Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Highly detailed Anti Polygraph research (Read 31810 times)
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box EosJupiter
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline


But of Course ...

Posts: 483
Location: Always Out There ......
Joined: Feb 28th, 2005
Highly detailed Anti Polygraph research
Feb 20th, 2006 at 9:42am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
To all concerned,

I came across this article while doing law research. It is very detailed and the authors are extremely well known and respected. One is a well known law professor. It is a great read and it really hits home about why we believe the polygraph is just wrong. And for our polygraphers, please do chime in, enough debate issues in this one for all.

Link:
http://issues.org/20.1/faigman.html

Well worth the read, and its authors can't be disputed.
If this has been posted before then I appologize for the duplication. Its still a good read.

Regards ....
  

Theory into Reality !!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Sergeant1107
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 730
Location: Connecticut, USA
Joined: May 21st, 2005
Gender: Male
Re: Highly detailed Anti Polygraph research
Reply #1 - Feb 22nd, 2006 at 6:37pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
If it has been posted here before I must have missed it.

Very good find.  Thanks for posting.
  

Lorsque vous utilisez un argumentum ad hominem, tout le monde sait que vous êtes intellectuellement faillite.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box 187Dick
New User
*
Offline



Posts: 16
Joined: Mar 11th, 2006
Re: Highly detailed Anti Polygraph research
Reply #2 - Mar 12th, 2006 at 12:27am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
The polygraph instrument is merely a tool used to detect physiology changes in a subject while being questioned about relevant criteria.  The problems arise from poorly trained or unethical examiners who fail to formulate questions properly or conduct pre-test and post-test interviews with a biased approach against the examinee.

If the use of the polygraph was as unfair as most of those on this website seem to think, then the use of "countermeasures" to beat the test would not be needed.  The truth is, the only reason for countermeasures is to conceal lies from the concerned intity, whether it be the police or a potential employer.

No system is perfect, and even the best examiner may occasionally miss countermeasure attempts; however, the system of a polygraph instrument and a well trained and ethical examiner is still one of the most accurate methods of obtaining the truth from deceptive people.   

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box EosJupiter
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline


But of Course ...

Posts: 483
Location: Always Out There ......
Joined: Feb 28th, 2005
Re: Highly detailed Anti Polygraph research
Reply #3 - Mar 12th, 2006 at 1:55am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
187Dick wrote on Mar 12th, 2006 at 12:27am:
The polygraph instrument is merely a tool used to detect physiology changes in a subject while being questioned about relevant criteria.  The problems arise from poorly trained or unethical examiners who fail to formulate questions properly or conduct pre-test and post-test interviews with a biased approach against the examinee.

If the use of the polygraph was as unfair as most of those on this website seem to think, then the use of "countermeasures" to beat the test would not be needed.  The truth is, the only reason for countermeasures is to conceal lies from the concerned intity, whether it be the police or a potential employer.

No system is perfect, and even the best examiner may occasionally miss countermeasure attempts; however, the system of a polygraph instrument and a well trained and ethical examiner is still one of the most accurate methods of obtaining the truth from deceptive people.  



187DICK,

Lets dissect your posts in sections, first off section one. Your absolutely correct its just a tool. A pressure tool, that is good for intimidating people. Knowlege of the polygraph process and the ability to ascertain Control VS Relevant questions, and lack of fear does in your pressure tool. THe NAS study specifically addressed  that an examinee with knowlege of (mental) countermeasures more than compensates for any intimidation factors. Without fear and anxiety you can't get your flight or fight responses.  1st tenant you need to make your voodoo work, Or NO FEAR means non working machine. But your attempts at stimulation are always highly laughable. 

Section two, Anyone of consequence or intellect will never walk into something such as a polygraph exam unread or unprepared. Your statements here are the old reliable stalwarts of most interrogators. Honest people should always be wary of anything where you have to prove your self honest via interrogation. THe internet and the ability to research more than compensates for your lack of candor to an examinee.  Your polygraphers schtick must have the examinee believe that you can detect deception. Without that buy in, again your physiological responses are non existant.  Tenant # 2  You have to have 100% belief that the polygraph works. Being well read and prepared mitigates this part. And knowing deep down in your soul thats its a bunch of horse dung. Well you know, no responses. 

