter-measures...yet. I was/am in the same boat as you. I failed 2 Polygraphs at two different law enforcement agencies for things I didnt do. My reaction was the same as yours, to tell them everything i'd done (which i had already admitted to, and which werent bad). I even tried to stretch things a bit to make it seem really believable--which is silly, since i was already telling the truth! After the first polygraph with a great LE agency that i wanted to work at, i was totally depressed. 

I understand where you're coming from in terms of feeling helpless. I graduated Summa Cum Laude from a top university and have no criminal record, passed the oral board with flying colors, etc. and then got rejected by a pseudoscientific machine that ruins. I took the polygraph again and failed it a second time. Since then I took a break , but now i'm back applying to a few agencies and this time i'm being proactive about the polygraph. I plan on using counter-measures and I REALLY HOPE they work. I think i need to practice more and you should practice as much as possible. get a friend/loved one to do a practice exam or two with you (examples are given in the How To Sting the Polygraph manual and the Lie Behind the Lie Detetor book too, i think). 

All i can say is that the polygraph is complete BS and i still feel like i may never be able to be in law enforcement like i want and deserve to be, but that isn't going to prevent me from giving up hope and doing all i can to try to make it. and i think you should do the same. 

good luck and feel free to send me a PM if you want to talk more. let me know how it goes.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box underlyingtruth
Very Senior User
****
Offline



Posts: 123
Joined: Feb 2nd, 2006
Gender: Female
Re: failed my second poly
Reply #1 - Jun 5th, 2006 at 8:57am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Don't get too upset Sara.  Ask yourself, Do you really want to work somewhere that treats their people that way?

If you do, then you need to increase your reaction to the Control Questions by using mental or physical countermeasures.  You're going to have to do some reading.  You're being TOO honest.  They count on you lying about the Control Questions, so make them count... panic over the lie.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Offline


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6220
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: failed my second poly
Reply #2 - Jun 5th, 2006 at 10:05am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
sarasmith,

It is not you who are worthless, but rather polygraphy itself -- and the derelict public officials who continue to rely on this quackery for national security purposes.

If the DoD agency with which you have applied is the NSA, then you should be aware it is not uncommon for applicants to be arbitrarily accused of deception, interrogated, and brought back for one or two more polygraph sessions (for a total of up to three). Fourth and fifth polygraph sessions are not unheard of either, but are rarer as they require the approval of senior officials.

The NSA uses a polygraph technique known as the "relevant/irrelevant test" that you will find described toward the end of Chapter 3 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector. The Department of Defense Polygraph Institute knows that this technique produces a high false positive rate, but dodges responsibility with the rationalization that it all depends on what the "customer" is willing to accept.

I also recommend Ralph Perro's, "Interviewing with an Intelligence Agency, or, A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to Fort Meade":

http://www.fas.org/irp/eprint/nsa-interview.pdf

DoD agencies other than NSA use a counterintelligence-scope format called the "Test for Espionage and Sabotage," regarding which see my article, "The Lying Game." While some people may be subjected to more than one polygraph session, it seems that virtually everyone passes this technique. In fact, it appears that the only way to "fail" is to make a substantive admission. For more on this, see the message thread, How to Pass the DoD CI-scope Polygraph.
« Last Edit: Jun 5th, 2006 at 2:34pm by George W. Maschke »  

George W. Maschke
I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time.
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box NSAreject
Senior User
***
Offline



Posts: 91
Location: Maryland
Joined: Apr 22nd, 2001
Gender: Male
Re: failed my second poly
Reply #3 - Jun 5th, 2006 at 5:50pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Hey Sara,

  I have been through it may times with NSA - a lot of
their polygraphers' behavior is very inappropriate, as
with NSA affiliates, in general.  I worked there for many
years, but gave up, on my clearance reinstatement, 
after they put me in limbo.  I very well know that 
feeling of worthlessness and rejection, but it really is
not a reflection on you, just their dysfunctional system.
There is a lot of hype about NSA, but it really is not what
people think - basically, it is just another Government
agency, but with many personnel issues.  When first
starting out with NSA, back in the 1980's, I was
mystified and had that type of subservient personality
they desire; it took many years of personal growth to
get to the point of rejecting them.

