Hot Topic (More than 15 Replies) WHY LIE? (Read 17043 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box retcopper
Very Senior User
****
Offline



Posts: 192
Joined: Aug 31st, 2005
Re: WHY LIE?
Reply #15 - Aug 7th, 2006 at 9:25pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
George:

Correct me if I am wrong but didnt you at one time write that you agreed that some people come here because they are guilty of a crime and think they can get information to help them mislead their polygrapher. I think that many of those peole come here for that reason so why should any polygrapher post any information that would make our job a little more difficult?

Just becaue You think that DUI questions are a waste of time doesnt make it so. When I see misinformation posted here about "how to beat the test" I just smile and read on.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box EosJupiter
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline


But of Course ...

Posts: 483
Location: Always Out There ......
Joined: Feb 28th, 2005
Re: WHY LIE?
Reply #16 - Aug 7th, 2006 at 9:35pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
retcopper wrote on Aug 7th, 2006 at 9:25pm:
George:

Correct me if I am wrong but didnt you at one time write that you agreed that some people come here because they are guilty of a crime and think they can get information to help them mislead their polygrapher. I think that many of those peole come here for that reason so why should any polygrapher post any information that would make our job a little more difficult?

Just becaue You think that DUI questions are a waste of time doesnt make it so. When I see misinformation posted here about "how to beat the test" I just smile and read on.


Retcopper,

The fact that the information posted on this website is a double edged sword is unfortunate but neccessary. It works the same way with a gun. Just because you own a weapon, doesn't mean your going out and commit a crime with it. The same goes for being knowlegeable about polygraphs. But all the while knowing that the information does have both benevolent and malevolent usages. I agree with a down side that unsavory and possible criminal intent is the reason some would come to this website. But the vast majority I firmly believe are those wronged by the polygraph and its unethical and immoral use. And these folks once knowlegeable will never fall for its use again. And the numbers grow bigger everyday on who comes to this website.

Regards ....
  

Theory into Reality !!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box G Scalabr
Global Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 358
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: WHY LIE?
Reply #17 - Aug 7th, 2006 at 9:56pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Quote:
I will tell you again, my department and many others want to make sure that we don't hire people who like to drive drunk.  DUI (of the "not caught" variety) is a routinely asked relevant question.  However, if you are so sure the question is indeed a control, then feel free to keep identifying it as such.


Nonombre, if what you say is true, your statement does nothing more than underscore what a truly unstandardized farce polygraphy is.

It is fact that many agencies including the FBI consider it an axiom that everyone who admits to driving at some point in his life and drinking alcohol at some point in his life has driven under the influence of alcohol (or at least has doubts he can make a truthful denial to this question). Thus, this is used as a “control” question, for comparing other questions to. 

Now, you tell us that you are using this question--one that has been used by agencies like the FBI as a control question for years--the very same question as a relevant question? You do nothing other than help prove that polygraphy is an unstandardized fraud with assertions like this.

Perhaps we should leave it to readers of this thread can decide for themselves what we are dealing with—a standardized, scientific “test” (albeit an imperfect one), or a complete and total fraud. 

I think I know what disinterested parties will conclude here—especially in light of things like a luminary who is lionized in the polygraph community being outed as a fake Ph. D. who received his “degree” from a diploma mill shut down by the federal government.

The emperor is buck naked, and has been for years. 
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box nonombre
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 334
Joined: Jun 18th, 2005
Re: WHY LIE?
Reply #18 - Aug 8th, 2006 at 1:34am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Quote:


The emperor is buck naked, and has been for years. 


Oh, how it must frustrate you that since the initiation of a website dedicated to the demise of polygraph, PDD testing in federal, state, and local government has instead grown by leaps and bounds...

Keep publishing guys, you are great for business...

Regards,

Nonombre 8)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Fair Chance
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 551
Joined: Oct 10th, 2002
Re: WHY LIE?
Reply #19 - Aug 8th, 2006 at 6:33am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Dear Nonombre,

I have been vocal many years ago that the use of the polygraph in federal quarters is increasing instead of decreasing.  My observation of the matter does not relate to the validity of the polygraph as much as the abdication of responsibility of federal managers and agencies.  No individual wants to be responsible for a bad hiring decision.  Let the "Polygraph" operators be responsible for decisions on security risk if they go bad.  The "5 to 10%" false positives are the calculated risk that are acceptable.

The false positives are having an effect on the finished product.  The system can afford it for now but I have the opinion that it cannot be sustained for more than three more years.  I will be around to see if you or I am correct in our observations.

Regards.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box George W. Maschke
Global Moderator
*****
Online


Make-believe science yields
make-believe security.

Posts: 6220
Joined: Sep 29th, 2000
Re: WHY LIE?
Reply #20 - Aug 8th, 2006 at 8:52am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
nonombre wrote on Aug 6th, 2006 at 3:21am:


Mr. Maschke,

Look what you have done.  You definatively announce that a question about DUI on a polygraph exam is a control question (and should therefore be manipulated in some way.)  Yet when challenged, you defend yourself by saying: ..."I find it hard to believe...it's stupid to "waste" a relevant question on drunk driving."

Mr. Maschke, this is people's LIVES here.  You risk careers and futures by the "information" you so confidently provide (e.g., the identification of a test question by one type or another).  You then defend your "information" with purely subjective assertions such as ..."I find it hard to believe?"


Nonombre,

I am keenly aware (having experienced it first hand) that people's lives may be significantly changed based on the result of the fraudulent procedure that is polygraph screening. That's why this website exists.