And lastly I highly doubt that its occasionally you miss countermeasures. Grant you I will buy into that the physical type ones you can easily detect. But the mental ones I know you can't.  3rd Tenant, There has to be consequences for failure. Remember now, if  one has to take a polygraph, and if you willing to walk away and just say no, you don't even get a shot. Which is always the best choice. Any good defense lawyer would never let a person take a polygraph unless its with an examiner of his choosing, and with a high probability that he will be deemed (NDI). So you see, intellect, knowlege, preparation and audacity, will alway win the day. 

Bottomline ... Folks taking polygraphs armed with the knowlege and the ability to use it, are causing you examiners untold levels of grief. When the polygraph is stopped being used for hiring, is when this will all go away. I don't have a problem with the polygraph used in criminal investigations. So there is grounds for agreements. 

But your post was well done, and worthy of debate.

Regards ...

  

Theory into Reality !!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Bill Crider
Very Senior User
****
Offline



Posts: 213
Joined: Mar 26th, 2004
Re: Highly detailed Anti Polygraph research
Reply #4 - Mar 12th, 2006 at 2:00am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
187's argument presupposes that the use of countermeasures is only for the guilty to beat the test.

Most people that post here regularly are the victims of false positives. CMs are a way for the innocent to avoid improper accusation.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Twoblock
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 732
Location: AR.
Joined: Oct 15th, 2002
Gender: Male
Re: Highly detailed Anti Polygraph research
Reply #5 - Mar 12th, 2006 at 3:01am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
EosJupitor

I don't buy into even the physical detection. I have tested this also and the sensor pad didn't register anything above the normal uncontrollable body movements. If a polygrapher ever asked me to drop my pants to check me, that's the day I call him a f--g pervert and walk.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box nonombre
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 334
Joined: Jun 18th, 2005
Re: Highly detailed Anti Polygraph research
Reply #6 - Mar 12th, 2006 at 5:07pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Twoblock wrote on Mar 12th, 2006 at 3:01am:
EosJupitor

I have tested this also and the sensor pad didn't register anything above the normal uncontrollable body movements.


You have a sensor pad?

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box EosJupiter
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline


But of Course ...

Posts: 483
Location: Always Out There ......
Joined: Feb 28th, 2005
Re: Highly detailed Anti Polygraph research
Reply #7 - Mar 13th, 2006 at 6:55am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
nonombre wrote on Mar 12th, 2006 at 5:07pm:


You have a sensor pad?



Just for the point of reference, why settle for just a sensor pad, when a whole machine can be had for under $30.00. And it can be made workable. Oh the possibilities !!  Link follows:

http://cgi.ebay.com/LAFAYETTE-INSTRUMEN-MINI-GRAPH-POLYGRAPH-LIE-DETECTOR_W0QQit...

Or you can buy the whole detector, there were 2 LAFAYETTE Diplomat I's for sale a couple of weeks ago, one to get running, the other for spare parts. And to get them fixed should the part not work you can go to:

http://www.polygraphsales.com ;

And get any parts you need. 

Funny the 2 Diplomats seemed to have been sold. Makes one wonder who might have them.

Wink  Regards  ....
« Last Edit: Mar 13th, 2006 at 9:46am by EosJupiter »  

Theory into Reality !!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box nonombre
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 334
Joined: Jun 18th, 2005
Re: Highly detailed Anti Polygraph research
Reply #8 - Mar 14th, 2006 at 4:26am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
EosJupiter wrote on Mar 13th, 2006 at 6:55am:


Just for the point of reference, why settle for just a sensor pad, when a whole machine can be had for under $30.00. And it can be made workable. Oh the possibilities !!  Link follows:

http://cgi.ebay.com/LAFAYETTE-INSTRUMEN-MINI-GRAPH-POLYGRAPH-LIE-DETECTOR_W0QQit...

Or you can buy the whole detector, there were 2 LAFAYETTE Diplomat I's for sale a couple of weeks ago, one to get running, the other for spare parts. And to get them fixed should the part not work you can go to:

http://www.polygraphsales.com ;

And get any parts you need. 

Funny the 2 Diplomats seemed to have been sold. Makes one wonder who might have them.

Wink  Regards  ....


Forgive me for not quite letting this go, but I would really like to know...Do you personally own a polygraph movement sensor pad and if you do, what model polygraph instrument do you have it attached to?