If you live in the Washington, D.C. area, you could 
consider, a contractor position in the Northern Virginia
area (Tyson's Corner is very close to Maryland). There
are many more positions available that require
clearances, versus Maryland, just because of the number
of cleared Goverment agencies (CIA, NRO, DIA, FBI, NGA,
DHS).  If you have the right education and/or job skills,
many contractors may be willing to sponser your
clearance, especially, if you have a clean background.
Since you have probably already been prescreened, an
easier route to go, is to apply for a CIA Secret clearance
(no polygraph required), through a contractor; this
allows you to work on CIA contracts that someone with
a DoD TS/SCI would need to have, to qualify.  I found
this job description for a position with Unisys, as a
software engineer:

 "requires current/active DoD TS/SCI, or Secret ISA
  clearance"

The DoD, because of clearance backlogs, has
suspended processing of new Top Secret clearances.
There is a lot less "leg work" for processing of Secret,
versus Top Secret clearances.  A DoD Secret takes time
to transfer to the CIA, because non-SCI DoD clearances
do not have the family/relatives US citizenship 
requirements, as the CIA.  I have an active CIA Secret
and current CIA Top Secret clearances.  I was
downgraded to Secret, because that is all our project
requires, but I am not worried, because someone else
would have to have a DoD TS/SCI, to work at the CIA
Secret level.  I believe, that an off-site CIA Top Secret
does not always require a polygraph.  Just be very
careful, if you decide to persue the NSA clearance; if you
do not get through a third polygraph, and get a
rejection, that is put into an Intel community-wide
database, that indicates the granting and rejection of
clearances.  A failure at NSA, will affect your chances of
getting cleared at another agency.  If you have any
doubts, you can have your application withdrawn from
NSA, before you get a rejection.

But ask yourself this question - do you really want to
work for an agency that illegally gets access to our
phone records, and now, probably our Internet
activities ?  The NSA has a long history of abuses.

P.S. When polygraphers, say, "I'm here to help you", is
their "good-guy" routine, and is a total lie.  I can laugh
now, thinking back to my earlier years, believing this
B.S.  I remember one polygrapher that told me it was
him and I against the NSA !  Once you learn their little
routines, it is laughable !  Also, when they go out of the
room for ten minutes to, "talk with their supervisor",
they are watching you with the camera, and probably
going to the bathroom and getting a cup of coffee.  The
whole routine is one big bluff; that is why they are so
upset with this site.



« Last Edit: Jun 5th, 2006 at 7:06pm by NSAreject »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Wallerstein
Senior User
***
Offline



Posts: 51
Joined: Oct 6th, 2005
Re: failed my second poly
Reply #4 - Jun 5th, 2006 at 8:07pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
NSAreject,

What database are you referring to?  Any why would someone be entered into that database only after a third failure?  Why not 1 or 2?  Do "unsuitable" determinations find their way into said database? Can you be more specific?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box NSAreject
Senior User
***
Offline



Posts: 91
Location: Maryland
Joined: Apr 22nd, 2001
Gender: Male
Re: failed my second poly
Reply #5 - Jun 5th, 2006 at 8:38pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Wallerstein,

  With DoD clearances, there is the JPASS database. I
heard that there is a database, or they are working on
one, for Intel agencies to share information
(granting of/denial of clearances).  When I went into
the interview, for my current employer, the SSO was
able to look up my CIA clearance status, from his office
off-site.  CIA clearances do not show up in JPASS.
Also, I believe, that if someone refuses to
take a polygraph, they are also flagged.  If someone
withdraws their application, from further processing, I
don't know, if that is flagged.  I think one is only
screwed, if they go through the whole polygraph
process, and receive an actual rejection letter.  Even if
one gets through the polygraph, a denial could be 
based on the TS background investigation.  I got
through the polygraph, at NSA years ago, but still got a
denial, for other bullshit reasons, appealed it, and won.
Failing one, or two, polygraphs is not a rejection, until
the polygraph process is exhausted.  A lot of times,
applicants have no idea what they are risking, and NSA
is not up front about the risks involved - it is to their
advantage, to keep applicants "in the dark".