You make a good point: the fact that using a relevant question about driving while under the influence as a relevant question, even as federal law enforcement agencies such as the FBI are using the same question as a probable-lie "control" question, is pretty stupid doesn't necessarily mean that a local law enforcement agency such as yours wouldn't do it.

For example, even the LAPD until recently used so vague a question as, "Based on your personal bias, have you ever committed a negative act against anyone?" as a relevant question. That's pretty stupid, but they did it.

So yes, I agree that it is possible that a question generally used as a probable-lie "control" question might nonetheless be used by some agencies as a relevant question.

Quote:
Where is YOUR "double blind" study, Mr. Maschke?


The double-blind method is appropriate to studies of such questions as whether a test for deception works or not. But you wouldn't do a double-blind study to learn about polygraph formats themselves: instead, you would go to the polygraph literature, which is what we've done. For example, we know that the FBI uses a question about driving while under the influence of alcohol as a probable-lie "control" question because while we have reports from numerous applicants that this question is being asked, we also know that it is not one of the relevant questions included in DoDPI's "Law Enforcement Pre-Employment Test," the format used by all federal law enforcement agencies that rely on pre-employment polygraph screening.

Quote:
I will tell you again, my department and many others want to make sure that we don't hire people who like to drive drunk.  DUI (of the "not caught" variety) is a routenely asked relevant question.


Perhaps, but let's be candid: as a polygrapher, you have an obvious motive to lie. Although I'm not accusing you of deception, any documentation of your above claim would be welcome.

Quote:
However, if you are so sure the question is indeed a control, then feel free to keep identifying it as such.  Myself and other the other police police examiners will continue to clean up your mess.  We have for some time.


Examples?

Quote:
Sorry sir, you know I am not going to provide you with examples of question types.


Since you're an anonymous examiner with an anonymous department, why not?

Quote:
However, I will ask you again for the sake of people reading this site and taking for "gospel" the things you say.  PLEASE double check everything.  You have been wrong a lot lately.


Documentation, please?

Quote:
Mr. Maschke, whether you care to believe it or not, you have hurt the unsuspecting with your arrogant assertions and the opinions you present as unmitigated fact.  I ask you again to check your sources, look at both sides, and consider all possibilities before you advise the naive to engage in behaviors for which you have to date refused to take responsibility for...

Regards,

Nonombre


Again, if you see anything posted here by me (or anyone else)  that you believe to be false or otherwise misleading, please feel free to point it out and to explain it. If there's something you'd rather not post publicly, feel free also to send me a private message through this board, or to give me a call via Skype, etc.
  

George W. Maschke
I am generally available in the chat room from 3 AM to 3 PM Eastern time.
Tel/SMS: 1-202-810-2105 (Please use Signal Private Messenger or WhatsApp to text or call.)
E-mail/iMessage/FaceTime: antipolygraph.org@protonmail.com
Wire: @ap_org
Threema: A4PYDD5S
Personal Statement: "Too Hot of a Potato"
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box gr8dad
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 17
Joined: Jan 24th, 2007
Re: WHY LIE?
Reply #21 - Jan 24th, 2007 at 10:27am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Wow!  Nonombre sure dodged all of Cesiums questions in a hurry on Aug. 7th.  Anyone notice that the only two people that really have a problem with this site are two people that have vested interest in the polygraph and the importance for the lies about it to continue?  Tell me this nonombre.  Why is it that almost all the psychology journals and science journals I read and psychologists and psychology professors I speak to tell me the same thing?  They have no reason to lie.  They have no vested interest either way.  They simply report what their SCIENTIFIC tests result indicate.  I am yet to find one that agrees that the polygraph has even one stitch of validity.  It is inadmissable in court for a reason.  Tell me this.  If a person fails a polygraph in a criminal case, why does the detective need a confession to confirm that the test is accurate?  Heck, why do they even need a judge, jury or evidence.  The way you talk, the polygraph is sufficient to replace all of them.  Look up the term psuedo-science and compare its characteristics to the polygraph.  They are a match made in heaven! I am a survivor of a criminal false positive result from a polygraph.  Fortunately, I was able to stand strong through the several hours of a lazy detective trying to get me to confess to something I did not do.  I was also able to collect more than enough evidence to prove my innocence.  So, dont try to tell me that your machine works!  You are a liar!  I know FIRST HAND that it DOES NOT and I will do whatever it takes to make sure that everyone I meet will never fall for your lies!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
WHY LIE?

Please type the characters that appear in the image. The characters must be typed in the same order, and they are case-sensitive.
Open Preview Preview

You can resize the textbox by dragging the right or bottom border.
Insert Hyperlink Insert FTP Link Insert Image Insert E-mail Insert Media Insert Table Insert Table Row Insert Table Column Insert Horizontal Rule Insert Teletype Insert Code Insert Quote Edited Superscript Subscript Insert List /me - my name Insert Marquee Insert Timestamp No Parse
Bold Italicized Underline Insert Strikethrough Highlight
                       
Change Text Color
Insert Preformatted Text Left Align Centered Right Align
resize_wb
resize_hb







Max 200000 characters. Remaining characters:
Text size: pt
More Smilies
View All Smilies
Collapse additional features Collapse/Expand additional features Smiley Wink Cheesy Grin Angry Sad Shocked Cool Huh Roll Eyes Tongue Embarrassed Lips Sealed Undecided Kiss Cry
Attachments More Attachments Allowed file types: txt doc docx ics psd pdf bmp jpe jpg jpeg gif png swf zip rar tar gz 7z odt ods mp3 mp4 wav avi mov 3gp html maff pgp gpg
Maximum Attachment size: 500000 KB
Attachment 1:
X