Nonombre

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box EosJupiter
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline


But of Course ...

Posts: 483
Location: Always Out There ......
Joined: Feb 28th, 2005
Re: Highly detailed Anti Polygraph research
Reply #9 - Mar 14th, 2006 at 8:09am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
nonombre wrote on Mar 14th, 2006 at 4:26am:


Forgive me for not quite letting this go, but I would really like to know...Do you personally own a polygraph movement sensor pad and if you do, what model polygraph instrument do you have it attached to?

Nonombre



NoNombre

I don't have a pad, TwoBlock does ..... 

Regards ... 
  

Theory into Reality !!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box antrella
User
**
Offline



Posts: 40
Joined: Mar 3rd, 2006
Re: Highly detailed Anti Polygraph research
Reply #10 - Mar 14th, 2006 at 8:41am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Is this with regard to the butt sensor pad?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box EosJupiter
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline


But of Course ...

Posts: 483
Location: Always Out There ......
Joined: Feb 28th, 2005
Re: Highly detailed Anti Polygraph research
Reply #11 - Mar 19th, 2006 at 1:43am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
antrella,

Yes,  I said TwoBlock made the statement and did the research with the pad. Ask him for more info, if interested.

Regards
  

Theory into Reality !!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box nonombre
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline



Posts: 334
Joined: Jun 18th, 2005
Re: Highly detailed Anti Polygraph research
Reply #12 - Mar 19th, 2006 at 5:23am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
EosJupiter wrote on Mar 19th, 2006 at 1:43am:
antrella,

Yes,  I said TwoBlock made the statement and did the research with the pad. Ask him for more info, if interested.

Regards  


Twoblock,

Do you own a polygraph instrument?  Have you and Eosjupiter been "experimenting?"

Very interesting... Roll Eyes

Nonombre
 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box EosJupiter
Especially Senior User
*****
Offline


But of Course ...

Posts: 483
Location: Always Out There ......
Joined: Feb 28th, 2005
Re: Highly detailed Anti Polygraph research
Reply #13 - Mar 19th, 2006 at 5:51am
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
NoNombre,

I will neither confirm nor deny those allegations.

But it does make one wonder !! hehehe  Grin

And don't forget to read this threads main point too.

Link: 
http://issues.org/20.1/faigman.html ;


Regards .....
  

Theory into Reality !!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paste Member Name in Quick Reply Box Twoblock
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 732
Location: AR.
Joined: Oct 15th, 2002
Gender: Male
Re: Highly detailed Anti Polygraph research
Reply #14 - Mar 19th, 2006 at 6:36pm
Mark & QuoteQuote Print Post  
Nonombre

I had decided to stop responding to your questions (or any of your posts) because every time I ask you ligit questions you cut-a-chogi. Don't ask me which ones for you know fully well.

Actually, it's none of your business if I and EosJupitor own a Lafayette or any other make. I will say this: I arranged a poker game at my house for a test. The censor pad showed movement every time a player was bluffing.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Highly detailed Anti Polygraph research

Please type the characters that appear in the image. The characters must be typed in the same order, and they are case-sensitive.
Open Preview Preview

You can resize the textbox by dragging the right or bottom border.
Insert Hyperlink Insert FTP Link Insert Image Insert E-mail Insert Media Insert Table Insert Table Row Insert Table Column Insert Horizontal Rule Insert Teletype Insert Code Insert Quote Edited Superscript Subscript Insert List /me - my name Insert Marquee Insert Timestamp No Parse
Bold Italicized Underline Insert Strikethrough Highlight
                       
Change Text Color
Insert Preformatted Text Left Align Centered Right Align
resize_wb
resize_hb







Max 200000 characters. Remaining characters:
Text size: pt
More Smilies
View All Smilies
Collapse additional features Collapse/Expand additional features Smiley Wink Cheesy Grin Angry Sad Shocked Cool Huh Roll Eyes Tongue Embarrassed Lips Sealed Undecided Kiss Cry
Attachments More Attachments Allowed file types: txt doc docx ics psd pdf bmp jpe jpg jpeg gif png swf zip rar tar gz 7z odt ods mp3 mp4 wav avi mov 3gp html maff pgp gpg
Maximum Attachment size: 500000 KB
Attachment 1:
X