A note to Sara: You will find the DoD, NRO, CIA, and
probably most other Intel agencies much more fair to
deal with, than the NSA.  I have known people who
got outright rejections, from NSA, and were able to get
cleared through the NRO and CIA.  I had some issues,
a few years ago (that are now resolved), and when I
talked with my DoD investigator, for my TS 5-year
update, I knew to be totally honest with him; the DoD
is very fair, up to a certain point, but the key is to be
totally honest (or, they will get you on
"Personal Conduct").  From what I read, in a message
post here, someone posted their NSA rejection letter; I
believe, it was due to "Personal Conduct".  It looked
like NSA  got him, simply because they thought he was
withholding information, or not telling the truth.  At
least a DoD clearance can be appealed in a DoD 
court, but polygraph results cannot be reviewed, or
appealed.   The polygraph is an easy way out for
agencies, thus, full of abuses.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Wallerstein
Senior User
***
Offline



Posts: 51
Joined: Oct 6th, 2005
Re: failed my second poly
Reply #6 - Jun 5th, 2006 at 9:04pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Thanks for the info.  I believe there is a difference between denial of a clearance and denial based on "suitability," no?   

I ask b/c last year I was found unsuitable for CIA, with the caveat that I could reapply in a year.  This was post poly.

I will soon be going for a TS with State and am hoping my CIA experience wont kill my chances there.  What I have learned is that there is a database shared by government investigators, be it OPM, DoD, DSS, whatever, that indicates poly favorable or not favorable.  What else is out there?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box NSAreject
Senior User
***
Offline



Posts: 91
Location: Maryland
Joined: Apr 22nd, 2001
Gender: Male
Re: failed my second poly
Reply #7 - Jun 6th, 2006 at 12:54am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Wallerstein,

Yes, I believe there is a difference, because with an
outright denail of clearance, one cannot reapply. 

Just remember, be TOTALLY honest with the
investigator, and I am sure you will be fine ! What I am
not sure about, is whether NSA/CIA can deny based on
"Personal Conduct", if in their infinite wisdom, they
determine through the mystical polygraph charts, that
someone was being deceptive. 

It is rumored, that NSA has a database of disgruntled 
Intelligence Community employees (gosh, I wonder, if I
am in there).  What NSA can also do, to get rid of
current employees, is to make them take a psych test,
and of course, they fail; if you remember, this happened
to Russ Tice (NSA whistleblower).  I believe that NSA,
in the end, is going "to do it to themselves", if strong
encryption doesn't do it first, plus now that the Cold
War is over...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Re: failed my second poly

Please type the characters that appear in the image. The characters must be typed in the same order, and they are case-sensitive.
Open Preview Preview

You can resize the textbox by dragging the right or bottom border.
Insert Hyperlink Insert FTP Link Insert Image Insert E-mail Insert Media Insert Table Insert Table Row Insert Table Column Insert Horizontal Rule Insert Teletype Insert Code Insert Quote Edited Superscript Subscript Insert List /me - my name Insert Marquee Insert Timestamp No Parse
Bold Italicized Underline Insert Strikethrough Highlight
                       
Change Text Color
Insert Preformatted Text Left Align Centered Right Align
resize_wb
resize_hb







Max 200000 characters. Remaining characters:
Text size: pt
More Smilies
View All Smilies
Collapse additional features Collapse/Expand additional features Smiley Wink Cheesy Grin Angry Sad Shocked Cool Huh Roll Eyes Tongue Embarrassed Lips Sealed Undecided Kiss Cry
Attachments More Attachments Allowed file types: txt doc docx ics psd pdf bmp jpe jpg jpeg gif png swf zip rar tar gz 7z odt ods mp3 mp4 wav avi mov 3gp html maff pgp gpg
Maximum Attachment size: 500000 KB
Attachment 1:
X